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1930 Model A Roadster build

351K views 736 replies 56 participants last post by  sdev 
#1 · (Edited)
Greetings to all:

I dont want this thread to be boring, so I will only outline the basic steps when they happen. If you want to know more about something, please ask and I will fill it in more.

CHASSIS: Pretty much your basic production 1930 Ford Model A frame that has been heavily modded. It originally was built with an ICE V-6, but plans change and I went EV.

Ford 8.8 posi rearend, stock front axle and corvair van steering box.

I chose to go with an AC50, Curtis 650 controller, Oval track direct drive powerglide, 3.55 gears (subject to change...LOL).

Motor and controller came from East Bay EV Conversion (Cruisin)
Adapter and hub came from Canadian Electric Vehicles (Randy)
The 600 amp battery disconnect came from NewAge Marine
The 400 amp fuse came from Boatersworld.com
The Powerglide was out of Craigslist. from a local IMCA racer that went to a BREN transmission, (it had 4 seasons on it).
Most ALL small things come from Speedway Motors.

All these guys are fantastic to deal with. They actually have things in stock, they are friendly, knowledgeable and ship quickly. (Dont ask about the ones that "Drop ship", have things "custom built", or even echo the order to a fabber in China.) I realize things are tough, but these guys go the extra mile to assure their customers get what they pay for in a reasonable time frame.

The car:




The contactor and controller are visible.


The cutouts are for 4-6volt batteries per side, plus a 12 volter for my accessories. (I'm not ready to commit to Lithiums yet. Their grossly over redundant monitoring systems, their fragility, their stupidly expensive cost and the chance of getting screwed by flaky venders puts me off for the next 5 years or so.)

1 year later edit: OK, I give up. I did use lithium cells after all. It was expensive. But it made my car light and nimble to drive. If you elect to not use a simple cell minder, you will spend more time checking and watching cell voltage than you would with the lead/acid batteries. You ALWAYS need to watch for out-of-balance cells and over/under charging.

More to come...
 
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#503 ·
It was a higher cell when I received them. It would still be high after charging.....

I am cycling them and voltage checking at full and after a decent day of driving before charging, again after...a few cycles, to establish in my mind it needs brought into the pack average.

If at some time I feel it is a "short" cell, I will replace it.

BTW: It is highest when just off the charger AND after setting 24 hrs.

It is a higher cell at half charge too.

Miz
 
#504 ·
Interesting. The big question is what is the resting voltage of that cell relative to the others when the pack is fully discharged. If its higher, then presumably its somewhere around average capacity and the charge level is out of alignment with the others. If its voltage is lower than the others, then its the lowest capacity cell...
 
#505 ·
What you are doing is sort of top balancing that cell, with no idea of it's actual capacity. It really would be worth either top or bottom balancing the pack and then doing a controlled charge or discharge while monitoring to find actual capacities of your cells. That way you'll know which cells have the least capacity and decide how to handle it. My feeling is if your cells are close enough in capacity that you can bottom balance them but still have them reasonably close at the end of charge that's probably best, but if they aren't close enough to do that then top balancing is probably better, as long as you stay far away from deeply discharging your smallest cell.
 
#506 · (Edited)
My pack strategy is exactly that. I have over sized the pack for my average daily driving and plan to not deeply discharge them. As well as only charge to 3.35 (resting) or there abouts. So, top balancing should work in this instance. Yes, I'm leaving some on the table, but the Elcon people didnt want to go higher because I was not using a BMS.

I just today bought a DC clamp so I can measure my charge current accurately.
The pack only has the original/as delivered charge-then topped off-then driven 15 miles in local testing and once more charged to the Elcon shut off.

Yes, it seems to be just an out of adjustment cell (so far). I have as yet to do a full daily cycle to tell if it is damaged. In which case I will replace it.

The worst cell is still 137AH according to the CALB paperwork.


I go to the DMV tomorrow to begin the titling/licensing dance. It is 14.5 miles each way. It should be a good trial run.

Miz
 
#507 · (Edited)
WOO-HOO!

Finally, I'm legal now. (Well about as legal as I ever get).
Titled and plated....

The trip was 38 miles in total.

Pack voltage was full charged and sat over night at 127.2 volts.

When I arrived back home, It was 121.7 Volts.

The motor was 56 Deg.C. (133 F)
The controller was 45 Deg. C.(113 F)
The ambient is 35 Deg. C (95 F.)

I could hold 45 MPH at 120 Amps

The People in the DMV were in rare form today. The inspector didnt even get within 10 feet of the car, and the title clerk went to bat for me with her boss and got the bonded title changed to a regular one. I was looking for Rod Serling to step in at some point...

The suspension is so stiff, I chipped a tooth I think, driving over the train tracks, the seats were so hot that I got a heat rash and I got a tire way out of balance. I enjoyed every second.

Miz
 
#511 ·
Sweet!

Pack voltage was full charged and sat over night at 127.2 volts.
BTW, looking over my numbers on a TS 100Ah cell I'd say that you are leaving about 30% of your capacity unused by only charging to 3.35vpc, especially going by that resting voltage of about 3.347vpc. You just don't want to assume that you have 130Ah of capacity to use since 80% of it is more than you have in your pack with that charge voltage.
 
#514 ·
To get what I wanted them to do with my Zivan chargers was to have them programmed for 19 cells and then I put 20 cells in my rig. That gave me 3.465vpc with a mA range ending current. Do you know what the ending current is on your charger?

I haven't poked around inside an Elcon but there is a voltage calibration pot in the Zivan chargers which I use to tweak the ending voltage. Maybe there is something similar in the Elcon or maybe they programmed other profiles you could switch to. As I understand it, the Elcon can have 10 different charging profiles programmed in. The manual should say how to switch it.
 
#515 · (Edited)
An Elcon has only one true algorithm. The ten steps are for cell count. I am on step 8-for 38 cells, at the 501V charge curve.

OK, hand written notes on charger tag:
120V-18A, KW2.5, Alg501v, cells38, V4 133V, Ah 520, 13 6.5A

Hand written set up chart:
SETTING--cells----V4-3.5
______________________
1 - 31 - 108.5
2 - 32 - 112.0
3 - 33 - 115.5
4 - 34 - 119.0
5 - 35 - 122.5
6 - 36 - 126.0
7 - 37 - 129.5
8 - 38 - 133.0
9 - 39 - 136.5
10 - 40 - 140.0

Those are changes by holding the button and turning on the unit, counting the blinks and release on desired one. Reboot and count to make sure, charge.

Present-step 8, 38 cells:
133.0/38= 3.50/ cell average (If in balance)

Step 9 on 38 cells looks like this:
136.5 pack volts / 38= 3.592 / cell average

Step10, 38 cells:
140.0/38= 3.684/ cell average.

Then after 24 hrs, they DO settle lower some.

Pack history so far: half charged on delivery as expected. Then charged. Checked. Drove 12 local miles over several days checking things. Checked again. Then a complete charge cycle. Sat for a week {checked) and drove 38 miles to DMV and back. Cell check needed now before I perform a full charge as I have a chart going.

So far I am happy with mileage and car performance, except the soft initial take-off. That has to be in the controller.

HPEV gave me the two things to check for my twitchy wheel at rest problem.
It was spot on. TYVM HPEV

Above 127 volts/pack, I have to double cycle the key to get a safe precharge and clear the error alert on the Spyglass. So, I am looking for a 147 wat, 5 Amp resistor as a suggested try. I have to shut off the main pack disconnedt when parking to stop a pack drain, or install a delay relay as suggested by Ivansgarage.

Anyone have a suggestion where to get an insurance policy? I have been turned down by two insurers so far (Farmers & J.C.Taylor). My car scares them.......

The DMV on the other hand was really good to me. They waved the $50 Inspection fee, Dropped the bonding requirement and Didnt make me wait back in line twice to install the V.I.N. tag.... The nice clerk lady walked out into the parking lot and installed it herself, just to see the car.

Miz
 
#517 ·
An Elcon has only one true algorithm. The ten steps are for cell count.
Looks like I used the term algorithm the way most people use the word font rather than type face.:eek:

OK, hand written notes on charger tag:
120V-18A, KW2.5, Alg501v, cells38, V4 133V, Ah 520, 13 6.5A
I wonder if that last value, 6.5A, represents the cutoff or ending current. For a 130Ah pack that would be 0.05C which would be correct for the charge procedure for ending at 3.6vpc. Both my Zivan NG1 and NG3 terminate somewhere in the 100mA range and it pulses that on and off during the old lead acid equalize phase. It appears that the Zivan chargers only have a lead acid type of algorithm where it is terminated after a certain amount of time the pack is at or above a particular voltage where as the Elcon is capable of terminating after reaching a particular voltage and current has dropped to a particular point. This difference is, if ending current is really 6.5A, why I get a full charge to 3.465vpc and you aren't.

You might consider trying step 9 and watch the pack charge. I don't remember if you have an Ah counter installed or not but it would be worth recording how many more Ah the pack will take on the next step up. That might not do well for the voltage limit of your controller, however.

It may be that you would actually get more range with a 36 cell pack that charges to a resting voltage of just under 3.4V.

Anyone have a suggestion where to get an insurance policy? I have been turned down by two insurers so far (Farmers & J.C.Taylor). My car scares them.......
You can tell Farmers that since they insure my Gizmo they surely can insure your rig. I only have a liability policy, however. It seems like there was a thread either here on DIY or the EVDL about getting insurance on EVs. Might be worth a look.
 
#516 ·
I had a thought about the precharge, maybe turn on your headlights, and any other loads you have, before turning on the key. Might drop the voltage a little bit, maybe enough.

I guess your charging is set to stop at 3.5V per cell at 6.5 amps? That would be basically a full charge for CALB cells. You could switch to setting 7 to consistently undercharge the pack at almost 3.41V per cell if the range is enough for you, that's about what I use most of the time.
 
#518 ·
I guess your charging is set to stop at 3.5V per cell at 6.5 amps? That would be basically a full charge for CALB cells. You could switch to setting 7 to consistently undercharge the pack at almost 3.41V per cell if the range is enough for you, that's about what I use most of the time.
Wasn't that 3.6V at 0.05C? If his cells are resting at 3.347V after a "full" charge and a rest then they aren't getting fully charged.
 
#526 ·
No work on the car today. It's a family thing...

But, I have some interesting facts after putting about 50 miles on the car:

Trans pump, I ran my charge pump hose to the pressure test port on the front/right servo cover. MISTAKE: That only provides pressure to the forward gears. Reverse slams into gear when the motor starts turning. The reverse section is not being pressurized from there.

SO, I need to change it to the rear test port, and try it there. I am looking for the MAIN pressure gallery. (the best spot is to drill a hole in the front pump output manifold area. That requires pump removal.)


Trans cooling, With 105-110F average ambient temps, My trans is seeing 140-150 Deg. F. with water cooling. I have now unplugged the coolant pump and will report on the temps after a drive.


Motor cooling. I have been seeing 55c-58C with my tube style water cooling. I have unplugged that coolant pump also.

Controller cooling: My "bathtub" style chill-plate made by Ivansgarage is keeping the controller in the 45C-48C range, in varying driving situations. (all above 105 F.)

Due to the effective heat exchanging capacity of my 1932 Ford style aluminum radiator, I have unplugged the big 14" Spal cooling fan. (It only ran at a stop when My foot was on the brake.)

I am trying to determine an adequate "summer" set up, while conserving current in the AUX. system. A winter set up should be quite easy.

NOTE: I need to widen my regen dead band some. I am seeing -4 amps without the lever being actuated, but the pot is at minimum setting.

Miz
 
#529 ·
Like Ivan said, Yes, all systems share the radiator, it gets warm to the touch, but not what I call hot.

I am an Arizona Native and life long mechanic. It is safe to say that I am experienced in cooling systems. When I worked for the Bondurant Racing School, we could boil a car in three laps. Ford Engineering would stop by once in a while with special cars to test. Heat test. We could boil the ones that just made it through Death Valley. Our school cars survived by having 28# cooling systems, regular belt driven clutch fans (not solely electric) and they required 265 Deg. F. to boil.

The top of my controller at the base, gets hot, but I can still hold my hand on it. The motor gets to where you can hold it for 10 seconds or so, but must let it go. Not real hot either in it's operating range.

All I need is insurance and I can begin driving. I will carry my infrared gun to take temp. samples.

Miz
 
#530 ·
As if it didn't already look funny enough magically driving down the street with the engine bay appearing empty. Now you can be leaning over the firewall taking temp gun readings going down the road! Definitely want to get insurance before attracting that much attention!
 
#534 ·
I am on my fourth insurer. Everything goes well until they see pictures....

I really think it is that they dont understand what they are looking at. They just opt out as not to seem clueless of electric cars.

My applications are getting more "refined". In this case "full disclosure" is not indicated or desired by both sides.

I need to calibrate the speedo this weekend. Then further information has a meaning.

And I thought the titling process was going to be the real challenge....

Miz
 
#536 ·
UPDATE:

I have been sitting here doing nothing while I searched for insurance.

The penalty for building a unique car is to be placed in the "odd" catagory by the underwriters. Everything goes fine until they get the 4 required pictures....OK...OK....OK...Whatthehellisthat!.....

When they see the engine bay, they really freak. If they do not understand it, they are not insuring it. "We can not cover your car at this time".

So, I got more creative with each policy form I filled out. Not lying, just brief and as few words as it required. That and some carefully taken pictures. Take a ton of pictures, adjust the angle as to minimise the odd aspects. Select 4 from the collection that fill their needs without standing out.

So, I noticed the latest company has charged my credit card last wednesday.

The policy should be in the mail. (or so I hope)

Things that help:
Garaged 7/24.
Active alarm system in garage.
Driven less than 6,000 miles/Yr.
Proof of main transport vehicle/copy of title/copy of policy.
Show a main vehicle/title/policy for every licensed driver in the house.
On board Halon/fire system.

I got my J1772 plug installed on-board. Installed the "spoofer" board.
I made a charging cable for leaving at home. It has a power box and a contactor.

I have everything installed except for not connecting the signal line to the power box. I have a toggle switch to activate ths contactor.

I also need to calibrate my ZEVA device as well as my speedometer.

OK, The last time I charged my pack, they were sitting at 3.125 volts/cell. The ELCON started out charging at 127.5 volts and 12.7 amps.
At the green light, it measured 127.6 volts and 1.36 Amps.

Miz
 
#537 ·
Miz did you ever do the comparison testing to find out whether or not your water cooling setup on the motor is helping? I am toying with the idea of using a small, sealed, PM, motor to make my bike project move until I get a Mars for it and was thinking about trying this idea. I have the radiator and water pump for the bike so making the cooler would be just the cost of the copper tubing, and fittings.
 
#541 ·
Finally got my policy binder. I'll be driving to work in the morning for the first time...

BTW: When I just charged my pack, it was at 127.2Volts. It started out at 13Amps. It ended 4 hours later at 131.6 volts and 2.3 amps. There was some left in the curve, but I need to check the individual cells again before I let it do that.

Yes I do have a high cell at 3.94 volts. I need to watch it tomorrow after 40 miles or so to see if it is lower or still higher than the average cell. I do hope it is kinda high, then it only needs brought down to the cell average. If kinda low, that means it is a low capacity cell...and more problems for me. (to get exchanged)

Miz
 
#542 ·
Finally got my policy binder. I'll be driving to work in the morning for the first time...
SWEET!:)

Yes I do have a high cell at 3.94 volts. I need to watch it tomorrow after 40 miles or so to see if it is lower or still higher than the average cell. I do hope it is kinda high, then it only needs brought down to the cell average. If kinda low, that means it is a low capacity cell...and more problems for me. (to get exchanged)
Remember that with the cells in the middle of the SOC curve that the voltages will be very close. You will want to discharge the pack most of the way to get down into the 90%DOD range to see the difference very well. Also, you could put a load on the pack and measure the voltages to see what they are like. I built a board with several ceramic base light bulb sockets wired in parallel. I just install several high wattage bulbs for my load.
 
#543 ·
Yahoo!!!

A really nice day. I left the house for work at 4:25 AM. No traffic to speak of. The terrain is flat, 18 miles and 5-6 stop lights total. The car is really nimble and responsive. A real pleasure to drive. I used the lights going in. With the small Headway cells and the two 4,000MFD caps, the DC/DC worked well. The headlights were nice and bright with no flickering.

It was a LONG day , but was finally over. Traffic was heavy, but I seemed to be in a bubble without traffic....Go figure.

I did an experiment with the motor cooling set up. I started a thread in the tech section "Water cooling", I feel that topic needs it's own thread. It explains how little my tubing actually helped.

Just as I got home, My low gear started to slip on acceleration...SO, I will be taking it out Sunday for a rebuild. If Woodie does not mind, I will put pics and stuff in his thread about Powerglide secrets.

I am VERY pleased with the car. It is worlds easier to drive than my previous cars.

Miz
 
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