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840K views 2K replies 238 participants last post by  kennybobby 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hello,
I was wondering if I could just add an alternator to an ev and get a range extender. The alternator seems like a good idea, even an industrial one, now... I have no knowledge in this area whatsoever, so would anyone enlighten me?

{Note From The Administrators:
This has now become the official thread for all questions relating to using alternators/generators WITHOUT AN EXTERNAL POWER SOURCE. Call it free energy/perpetual motion/ over-unity or whatever you will. If you have a question about a series hybrid or range extender (with an ICE engine) then feel free to ask start a new thread, if you want to know about the other kind then please read this thread and the wiki first before asking questions. Cheers, mattW}
 
#459 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Well, if he was a scammer, he had the wool pulled over a lot of peoples eyes, including NATO whom he signed a contract with the day he died. A few hours later he yelled, "I have been poisoned" and ran out to the car by his brother and died.

Google Stan Meyers and how he died.
or look at this link and follow some hints off it to lead you to the full story, which I don't remember where it is at the moment.
Autopsy Report:
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg14099.html

Kinda wierd I would say if it was a scam. NATO? The same day? Maybe I am wrong.
 
#463 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

or this link, I think I gave the wrong link before. Just grabbed it out of the air.
http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm
LeTank,
Do you read through the links that you post? Both of the links you posted (and their sub links) contain articles that support my theory as much as your's.

Do you honestly believe that a car that was proven to run on only water, would only be featured in one local, small town news story?

If you do believe, why don't you send his brother some money. I'm sure he is only a "couple of months/years" away from success:D.

Keith
 
#461 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

I read once that Stan Meyer had several degrees including a Phd and even taught at a college.
I think his claims were credible, but to make things more interesting is Japan already made a car that runs off water, tea, salt water, and goes 100km on 1 liter of water. That was this spring. Wonder when we will ever never see that on the roads in usa.

I have a big Q. How many ampers can I get out of a 2000 watt generator?
Want to use a generator as a backup with gottdi's plans for ethanel
 
#464 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

I read once that Stan Meyer had several degrees including a Phd and even taught at a college.
I think his claims were credible,
So are you saying that an educated person can't be a scammer. Or are you saying that it takes an educated person to break the laws of physics?
 
#462 · (Edited)
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

First, assuming you don't know Ohms Law and the equation to get Amps from Watts, I will just make it easy. Since, it does save time and I am lazy at the moment too. haha

Here is a link to help you out with any Watt to Amps, Amps to Watts, Volts to Watts, etc. Just fill in the boxes you know and hit "calculate".
Saves some headaches as well. Plus you don't have to remember the equation or how to flip flop it around to get either answer.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/ohmslaw.htm

Hope that helps.

About the Japan H20 car, was just looking at that last night on youtube, but didn't save it or post it. So, I went back and looked it up again.
Here is the link for the Japan H20 car you were mentioning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jivb7lupDNU

HighTech,
Oh, I should add that if you are stating something others may be interested in researching more about, please post the link or a link about the topic in which you are discussing (which I did for you). It just helps the "proof of concept" case much better. Not trying to be mean, just pointing that out. It helps a ton on this thread.
 
#465 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

I agree to some extent. Good points. It can go both ways, but it takes either someone to prove he was right or prove he was wrong.

As for the HHO, it can work as there are HHO vehicles out there running off of HHO, even US Auto Companies have developed them, but with HHO fuel cells. However, having an HHO fuel cell to run off was expensive and still was just like putting fuel in the car, money out of your pocket and the same thing we were all trying to get away from each day. Saving money by having an EV is just the way to go.

As for trying to build a good enough unit to put out enough.."enough" HHO to run a generator is up in the air. Looks like it could be done if you had your own HHO fuel cell setup, which then you would still need to use solar or wind to create the HHO from a home base unit. Probably too much in costs to even tinker with.

However, there are vids and HHO units you can buy that produce HHO, but they may only be enough to idle your vehicle or maybe they do work better than we all think. I know from Stans version he was using anywhere from 30 amps to 60 amps to get enough HHO. That is a lot of drain on the common battery and a short time to run anything from the unit. Then again, who knows, maybe someone has perfected it in their own garage and it is a great way to go. More research needs to be done on this to prove it works or doesn't work, either way.

The ethanol ghottdi pointed out is sufficient enough for the job and requires less money to invest in to produce ethanol to run a generator. That is probably what I will be looking more towards for a fuel source for my generator.

Thanks Ghottdi for correcting me on my theory on how much ethanol would cost, since what you provided seems to be cost effective and worthwhile to invest such a small amout into to have a viable fuel source for a generator setup in an EV as a backup.
 
#466 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Oh, I wanted to add that I found a cool video on getting energy from air. haha
Anway, check it out and tell me what you think. I am going to try it out just for fun since I have all the parts laying around here. Will try to see how many different versions I can create to get a little more amps. Right now they are only getting milliamps from such units. There are several posted on youtube.
Here is one of the links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYYysBEwA6w

Kind of fun to tinker with. Is useful in charging a cell phone anyway.

And another really cool idea to have light in your home in darker areas during the daytime. I have to give the inventor some credit for this idea. Cheap, easy and it works. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS3764DmIP4&feature=related
 
G
#467 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Well I have to say bunk to the first one and way cool for the second one. I can attach my meter to the ground and to a tree leaf and get some voltage and milliamps. So I guess it is free energy but not enough to do anything with except to say it's free and it's recordable.

But that sky light idea is pretty sweet. It is a different way to make a skylight and yes skylights work and can help save electric use. Making holes through the roof though is not exactly what I want to do. Maybe some plastic tubes can be used in the same fashion rather than just water in a bottle. Maybe water filled long tubes and have a tube the length of the roof to the floor. Long vertical skylight. : )


Pete : )


Oh, I wanted to add that I found a cool video on getting energy from air. haha
Anway, check it out and tell me what you think. I am going to try it out just for fun since I have all the parts laying around here. Will try to see how many different versions I can create to get a little more amps. Right now they are only getting milliamps from such units. There are several posted on youtube.
Here is one of the links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYYysBEwA6w

Kind of fun to tinker with. Is useful in charging a cell phone anyway.

And another really cool idea to have light in your home in darker areas during the daytime. I have to give the inventor some credit for this idea. Cheap, easy and it works. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS3764DmIP4&feature=related
 
#468 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

I found some more links just for fun.
Then I will get back to EV's. haha

I am just posting these for fun only. Just to add some fun to the thread and give ideas to play with since winter is here.
Nothing serious here, just good fun.

Some wild and fun ideas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaLcyFg3BXA&NR=1

A cool water to energy idea at MIT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A&feature=related

A much better video about the neat little free energy from air circuit.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/915226/free_electricity_from_thin_air/

This may be a cool thing to work with a rectennea for capturing microwaves. I can't remember who brought that up on here. Might be fun to play with.

Ideas may be small, but fun. If anything at least you can charge your phone in your EV and save your batteries...if you don't want to pay for a solar panel.

Ok, maybe I am proven wrong about the cost of HHO to run a car with.
Here is a short vid of a South Carolina Police department running their vehicles on tap water that is converted to HHO to get an extra few miles per gallon.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1696457/shock_police_uses_water_instead_of_gas_for_all_cars/

GM Hy-wire HHO salt water run vehicle.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1324927/gm_hy_wire_car_that_runs_on_hydrogen/

This mans car Runs only on water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE68OsG3Vpc

So maybe there is something good to the HHO concept. If they can run a car, we should be able to run a generator for our EV.
I guess I will keep working on my little HHO concept to see if I can get my generator to run.

Show at Las Vegas, hho units that charge laptops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJbI7WIoEyg

Why don't we have these already available? I want one. haha
:)
 
#470 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Great video showing nanosafe batteries, charge in 10 minutes and a range of 120 miles per charge on an SUV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCkXwwEC2p8&feature=related

I was looking for vids on nanosafe batteries, this is short, but nice to see.
 
#472 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Great video showing nanosafe batteries, charge in 10 minutes and a range of 120 miles per charge on an SUV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCkXwwEC2p8&feature=related

I was looking for vids on nanosafe batteries, this is short, but nice to see.

Even if these do work, they wont work for at home. If you want to go 120 miles on a charge and your vehicle consumes 250 w/mile you need to be able to charge 30,000 watts ( 30 Kw ) in 10 minutes. You need....180 Kw/hr service. I don't know about where you live, but here i have a 100 amp service, that's only 24 Kw service. Nowhere the power needed to charge these. You'd have to charge for ever an hour, setting aside the household usage. I think you'd be looking at 2 to 3 hours charge time.

You'd need a 750 amp service, not counting loss's for conversions.To charge those in 10 minutes. Also, the weight of an SUV, I don't know what the watt/mile is but I doubt its as low as 250 w/mile.
 
#471 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

I think your looking in the wrong direction LeTank. I've been down this road myself, and honestly its a waste of time. Posting on a site, any website about perpetual motion, or and derivitave of it is pointless. As you've seen you will get numerous arguments against you and very little support for you.

If your looking to extend the range of your EV, or "possibly" extend it any distance perhaps you should look into thermoelectric modules. I don't know a lot about these, however generally the power generating capacity is approx 10% ( E.G. the 60 watt module in your t-electric cooler should put out approximatly 6 watts ). If a car requires 15 Kw to run 100 KM, you'd require 2500 of these modules to generate enough power to make your EV inlimited mileage. Normally you use a heat sync with these, however I think ( could be wrong ) that the cooling from the air movement over the body of the vehicle should be sufficient. If memory serves a 60 watt module is about 3" by 3" so you'd have to cover a minimum of 52 sqft of your vehicle in these modules. Now I should note I've never tested this idea, I had plans to test a homemade module attacked to the top of a canopy for my truck but it met a snowbank with some nasty rocks last winter...lol. Also by making body panels out of these you wouldn't be increasing any drag. you could also use them as acooling type system around your electric motor, it should work...i read an article a while back that was talking about replacing the current altinators in a ICE scenerio with thermoelectric generators attached to exhaughst. Also this technology is employed in homes, using panels in doors, windows,etc to generate electricity from the temperature difference between outside and inside. IF this is a viable method, why hasn't it been done? The oil industy...here alone I can think of 4 provinces that would be almost bankrupt without the oil industry.

As per perpetual motion, like I said I've done a lot of research into this. Most perpetual motion devices are hoax's, scams,etc like the others here have said. However an arguement for your side here is nature upon itself is perpetual. Essentially the earth is a huge perpetual motion device....but that is an arguement for another day. What I would do is look into hydroelectric dams, they are in essence a perpetual motion device. During hours of low consumption in some locations they use the power they generated from the water to pump it from the lower resevoir back into the upper. IF this was expelling more energy that it created they would not do this.

Wind power for EV, has anyone here actually done the calculations? A giant wind turbine is out of the question for both legal and safety reasons, however a design simular to a squirl cage under the hood of your vehicle. Someone should overlook the calculations at 100 KM/hr..I think you'll find that the potential power output is much more than the power consumption. Off hand I believe the potential power is 40 to 50 KW/hr. The claims here that it will increase the drag of the vehicle IMO are bogus and unwarrented. If you are using a vehicle and NOT modifing the body in any what soever way then the drag should no change. However, if you are channeling the air ( which passes into the grill with an ICE ) through a chamber and allowing it to escape you should in fact be reducing the amount of drag. And in the event that you DID increase drag, you cant tell me its going to take an extra 67HP electric motor to offset it? The rough equivalent to gas is 1:4 isn't it. That would be saying it would take an additional 268 HP ( with an ICE ) to move the vehicle??? This is highly unlikely. This is why IMO the claims that it will not work are bogus.

As I'm sure I'll get slammed here for what I've said, I'd almost be dissapointed if I didn't...lol. I do not mean to offend anyone and have no intentions of getting into any pointless yes/no arguements. These are my opinions and mine alone. If you wish to challenge them, offer me proof as to why I'm wrong and stay open minded. And please remember that simple flight was once impossible; the "laws of nature" did not allow it anyone claiming they could fly were fanatics!!
 
#479 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Wind power for EV, has anyone here actually done the calculations? A giant wind turbine is out of the question for both legal and safety reasons, however a design simular to a squirl cage under the hood of your vehicle. Someone should overlook the calculations at 100 KM/hr..I think you'll find that the potential power output is much more than the power consumption. Off hand I believe the potential power is 40 to 50 KW/hr. The claims here that it will increase the drag of the vehicle IMO are bogus and unwarrented. If you are using a vehicle and NOT modifing the body in any what soever way then the drag should no change. However, if you are channeling the air ( which passes into the grill with an ICE ) through a chamber and allowing it to escape you should in fact be reducing the amount of drag. And in the event that you DID increase drag, you cant tell me its going to take an extra 67HP electric motor to offset it? The rough equivalent to gas is 1:4 isn't it. That would be saying it would take an additional 268 HP ( with an ICE ) to move the vehicle??? This is highly unlikely. This is why IMO the claims that it will not work are bogus.
Where did you get your numbers from? 50Kw from a turbine mounted behind the grill??? I would suggest you would get more like 50w.
 
#474 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Well, not much is said about such a charging unit for the nanosafe batteries so it would have to charge with current power grid systems. Give or take a few hours time to charge. Even if it was an overnight charge, it is still worth the extra miles per charge.

Here is altairnano's website. I might beg them to post prices for their 35kwh battery just so we have an idea in price range.

http://www.altairnano.com/profiles/...1&BzID=546&to=cp&Nav=0&LangID=1&s=236&ID=9294
 
#475 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

I looked at there site, I honestly think the quick charge feauture is bullshit. They claim 3 stops for a quick charge using there special high voltage charger. Like I pointed out before, you'd need a 180 KW service to do this. So unless they stopped at 3 small power plants I seriously have my doubts about the quick charge here.

Now that beingsaid I read further :

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/10/lithium-ion-ele.html

Read down to this,
"
Posted by: domenick | Oct 9, 2007 8:05:25 AM
rick;
I too think that Altairnano batteries have a lot to offer for PHEVs and specially BEVs. Safety + Very fast (10 minutes) multiple (25000+) charge-discharge is exactly what is required.
Let's hope that the current price of about $1000+/KWh will drop to about $300/KWh when mass produced in very large factories in countries with lower labour cost by (2010-2012?)
Will competition do better? and cheaper? Time will tell"

That being said, these batteries may be a worthy technology, but I seriously doubt anyone is going to want to spend 18 - 24 000.00 on a battery back. I mean the simple deep cycles are running what 150.00 ea from your local RV dealership..they hold a capacity of 2 - 3 KW ea. You could buy 120 of these for the same price. Giving yourself a 360 KW reserve.

A normal electric vehicle takes 5 - 8 hours to charge right? with a 18Kw pack, your looking at 2 - 2.5 kw/hr. Now if your running 144 volts, theoretically you should be able to pump a "MAX" of 100 amps/hr into these....thats 14.4 Kw ( your cost would only be 1800.00 ). As I pointed out earlier your maximum capacity charging from your house is going to be only 24Kw with a 100 amp service. And if you wanted to match this, you could put 24 batteries and spend 3,600.00 You could charge this completely within say what 1.2 Hrs. You'd need a custom built charger, and I have no idea what the weight would do for the watt/mile ratio there. But you'd have a 28.8 Kw bat bank, you'd have a range ( at 100% depletion ) of 115 miles ( this doesn't take into consideration the difference of the weight of the batteries ). and the same time to charge.

Even if they drop to 300.00 per KW, to match a 28.8 Kw bat bank its still going to cost you 8,640.00. thats still double conventional batteries.

From the sounds of it you need a vehicle with the range of an ICE. I am in the same predicament...I want a truck, but I have to be able to seat 8. ( yes its going to be custom built...lol ) The point is, you would be better off building a series hybrid. Eliminate the battery bank all togethor...use an ICE as a generator, to run your vacuum for the brakes,etc. There are many possible generators in this scenerio...if your worried about poluting the planet, you could use an ICE converted to run on propane, or if you don't want to pay for fuel you could build a gobar gas generator and run the engine off of that.

Dont get me wrong, I'm all for a pure electric vehicle that has unlimited mileage, BUT for a vehicle that todays person uses i highly doubt you will see one any time soon, not one the meets the needs of todays person ( e.g. like myself, I need room for 8...lol ).
 
#476 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

http://www.forbes.com/technology/2008/01/12/electric-cars-nanotech-tech-sciences-cz_as_0112nano.html

"Altair's designers say that the key advantage of their battery is that it can in principle be recharged in an unprecedented 10 minutes. Making this a reality, however, depends on building out a network of high-voltage charging stations. That may be easy for one of Phoenix Motor's first customers, namely Pacific, Gas & Electric (nyse: PCG - news - people ). PG&E owns its grid. Others, however, may find setting up the logistics for recharging stations more daunting.
Still, enthusiasm is high within Altair, which raised $40 million from Dubai investment company Al Yousuf in November, even as Altair reported operating losses of $17 million for the first nine months of 2007."

It looks like I was right. They need special charging stations, i honestly dont see how they could have tested this vehicle like they claim when these stations dont even exist.

And a 17 million dollar loss....why would they have this when they supposidly have a proven product?

these points send off the warning bells in my head here....
 
#477 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Yea, the charging would have to be done overnight. If the cost of the batteries or per/kwh was cheaper then it would be worth the money at say $300/kwh. Seems as more auto maker start to use the nanosafe batteries the prices will soon go down.

I thought RonnMotors had an electric car, perhaps it was just a concept car. I looked up their site and found they made an HHO car instead. (Gas and HHO assisted.) I like the style, but if I remember right the same model was going to be their electric car hit of the year, but they must have scratched it and put in the 450hp gas/hho hybrid instead.
This is kind of heart breaking since the car is a sweet looking car and having it electric would have been a nice starter for their company to go electric.

http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/
 
#478 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

I found a great PDF file that explains HHO, talks about its ups and downs and provides a large amount of DIY plans to build your own. Of course the name on the darn thing is smacks Booster of all crazy things.
Anyway, besides the stupid name, the info is great. Check it out and if you are interested in an HHO run generator for your EV, this looks nice to research.

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf
 
#482 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

I found a great PDF file that explains HHO, talks about its ups and downs and provides a large amount of DIY plans to build your own. Of course the name on the darn thing is smacks Booster of all crazy things.
Anyway, besides the stupid name, the info is great. Check it out and if you are interested in an HHO run generator for your EV, this looks nice to research.

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

I skimmed the PDF. do you remember a number of years ago the guy in the states that claimed he built a carburator that could run on water? this is it basically. I have a few problems with this booster :

1. I didn't see the MPG increase claimed anywhere ( mind you ionly skimmed it ). But, they are suggesting you use 20 to 30 amps of power. at 13.8 vdc. This is 276 - 414 watts of power. A gas engine uses 1/2 lb of fuel per HP output. 414 watts is .55 HP. If memory serves gas weighs 6lbs per gallon. Therefor 1/2 lb is .6 Litres. your going to consume .3 L to run this device.

2. Its unpressurized. A good comparison is propane, methane, gobar gas, natural gas,etc. they are all pressurized

3. Its unregulated. They are using electrolysis to create hydrogen and then dump it raw and unregulated into the engine.

4. Other than the obvious safety reasons, they suggest you modify the output voltage of the oxygen sensor because the engine will think its running to clean...with the risk of sounding like an ass this is bright flaming bullshit! I don't even know where to start...hmmm. Ok, if this is done and this is if you could get sufficient pressure to inject into the engine to do anything, first off I'd hope there is a regulator on there. without it well..please dont come around my house..lol. The ignition of hydrogen will increase the pressures inside your engine exponentially...heat is heat this doesn't cool the engine at all. Honestly IMO with sufficient pressure your engine is going to explode. Space shuttles use hydrogen because of the stored energy, if gas were enough forthem they would use it. As for the engine running to clean, I dont understand this..the engine wants to run clean. The oxygen sensor calculates the amount of oxygen to fuel ratio, sends a voltage back to the computer telling whether it needs more fuel or not. I'm not sure if I can explain this properly, but here goes : If your engine is getting a bigger bang for its buck, your going to reduce throttle. The O2 sensor is going to register more fuel to O2 ratio. therefor its going to send this to the ECU which in turn is going to reduce the fuel its pumping into engine. You would essentially be replacing one fuel for another, and the o2 sensor would be doing its job. Put a circut board in there to "fix the voltage" hell they'd be better off saying "here use this 2 volt power supply and dissconnect your o2 sensor all togethor". 2 volts may not be the ideal voltage but you get the point. This sounds good, but the problem is your vehicle wont run. It'll start, but it'll idle rough, it'll spit it'll sputter and as a result its slowly self destruct itself ( that is if the hydrgen leave anything attached to the frame ).

5. How does hydrogen cool the engine? it explodes...they are confused here. Notrious oxide cools the engine...water injection will cool the charge...hydrogen will blow up in your face.

Hydrogen is a wonderful chemical, the thing stopping mass production of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles is safety concerns. The storage tanks required,etc. Even fuel cells produce "hot" water and electricity as a by product, nothing cold there.

I may be wrong in some of what i've said, but I've seen first hand what carelessly playing around with hydrogen can do and I DONT recomend it. It is very dangerous and you could be seriously injured or killed from it. Something to consider however is look for a propane/methane fuel cell. I don't know who sells/manufactures them, but they would produce the electricity and may help your ideas along.

If you want hydrogen tho..I dont recomend it, but you can build a small gobar gas plant, this will produce methane with a mix of gas's...run it througha scrubber to separate the hydrogen and make it more pure methane content. You can use both to run a fuel cell....be careful though...methane WILL kill. Also its a greenhouse gas and does more harm to the environment than burning it.
A propane fuel cell may be more economical since its widely available.

Just my thaughts tho...I cant stress enough dont screw with hydrogen, it'll kill you...
 
#481 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Todays a good day to argue...lol. I have an ice in the middle of being swapped out thats seriously pissing me off...lol.

Ok, hopefully I can explain my point.

How about today? :) Though there are things in nature that continue to operate for billions of years (essentially forever), that does not make them perpetual. The reason they're not perpetual because they're not over-unity. No energy is expended to keep a planet in orbit around the sun, and hydro-electric plants are solar powered, requiring massive amounts of energy input from the sun to move tons of water from the oceans to the mountaintops.
Well, the suns mass creates gravity which is energy. not electrical, but it is energy. The suns gravitational pull keeps earth in its orbit. Same as the earths gravitational pull holds us down and the moon in orbit. A perfect example is the tides in conjunction to the moons orbit. I dont understand it enough to argue the point, i was quoting a 6th grade text book.

What hydroelectric dams are you refering to? the ones here in canada ( according to the info signs outside them ) "use the extra energy during the off peak hours to pump the water from the lower resevoir to the upper resevoir"

Yes.
Quote:
I think you'll find that the potential power output is much more than the power consumption.
And I calculate you'll find that's not the case.
Quote:
Off hand I believe the potential power is 40 to 50 KW/hr.
That's an astounding amout of power (though I'm confused by the per-hour units). A ducted turbine as you describe will give you about 400 watts at 60 mph, which is far less than the energy expended to maintain that speed.

If your setup could deliver 40 KW as you suggest, then you wouldn't even need a battery. All you would need is a large hill to get you going, and your turbine would generate more than enough electricity to keep you going at 60 mph. :)

Your assertion that a wind turbine can be added without increasing a vehicle's drag is predicated on the notion that you first improve the vehicle's aerodynamics (by ducting the air entering the grill, in your example) before adding the turbine. I submit that you're not comparing apples to apples in this analysis. You're comparing a vehicle with improved aerodynamics (a ducted grill) AND a turbine to a vehicle without improved aerodynamics. To asses the value of the turbine, you need to compare identical vehicles (both with a ducted grill for improved aerodynamics), one with, and one without a turbine. What you'll find is that a well designed ducted turbine will contribute an extra 2.1 amps at 60 mph, but the vehicle will require an extra 3.7 amps to maintain speed (assuming 144 volts) due to turbine drag.

It's logical to think that it is beneficial to add a turbine if the vehicle's aerodynamics can be improved enough to counter the turbine's drag. But the fact is that to any extent you are able to improve a vehicle's aerodynamics, you are far better off leaving it at that and benefiting from improved aerodynamics alone.
Hmm...you've lost me..lol. I used the calculations from otherpower.com. I based the turbine idea on a squirl cage from a furnace blower. I used the size based on what a turbine would be if it were the side of a hood. I did the calculations based on 100 KM/hr. the 40 - 50kw was off the top of my head, i don't know exactly what it came out to, it wasa long time ago that i did the math...lol.
My point that the drag would be no more/no less is the wind is essentially hitting a solid wall in the grill with the ICE and rad sitting there. With them gone and a ducted turbine ( weighing less than the engine/tranny combo ) vented would allow the air to pass through easier essentially reducing the drag. I am curious though, what is the equation you are using to calculate the potential output of a ducted turbine running a perminent magnet altinator?

Originally Posted by Beyonder
Most perpetual motion devices are hoax's, scams,etc.
I think you misspelled the word "All". ;)
No, I have to stick with most here. To say all are scams would mean to closed minded. I will go as far to say that ALL of these devices to date are scams, but I would not say ALL are. I hope as I asume you and most others do to that someone might figure it out. Not holding my breath, but it would make things lot simpler. lol.


You seem to be very educated in electric vehicles, I am still learning. I've tinkered with the various aspects in different applications, but never an electric vehicle. What do you think about my idea of making thermoelectic body panels to help with recharging the battery pack using the heat difference between the engine compartment and the outside temperature of the vehicle as it is accelerating? Body panels would be difficult for a DIYer to make, however I was thinking about the ducting...for arguements sake lets say you ducted the air from the grill out the back of the vehicle ( simular to exhaughst ), running thermoelectic modules down the pipe? To counteract the heat loss leading the the back of the vehicle you could use a coil wrapped around the electric motor running glycol to move the heat overtop of the t-electric modules. This should offer sufficient heating on one side and cooling on the other side to make the module generate electricity. The modules are easy enough to get, the pipes are easy enough to get ( you could use copper or exhaughst pipe for trials ). Although I suggested in a previous post that you may be able to offset the power consumption of the motor lets disregard that and go with the idea of range extension :)

If I'm right you could generate 96 watts per foot ( per pipe ), the average car would be...16 - 18ft long? so 1536 - 1728 watts per pipe ( per hour ). if these were 4 to 6" pipes, you could run 2, potentially generating 3.072 - 3.456 KW/hr If you running 15 Kw/100km then you could extend your range 20KM ( 10km per pipe ). Does this sound right to you? It shouldn't add any drag since its allowing the air to flow free and there are no moving parts. I don't know a lot about these modules other than i run a small panel made from them that generates 50 watts/hr continous from a wood stove ( Runs my computer for a few hours a day...lol ).

I wouldn't want to disappoint you. ;) I hope my arguments are cogent and worthwhile, as you (wisely) requested challenges to be.

And as far as being open-minded goes, I'm always willing to be convinced I'm wrong. :)
I like the way you argue, plz argue some more :)
 
#483 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

One of the most fascinating ideas I've found that has some credibility, is the work being done to reproduce Stanley Meyer's water injection system utilizing the plasma spark. As A member of various other both private and public forums I can tell you that these people are getting close. Here is a link to a very informative video Pay attention and find out about the Meyers Injection system. and a later spin-off The FireStorm plasma sparkplug. Talk about suppression! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9071695126208320206
 
#486 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about combustion engines to comment on the efficacy of injecting hydrogen. I have an opinion on the usefulness of generating HHO on the fly to burn immediately in an ICE which then turns a generator to generate HHO on the fly, but I've already made my opinion known on that front.
Well, the suns mass creates gravity which is energy.
I know that both gravity and magnetism appear to be "energetic" due to their mysterious ability to affect objects at great distances. But in reality, gravity (along with magnetism) isn't energy at all. It is just a force. (Not that that is any small thing, mind you.) But, like any force, gravity can be used to convert energy from one form to another, as it does when (for example) converting potential energy to kinetic energy when coasting down a hill, which can be quite useful at times (like, for instance, when going down a hill). But when all forces balance, there is no energy conversion going on. Though it's a little more complicated, a planet in orbit is in a similar, stable balance of forces that, say, a mug sitting on a desk is in. It requires no energy expenditure (or, more precisely, no energy conversion) to maintain that state since the forces are balanced.
A perfect example is the tides in conjunction to the moons orbit
That is, indeed, a remarkable example! Entire oceans are lifted and dropped again, twice a day! That takes ENORMOUS amounts of energy! That's no stable, steady-state condition. So where does that energy come from if gravity isn't energy?

Actually, what's going on is just energy conversion, facilitated by the force of gravity. The Earth's rotational kinetic energy is converted to rising and falling tides. (Actually, the Moon causes the initial tidal bulge, which would otherwise be steady-state, but the Earth's rotation causes this bulge to move around to make the tides move in and out.) And the rising and falling tides are converted back to kinetic energy as they gravitationally pull on the Moon and speed it up in its orbit. So the Earth is slowing down, making each day slightly longer than the one that preceded it, and the Moon is speeding up, making it creep farther and farther away in its orbit. This is a MASSIVE AMOUNT OF ENERGY TRANSFER from the Earth to the Moon! But gravity, instead of being the source of that energy, merely provides the relentless force that converts that energy and facilitates the transfer. The energy actually comes from (and at the expense of) the kinetic energy of Earth's rotation. Once the Earth slows down enough to match the orbit of the Moon, this energy transfer will stop, steady-state will be achieved, and there will be no more tides moving in and out at the beach. All the rotational kinetic energy available for conversion will be gone, and all the gravity in the universe won't be able to convert any more.
What hydroelectric dams are you refering to? The ones here in canada [...] "use the extra energy during the off peak hours to pump the water from the lower resevoir to the upper resevoir"
They're not hydro-electric dams, actually. Two are privately-owned facilities that do nothing but fill a mountain reservoir at night, and empty it during the day just to sell electricity to a utility company at a higher price during the day than they pay for it at night to run the pump. They do this for a profit, and it consumes more energy than it produces. The utilities don't mind (and even encourage) this, however, because the practice helps them deal with peak loads during the day (load balancing), and alternatives would cost the utilities more than letting these guys run their pumps at night.

The third was a generation plant (not hydro) that built its own reservoir to do this for load balancing purposes. Though I'm not familiar with the hydro dams in Canada, I'd bet even money that they're doing this for load-balancing reasons.
You seem to be very educated in electric vehicles
I'm definitely not. That's why I'm here -- to get an education. But thanks to you and others on this forum, I've begun my education in EVs in earnest. Thanks for helping!
What do you think about my idea of making thermoelectic body panels to help with recharging the battery pack using the heat difference between the engine compartment and the outside temperature of the vehicle as it is accelerating?
I think your idea will work a lot better in Canada than it will in Texas! :)

I have considerable doubt about whether the motor/controller will produce enough heat to make capturing worthwhile, even with drag and extra weight minimized or even eliminated. Electric motors are pretty efficient. Some waste only 5% of supplied energy as heat. Even if you could recapture and convert ALL of that 5%, it would improve your range by only 5.26%. (Yeah, you heard that right. 5.26%. Take THAT all you over-unity deniers! ;)) And you're not going to recapture it all in any case. Also, your watts-per-foot-of-pipe value can't hold true for arbitrary lengths of pipe. At some point, no more heat can be extracted, and adding more pipe will be of no value. I have no idea what that point would be, however.

I will say this: The amount of heat to be captured and converted will be the same whether you capture it at the body panels, or in a tight enclosure just an inch away from the heat source (motor). It's like a side serving of distasteful vegetables. Spreading them out all over the plate to make it look like you've eaten some doesn't really change the actual vegetable mass, and bigger dinner plates are less efficient. (Okay, that analogy didn't go where I wanted it to go, but I think you get the idea. Suffice to say that capturing diffuse heat in a large volume is probably more difficult than capturing the exact same amount of heat concentrated at the source.)

Though I'm doubtful that it would be worthwhile, I do concede that there is heat energy there that can be captured and converted to some amount of electrical energy. To determine whether that amount is useful, I'm afraid you'll just have to experiment to find out for yourself! :) (Just be sure not to overheat the motor if you use an enclosure.)
plz argue some more :)
Well, dang! You're easy to please! :)
 
#487 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

Both Beshires1 and Astronomer had a lot of good points. Great info by the way.

As for the HHO assist, it is merely just enough produced to give a few extra miles and it will not blow up the engine. I could go through a ton of links and post them all here about HHO assist or running a car or generator off pure HHO, which they are doing in Japan.

Here is the link of the HHO assist on a police vehicle, which they are converting all their vehicles in S. Carolina with HHO.
Not the best video quality, but it works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfeBUdARbMU

Japans H20 Car. Think I posted this earlier on a different post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME&feature=related

So it can be done. Stan Meyers version was putting out a large amount of HHO, but he had a way to control how much amps were being used and a relief pressure valve to keep the HHO under control.
 
#489 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

You stand corrected. The O2 sensor maintains the air/fuel mixture by sampling the air inside the exhaust system and comparing it to the outside air, makes adjustments to try to maintain the 13.5 or what ever ratio the computer has been programed to as the ideal air/fuel ratio. Hydrogen even as a booster to gasoline causes a more complete burn of fuel in the combustion chamber.(less emissions) the computer sees this clean burn as a lean condition and adjusts the mixture (adding more fuel) until it receives the signal that the fuel mixture is now within its ideal range.[again Programmed] When you first crank the engine the system operates in what is known as open loop mode where the computer does not make any changes to the air fuel mixture. after the sensors warm up the computer starts receiving its signal from the O2 sensor and commences its continual up and down mixture adjustments.(trying to maintain the mixture within this base line). This being said no matter how much fuel the engine is given run wide open or at idle the computer will still receive the signals from the O2 and makes its adjustments. Also auto manufactures design the systems to run rich in the ideal preset area.Thats why tampering or removing a O2 sensor is a no-no.
There are devices that will trick the computer into thinking its within its designed perimeters. You have to make the computer think a Rich condition exists so it cuts back on the fuel to correct. These are Known as "EFFIE" devices and can most of the time improve your mileage without a hydrogen booster. But without the hydrogen running to lean of a mixture can cause damage to the engine.
Are you sure? I dont have my automotive engineering books here, they're at my other place about 300 km from here so i cant quote them :( but, i still think I'm right. If not about the hydrogen making the o2 sensor read false about being able to trick the o2 sensor into operating properly. My reason is here for example, I'm at an altitude of 1900 Metres, my other place sits around 3000metres or something like that. The o2 sensor gives 2 different readings alltogethor due to the altitude. I've seen this myself with a multimeter. If you trick the o2 sensor into a constant voltage its not going to fluctuate with the air density, burn ratio or anything. So although you may be able to trick it and if you were to drive in the exact same conditions at the exact same altitude then yes I agreee it would work...but going from one place to another I seriously have my doubts. I'm unsure if I'm explaining my point point good enough, but thats from personal experience...not to mention vehicles with 2 o2 sensors? hmm...

They're not hydro-electric dams, actually. Two are privately-owned facilities that do nothing but fill a mountain reservoir at night, and empty it during the day just to sell electricity to a utility company at a higher price during the day than they pay for it at night to run the pump. They do this for a profit, and it consumes more energy than it produces. The utilities don't mind (and even encourage) this, however, because the practice helps them deal with peak loads during the day (load balancing), and alternatives would cost the utilities more than letting these guys run their pumps at night.

The third was a generation plant (not hydro) that built its own reservoir to do this for load balancing purposes. Though I'm not familiar with the hydro dams in Canada, I'd bet even money that they're doing this for load-balancing reasons.
hmm, interesting. Tho the sign at the info booth (at the dam I visited ) claims they do this for profit. Perhaps it has something to do with the wholesale price of power? we don't pay a fluctuating rate here we pay a steady rate so perhaps thats why? i really have no idea now...lol.

I think your idea will work a lot better in Canada than it will in Texas! :)
Why? In a home the thermoelectic generators operate on the difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures. In texas your indoor temperature of your house is still different than outside? With a vehicle this would be greater. I have no idea on how to figure out windchill effect, but I'm pretty sure the temperature difference between the inside of a vehicle ( in the cab or engine compartment ) would be great enough to generate something usefull.
These modules are very cheap to buy...I seen some 180 watt modules on ebay last week for 9.99 USD. generating capacity should be around 18 watts, not a lot I know, however if your consuming 15 Kw/hr driving 100km/hr ( 70 mph i believe it is ) thats...0.0012% extension in range per module. so a 0.12km increase in range per module? for 10.00. I dont have a way of testing this idea, perhaps someone on here who has some extra thermoelectric modules laying around will make a panel and test this, I'd be really interested to see what the results are. 1 may not be enough, but consider the difference of solar panels...theyre what 1.00 a watt on the low side...these are 0.55 per watt and they could run 24 hrs/day ( presuming you could drive 24 hours a day non stop )...might be worth while for a bus type conversion.

Even if you could recapture and convert ALL of that 5%, it would improve your range by only 5.26%. (Yeah, you heard that right. 5.26%. Take THAT all you over-unity deniers! ;))
5% of 15KW is still 750 watts. thats an extra 3 miles ( at 250 watt/mile ). 3 miles is a big deal with the limited range of an electric vehicle. an extra battery ( 1200 watt reserve ) gives you only 4 - 5 miles extra.

A better use than extending the range of the vehicle with that potential 750 watts would be to use it to charge the 12 volt aux battery fro runnign lights, radio,etc. This would be a safety benefit as well; e.g. your headlights would not run out of power as long as you were driving.


Now you've got me thinking though, there is another thread on here, I don't know where tho :( but they talk about water cooling the motor...this is where i came up with the idea of using the coolant to heat pipes creating a temperature difference.

To determine whether that amount is useful, I'm afraid you'll just have to experiment to find out for yourself! :) (Just be sure not to overheat the motor if you use an enclosure.)
I wish i had a motor to play with already..lol. I'm planning on building one...still waiting for more info on beshires website lol:D

Both Beshires1 and Astronomer had a lot of good points. Great info by the way.

As for the HHO assist, it is merely just enough produced to give a few extra miles and it will not blow up the engine. I could go through a ton of links and post them all here about HHO assist or running a car or generator off pure HHO, which they are doing in Japan.

Here is the link of the HHO assist on a police vehicle, which they are converting all their vehicles in S. Carolina with HHO.
Not the best video quality, but it works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfeBUdARbMU

Japans H20 Car. Think I posted this earlier on a different post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfM...eature=related

So it can be done. Stan Meyers version was putting out a large amount of HHO, but he had a way to control how much amps were being used and a relief pressure valve to keep the HHO under control.
hmm...well from my personal experience HHO is not something to experiment with. Not without all the proper safety equipment and ambulance and a fire truck standing by. just my opinion tho...

Giving this some thaught, your getting a few mpg extra right? So in all fairness...your gallon is 4L right? 4.5L to a gallon here...so lets go with 4L, at 3 mpg extra thats .75 miles per L. Your generator is going to consume 414 watts ( 30 amps X 13.8 Volts ). 1/2 Lb gas per HP required, 414 watts is 0.55 HP. 1 Gallon of gas is 6 LBS, thus 1/2 LB of fuel is 0.33 L of fuel. In an average car...lets take a dodge neon for example, they are approximatly 5.7L per 100KM on the highway. This is approximatly..49MPG? the increase of 1/3 of a litre makes it goto 6L per 100 km; 46 MPG so add your 3MPG and your back to 49 MPG....so, IF the system posted previously were able to build sufficient pressure to do anything, what are you gaining? IF i am correct here, all your doing is adding cost to the operations of your vehicle. The 1/3L of fuel extra you need to burn. like I said, IF I am correct.

However I am curious and you've obviously taken the time to research these things so please post the links you have. I am open minded enough to read them :) and am happy to be proven wrong...
 
#490 ·
Re: Unlimited Mileage Electric Vehicles (Part 2)

So it can be done. Stan Meyers version was putting out a large amount of HHO, but he had a way to control how much amps were being used and a relief pressure valve to keep the HHO under control.
I have been following alternative fueled vehicles for sometime, when I was 17 I did an experiment with a small truck and hydrogen ( in a tank ) that we had made through electrolosys....I seen the truck explode and jump nearly what looked like 15 or 20 off the ground ( mind you i was busy running away ), so I do apoligize if I come accross like an ass when it comes to the dangers of hydrogen. My mistake back then was no regulator.


Now onto a more positive note here, I was in walmart today...I was looking at deep cycle / starter batteries. Energizers to be exact...I've run these before and know from first hand experience that they last in high usage a lot longer than regular automotive batteries. Now, these batteries are 800 AMP storage, with a 180 minute reserve time. I used to run 1 of these batteries for 3 days with a consumption of 6 KW over 3 days. The total capacity of these batteries at 12 volts is 9.6 KW so I can assume these are around 60% efficient? I never ran the battery completely dead. Would I be correct in assuming that these batteries are rated for 3.2KW per hour output? with 60% efficiency 1.92KW/hr? And in the useage of an electric vehicle based on a 144 Volt system this would be a 23KW system...and given a 15KW per hour usage at 100km/hr I could logically expect 153 KM range using these batteries? ( Remember these are a deep cycle/starting hybrid battery...basically a battery capable of the high output current required to start with the ability of deep discharge from the deep cycle...just for anyone whos never heard of them...lol ).


A thaught letank, why dont you look into building your own single cylinder steam engine? An idea would be a hybrid type setup, a single cylinder steam engine with a thermoelectric generator around the steam cyl...perhaps that would extend the range for you? you could use propane,methane,etc or even hydrogen...
 
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