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13 inch Series... a few questions....

33K views 119 replies 18 participants last post by  DIYguy 
#1 ·
Wondering about the terminals on this...and if anyone knows the brand...

I'm pretty sure it came out of a Caterpiller lift truck. Looks in very good shape on inside.... bit dirty on outside....

As for the terminals.... my first thought was connection to field windings for series/parallel switching??....but.... I thought 4 terminals were required for this?? One is labelled BWI, another F1 - E1 (the"F1" has box around it), the other is F2 - E2 (F2 has a box around it).

The pigtail is likely thermal switch connection.... yes?

Does the symbol on the tag look familiar to anyone?

This thing will likely handle gobs of current with the big bars... 37 segment comm... but maybe not so high voltage? No interpoles.. would love to fit some though.

I'm thinking to put this in my truck, direct drive.
 

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#59 ·
Major, I know I sould not be asking this but....

If I have 2 motors a Sepex and a series, and lets say they have the exact same magnetic deminions such as Lam stack Poles, diameter, slots, ect... one is just wound SepEx and the other series.
Is it possbile that they BOTH could make the same stall torque potentially? Or will the series motor ALWAYS by nature have more stall torque?
 
#63 ·
If I have 2 motors a Sepex and a series, and lets say they have the exact same magnetic deminions such as Lam stack Poles, diameter, slots, ect... one is just wound SepEx and the other series.
Is it possbile that they BOTH could make the same stall torque potentially?
If you provide equal excitation (ampere-turns) and have equal armature current, then the torque will be the same. See that equation, T=Kt*Ia*Flux.
 
#60 · (Edited)
yes sir... I get it. I actually knew this... believe it or not.. :) (told ya I'm learning)

So, for them racing smartypants.. maximum torque comes from the most armature current you can push through without field saturation. This is likely higher in a series motor with a yoke of size X than in an interpoled motor with a yoke of size X. . edit... because there is more space....
The additional heat generated at the commutator is not a big issue since they are only running for less than 15 seconds. As long as you can keep the com from zorching..... and this is accomplished with brush advance.... allowing commutation to occur during a period of weaker field.

What about for EV applications where you want high torque... but also want to run for longer periods of time?
 
#65 ·
look what I found.... From Dennis Berube. Apparently, he runs this 13" motor up at 348 volts???

> > > After 2 months of work on the interpole 13 inch GE its ready to hit the
> > > track. Its the best motor I have built to date, by far. I realize I do not
have
> > > a lot of battery on tap but with 2006 actual motor amps out to 80 +mph
> > > there is 0 arcing. There is not even the WHITE line I like to see under
the
> > > brushes. The timing is set at . 5 degrees advance, but that may change at
> > > Firebird after a couple runs.
> > >
> > > I think it could take every bit of 4000 amps, at hi voltage.
> > >
> > > Dennis Berube
 
#67 ·
Just a couple of maybe silly questions about controlling High Voltage problems.:eek:

I was thinking about some form of motor and brush cooling for our 13 inch when we go to sand drags and wondered if gas expansion cooling with nitrogen, CO2, heilium or argon or some other gas would be a good non parasitic cooling method. Then I started to wonder if sealing off and flooding the brush area with a nobel gas might not help with arcing and zorching while the expansion was cooling things down? Maybe not require as much brush advance.

Second thought was on interpoles, I'm sure this has been thought of but can interpoles be placed on the outside of the motor barrell? If they were designed for external mounting I'm sure the proper magnetic field effect could be produced to get weakining. Wonder also if they were outside if they could be shifted to help with arcing at different rpm?

Sorry if my ignorance is showing.:eek: If they are bad or disproven ideas let me know so I don't waste time covering bad ground.

Thanks,
Jim
 
#68 ·
I was thinking about some form of motor and brush cooling for our 13 inch when we go to sand drags and wondered if gas expansion cooling with nitrogen, CO2, heilium or argon or some other gas would be a good non parasitic cooling method. Then I started to wonder if sealing off and flooding the brush area with a nobel gas might not help with arcing and zorching while the expansion was cooling things down? Maybe not require as much brush advance.
Hi Jim,

For large motors on very short runs, like under 20 seconds, effective cooling can be done between runs with forced air. Providing an atmosphere less conducive for Mr. Zorch has been discussed and may be worth pursuing. I can't tell you what to use or a good way to test it without risking the motor. But you would have to run the motor for quite a while to seat the brushes and film the comm. And likely do the same thing over again after hard runs. Which is a good idea anyway. The seating and filming process requires air with some water vapor.

Second thought was on interpoles, I'm sure this has been thought of but can interpoles be placed on the outside of the motor barrell? If they were designed for external mounting I'm sure the proper magnetic field effect could be produced to get weakining. Wonder also if they were outside if they could be shifted to help with arcing at different rpm?
Unlike the your first thought, I'd say this second thought has no merit. Those interpoles have to be inside there, afterall, they are interpoles, not outerpoles :D

major
 
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#73 ·
Berube successfully runs GE interpoled motors. His drag rail is the fastest electric 4 wheeled vehicle in the 1/4 mile, and it's one of his interpoled motors in the rocket bike that set a record for the fastest electric 1/4 mile on it's 3rd pass.
Hi David,

I thought I saw Dennis claim those two motors did not have interpoles. But it is hard to follow that guy and figure out what he talkin' about ;)

How about you ask him :p

major
 
#74 ·
Going back to my mention of available space around the inside circumference of the yoke.... obviously, there is only so much of it. How to best utilize it for maximum motor torque and still have enough left to facilitate "canceling interpole fields"....yep, it's a question...lol

So, for pole mass saturation calculations.... what is known?

How much headroom was left in my 13 motor pole design WRT saturation.. I wonder... and how much could I mill off those puppies without having too little left. I'm sure it is directly related to NI.

I'm relatively sure that the two series coils and original poles in this thing are significantly larger than what 4 coils/poles are in a typical 13" series motor. I say this because 4 such coils would not fit around this yoke (I tried). So, I know I could take off "some" amount of copper.... and some amount of pole material. I guess, the thing is, the motor designers are not modeling these things for EV applications.... so the original designs may be somewhat misleading..... ?? Ya, that could be another question... :rolleyes:

Looking at the Kostov pics... the main pole shoes have a wide surface area close to the armature. The body is slim enough to allow the entire winding to set inside of the "footprint" or "shadow" cast from the "face" of the shoe (if I can call it that... what's it called Major?) This is what I was going to do with mine...Perhaps the NI of the Kostov reduce the saturation problem? The interpole shoes are also laminated...but seem to be much thicker steel and stacked the opposite way.
 

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#75 · (Edited)
"face" of the shoe (if I can call it that... what's it called Major?)
Yeah, in motor lingo, the whole laminated piece which is bolted to the inside of the yoke (frame or housing) is called the pole shoe or sometimes the pole piece. The surface of the pole shoe which faces the main air gap towards the armature is the pole face. The part of the pole shoe around which the field coil is wrapped is the pole body. And the parts which extend out from either side of the pole body to increase the pole face surface area are called the pole tips. And even the opposite side of the pole body has a term called "pole at frame".

All of these pole parts enter into the magnetic circuit calculations as well as the yoke and most importantly, the armature. You have to consider all the parts of the magnetic circuit for a good motor design, as well as all the parts of the electric circuit design (field and armature winding) and also the interaction of the two. And then for the brushed DC motor, you have to design a commutator for the system.

major
 
#84 ·
Well, after going round and round with this motor.... looks like I am going to take a crack at making it into a decent series-only motor. I have two sets of series coils (one set of 2 from each of 2 compound wound motors.) With the help of u-know-who.... I think I know what I have to do to make this thing work well. I will be removing copper from these coils in order to get a armature to field ratio of 1.62. One set of coils will have 9 turns, the other set will have 6 turns for an average of 7.5 T/C. Opposing coils must have the same number of windings (+/- 1/2), adjacent coils may be different.

One set was easy to uncover, basically cut the Nomex and peel off. The other was unbelievable. The resin was so hard and thick. Care must be taken to not scratch the wire surface and cause turn to turn shorts. Not a problem when removing turns, you can chisel away at the outside turns. :p

The look like this now. . . OK, guess I only took pic of one of them... :rolleyes:
 

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#86 ·
Wow, somehow I missed this whole thread! :eek: Nice read though, I couldn't stop until I got here! :D I've been tossed and torn with this issue since I bought my 11" GE Sepex motor. Logic tells me to at least see what it's like manually controlling the field (with a small series controller) at low (48) volts, and then look into series field coils when I get a little more serious.

Can't wait to see how your motor runs! ;)
 
#87 ·
I thought I had better make sure of all my connections and coil wind direction before I finish all the wrapping... of course I had three done by this point. I had to temp mount them all back in the yoke and after some bending and clipping etc... I think I can finish up now. I snap a couple pics soon to show what I'm talking about. Just important to keep in mind before you get them all wrapped and dipped since you don't want to have to uncoil some bit to make a connection. This heavy copper is a bear to bend.....
 
#91 ·
Here is one of the pole shoes. You can see where I added laminations at each end. These were welded in place and buffed clean on the ends. I had extra shoes from the other motor. The armature had more length than the shoes, so, I've managed to get part of that back. This should translate into more torque I expect.
 

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#95 · (Edited)
Hey, thanks. Major was a big help and kept me on track. I'm still learning too. I know about the Helwigs, in fact I started this thread on them last year....http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59721. I got a set for my 9".

It looks like the newer designed motors use many smaller brushes. . . ?
 
#96 · (Edited)
I still have some work to do on this beast, but here it is running the brushes in. It has about 20 hours on it now. Runs nice and smooth.

Here's a shot of my "little" gem GE 11" also. :D

Figure I may as well add a pic of the 9" I did a few years ago... it's still running strong.
 

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#97 ·
Very interesting thread! Especially since I recently got a copy of Robert Rosenberg's Electric Motor Repair and started studying it. Just stumbled onto the thread and read through it all. So you ended up using the 4 series windings from the two motors to make it a series motor I guess. I would like to pick up a motor cheap to play with like this. Just read in Rosenberg about changing windings for a change in operating voltage or a change in speed. Would be fun to experiment...would need to find sources for magnet wire, insulation, varnish...better study some more first!
 
#98 ·
Hi Tom,

It was a fun and rewarding project. Yes, I managed to use the two series winding from each motor. I had to stip off some copper to get the armature to field ratio correct. Major was invaluable in this regard. I surely would have screwed it up if it were not for his directions. I did read a lot and learned a lot, but he has a lot of practical as well as theory knowledge. Perhaps the cheapest way to "experiment is to get several "scrap" motors. They are cheap and u can use the materials in them. Buying new materials is crazy expensive. I priced new field coils and I could have bought a new motor for that cost. I have quite a bit of Sil-Fos silver solder left, if you need some. :D It's also too expensive. Good luck!
 
#99 ·
Well, that's it for the big 13" for now. It's been running for more than a week off and on a bit. No brush advance system or cover bands, but it's nicely run in.
Luckily I have a second aluminum CE casting and brush assembly to play with. I really like that both end bells are alumiunum. At 321 lbs it's about 45 lbs lighter than the Warp 13". I've seen a few iterations of that beast though. . .so, who knows.

Now to get the Lenco reverse and GV unit connected. :p
 

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#105 ·
LMAO, perfect. A good warm up for a game of hockey. It's still entertainment. It's the coolest game on earth. ;) My boy got to play at the Joe Louis arena. We went to the Wings/Hurricane's game Sat night. :D
 
#106 ·
So, I'm getting ready to wedge this beast into my truck and right now it is in my basement. There is no way I can get get this thing up the stairs other than the way I got it down . . . which is in pieces. I probably could make a lifting frame and get 3 other guys to help me . . but, I've been thinking about shimming the pole shoes. If I'm going to take it apart again, I think I will get the armature checked for balance as well.

I think it will be a lot easier to place the motor, move it around so I can design and fabricate motor mounts with a couple hundred pounds removed from it. I can have the yoke, end bells only, and still mount the Lenco/gear Vendors on the back.

I'm looking for feedback on armature air gap to pole shoes. I've been doing some research and there is some info out there on the issue but nothing I can find about actually reducing the gap and by how much etc. I'm aware of the ability to increase torque production and improve efficiency. . . but I'm wondering also about negatives. Will a reduced gap have a negative impact on max rpm/volt???

Dennis Berube told me he goes as close as 0.011" . . in some cases. . . after his "machine shop work. I'm probably not going to get any secrets out of him. .
Right now, mine looks like about 3/16". I'm sure there is plenty of room to move them in . . but I don't know how far at this point.

Next point is with what. I want to use something like shim stock and drill/punch holes for the screws. This way the spacers will be captive and contact entire footprint of shoes for electrical connection to yoke. Make sense??
 

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#107 ·
So, I'm getting ready to wedge this beast into my truck and right now it is in my basement. There is no way I can get get this thing up the stairs other than the way I got it down . . . which is in pieces.
I swear I read this identical post like a year ago. Suggestions included a pallet with lots of friends, pallet with skis and a pulley-winch system, and asking Leroy Jethro Gibbs for assistance.
 
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