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Default Hydrogen

Hydrogen is the darling of the media, car manufacturers and oil companies alike. The general public seems fairly convinced that hydrogen vehicles are going to be the way of the future and a simple replacement for oil. Just about every car manufacturer has done at least a fuel cell concept, if not a ‘production ready model’ or even consumer testing. Hydrogen can be filled up in more or less the same way as conventional cars meaning that consumers can continue in their established transport patterns. It can be produced from a variety of different sources including electricity and has the potential to be created with zero emissions. Best of all the only thing to come out of the tailpipe of a fuel cell vehicle is water vapour.But is hydrogen really the miracle cure for oil dependence and transport environmental damage that everyone thinks it is?

As a preface, the first thing that needs to be noted in answering that question is that hydrogen, unlike petroleum or natural gas, is not actually a fuel source, it is just an energy carrier. We can’t mine, harvest or extract hydrogen from the earth; we have to make it ourselves. That means we need to put energy in to make hydrogen so we can get it back out again in our cars. The problem with that is that it isn’t a very efficient or necessarily green process and that’s not the only obstacle, Popular Mechanics lists 4 major hurdles for hydrogen to become the fuel that powers our transport needs:

Production

At present the vast majority of hydrogen production uses heat and pressure to extract hydrogen from natural gas. The process uses fossil fuels, energy for the heat and pressure and releases CO2. So the hydrogen produced can hardly be called green. The cheapest alternative method to produce the 150 million tons of hydrogen required to replace current passenger cars is coal gasification. Costing around US$500 billion, the process would produce 600 million tons of CO2. The cheapest CO2 free way of doing it would be nuclear at $840 billion and requiring 2000 next generation reactors compared to the 103 existing nuclear power stations in the US. If you covered an area greater than California in wind generators you could match current fuel prices after the 3 trillion dollar setup cost. Pretty much any replacement for oil is going to take similar scale investment (for example Battery Electric Vehicles would require about 50% of these estimates) but you get an idea of the scope of the change that needs to happen for us to replace our current transport situation.

Storage

I’m going to try and keep the next two short but you can read more about them here. Hydrogen is light, giving it quite a good energy to weight ratio of 3 times that of natural gas. The problem is that it is also not very dense, even if cooled to the point where it turns into a liquid you would still require three times as much space as an equivalent gas (petrol) tank. If compressed to 10,000 psi, 250 times more pressure than your average tires, you would need 4-5 times the amount of space for a tank for the same range as an equivalent petrol car. There are also certain materials which can absorb and release hydrogen but they are heavy and expensive.

Distribution

Trucking it will take 11% of the energy in each load just for the truck. Pipelines cost about a $1 000 000 per mile. Small scale on site production via electrolysis or natural gas is less efficient than large scale but could potentially be the best of the not very good options. Or in the distant future in car production may be possible though it would be using up our aluminium reserves.

Use

You can use hydrogen in an internal combustion engine and get about a 25% better fuel economy than traditional ICE’s. Considering ICE cars are only 20-25% efficient anyway we’re not getting much bang for our buck. Fuel Cells can bump this to 45% total efficiency with light duty but this drops to 36% under high loads. Not to mention that Fuel Cells are so expensive that Ballard, a leading fuel cell researcher for the past 25 years worth 600 million has abandoned its fuel cell program as prohibitively expensive. The Wall Street Journal even quoted Toyota and GM big-shots implying that Fuel Cells were too expensive for any near term production, though the manufacturers have played down those comments. But even with the efficiency of Fuel Cells the total well to wheel efficiency of hydrogen cars ends up at around 17-22%. When compared to electric vehicles, hybrids or even efficient petrol or diesel cars this is not very smart use of energy, especially considering the scale of implementing such a system, discussed above.

Perhaps the biggest thing we can use to evaluate the effectiveness of fuel is its well to wheel efficiency, if not its availability or cost viability. Hydrogen vehicles are not the best option on any of these counts. Their efficiency fails to compete with the other options. When they would be widely available is anyone’s guess; GM says a decade , The EU suggests 2030, but some have guessed up to 100 years, not to mention the chicken and the egg car and distribution problem. And as we saw in the last paragraph hydrogen cars are prohibitively expensive with Fuel Cells and not very efficient as an ICE. I fail to see where all the enthusiasm stems from for hydrogen cars, people just don’t seem to be aware of the numbers. When you look at the facts, H2 cars are too wasteful, too expensive and too far away.


Contributors: mattW
Created by mattW, 03-18-2008 at 05:04 AM
Last edited by mattW, 03-18-2008 at 05:05 AM
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  #2  
Old 04-01-2008, 11:42 AM
krislikesmath krislikesmath is offline
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Default Re: Hydrogen

Should it be noted that water vapor is an even worse at trapping heat than CO2? I've read that CO2 is only the catalyst for global warming and that water vapor is the true cause of severe warming
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Old 04-03-2008, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Hydrogen

If you have some research or a trust able link to back it up then sure whack it in. I don't think there would be a noticable increase in water vapour levels worldwide due to h2 cars since it would probably condense back onto the road/trees etc near the car rather than going into the atmosphere but that's just a guess. The wiki is open for all members to edit so go for it.
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Old 02-27-2010, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: Hydrogen

i just got an email from ballard responding to a question about Fuel Cells and was informed that they were in the middle of a contract with GM and that under that contract they could not sell their hyrdogen Fuel Cells to anyone other than GM. I got that e-mail today.
now i wish i had saved it.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: Hydrogen

did anyone see the PBS NOVA show on hydrogen ?
its an old show but it explains why hydrogen is a silly idea .
at pressure it crystallizes metals , leading too catastrophic fuel tank leaks , they get like glass , if the hydrogen is stored in a hydrate <spelling? its better . why not LNG >? and a http://www.vengeancepower.com/specs.aspx

down sized a bit to just 200 ft lbs max
running a 220 ++volt alternator and use the batteries for acceleration and hill climbing. short runs of 60 miles could easly be all electric the moter for long runs and heating in the frozen north east.
I like LNG as it floats up! no surprise puddles of gas if their were a leak and a cigarette smoker. a bit higher energy density than propane too along with its interstate controled price is less volitale that propaine. and I dont know how they would road tax it eather!

Last edited by bad math; 04-12-2011 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: Hydrogen

The main reason they want to sell you hydrogen that nobody will tell you is that they can keep the status quo. You still buy a very expensive car with lots of parts and you still have to go to a gas station to fill up. Not to mention the fact that hydrogen is produced with fossil fuels currently. The price for hydrogen will be just like e-85. It will mirror the cost of gasoline at the pumps.

With electric cars, I can throw solar panels or a wind turbine on my roof and make my own fuel.
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: Hydrogen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lattimer View Post
The main reason they want to sell you hydrogen that nobody will tell you is that they can keep the status quo.
Also; fuel powered cars cost a small fortune in maintenance. Oil, filters, belts, spark plugs etc etc etc has to be replaced regularly and the construction is so complex with lots of moving parts that there will have to be several repairs of the car during it's life span.

An electric car doesn't need much maintenance nor repairs since the construction lack most moving parts a fossil fuel car has. Sure, you have to maintain the brakes and the vipers will have to be replaced every now and then, but apart from a few things like that? The motor can easily outlast the rest of the car and Lithium, NiMH or other good batteri chemistry has enough cycles to last a decade or two.

A lot of todays profit is made up of the post market, ie spare parts and car shops. With electric cars that market would more or less dry up. I think that's a very big reason to why we've seen cars like the Prius etc but why for example the RAV4-EV was cancelled. The RAV4-EV was too good, too maintenance free, too durable.

We can't have that, can we?
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I like the Soliton's hi-tech build and ability to deliver whopping doses of current until someone screams "Uncle!"
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Old 04-22-2011, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: Hydrogen

No you can't. if you can only get 40 or 50 miles out of a car and you have to plug into an electric plug for 8-12 hours to get a full charge it is for sure you solar panel or turbine will not do the trick.

Yes i like the idea of electric cars, solar panels and turbines, but current technology will not let you do what you want to do. you will still have to plug in at home, still connect to the grid, still have to use the old coal buring or nuke or gas plants to get your grid charged so you can charge your car.

one way or another you are going to end up using oil and coal. how do you think they get to copper for your motor? and the tires? or forming the metal parts for you car. Can't use plastic, it uses oil too. have roads? need oil to make them. and then unless you do it all in your back yard with 17th century hand tools, you are going to have parts transported from all over the world to get that electric car built.

i understand the best batteries come from china, because they are not allowed to be made here - too dirty a process.

you can't get away from it, you need oil, coal, and transport.

Quote:
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With electric cars, I can throw solar panels or a wind turbine on my roof and make my own fuel.
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Hydrogen

Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant the roof of my house. What I meant to say is that with solar or wind I can make my own fuel for my car at home. That is the only fuel that is practical to do that with.
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Hydrogen

I have been running a Hydrogen hybrid for over 3 years now in my 1992 Mitsubishi Lancer (carby model). I have done many tests of economy with and without it running and I have gone from around 8-9l/100Km without to 6.5-7.5l/100Km with it running. As well as an increase of up to 100Km range per tank, the car is much more smooth and powerful on hills.
The system I use consumes about 250ml water every 1000Km and cost me about A$50.00 to make and install.
You still use petrol /gasolene as the main fuel, but the HHO gas helps the combustion process and gives less pollution due to more complete burning.
There are plans on the net for similar systems, just google HHO.
Doug.
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