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  #31  
Old 05-20-2008, 08:16 AM
weelliott weelliott is offline
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Default Re: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that...

Another way to think about it is that gravity is very much like magnetism. Magnets, and ferrous metals are drawn to a magnet just like everything is drawn to the earth. It is a force. You can't magically use gravity to get energy. You might argue that an object that is about to be dropped or descend in some manner has potential energy, but once it falls and stops, it is done. Gravity can't do anything more for you. Eventually you hit bottom. Then you have to put energy into the system to raise that object back up. Magnets are the same.

Granted you can turn magnets on and off, but that is just like turning gravity on and off. It doesn't gain you anything though.
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  #32  
Old 05-20-2008, 02:10 PM
momono momono is offline
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Default Re: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that...

Well, yeah pretty much. You talk about getting power from 'free' natural sources like wind and water, well gravity and magnetism are also forces of nature. In your analogy though, that magnet would be 'falling' for a century or two before it ever got close to hitting the ground. That's not a bad idea either - though we might not have the technology yet - a generator that makes money off the constant pull of gravity? It just seems impossible now, but technology is moving exponentially to the point where we don't know what the next year will bring let alone the next decade. We just have to be clever, and learn to not look at these 'law-binding' forces as working against us.
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  #33  
Old 05-20-2008, 07:33 PM
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Default Re: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that...

Wind and Water have kinetic energy based on their mass and velocity. Magnetic and gravitational forces don't have any energy. Energy is what you need to power something down the road, you can use magnets to convert electrical energy into kinetic energy or use gravity to convert potential energy into kinetic energy (i.e. billy cart/soap box racer), you can even push the car yourself and convert the chemical energy in your food into kinetic energy but you don't get any energy from forces, you just convert it from one form to another.
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  #34  
Old 05-21-2008, 07:14 AM
weelliott weelliott is offline
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Default Re: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that...

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Originally Posted by momono View Post
In your analogy though, that magnet would be 'falling' for a century or two before it ever got close to hitting the ground.
You have missed the analogy. In the analogy the magnetic force is analogous to the force of gravity. The point that the magnet stops creating movement(when the magnet has gotten as close as it is going to to the thing it is attracted to.) is analogous to when gravity stops creating movement because the object has had another force stop it. That force could be an updraft of air, it could be provided by a person's hand pressing up on it. It could be that the object has hit the ground.

You try to equate the time that the object is falling to the useful lifespan of a magnet.(100-200 years) That lifespan would have to be analogous to the useful lifespan of gravity, which is forever. The thing analogous to how long the bject is falling is how long it takes the magnetic object to either reach the magnet, or run into something between it and the magnet.

The rate that technology is progressing is noteable, but it will always work within the bounds of physics. There are certain truths to physics that can't be cheated.

Last edited by weelliott; 05-21-2008 at 07:18 AM. Reason: typo made message hard to follow
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  #35  
Old 05-21-2008, 01:56 PM
momono momono is offline
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Default Re: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that...

Once one side of the magnet reaches the attractive force of the coil, the other side will be repelled along while the attractive force is encouraged along by the next coil. Currently motors and generators are based on switching of current from brushes or alternating magnets, but remember that in my design the motion is created from a rotating magnetic field set up in the generation coils. You have to kind of rethink how electric motors work in general to grasp this.. I'm not trying to cheat physics, I'm just working with it instead of seeing it as some undauntable foe. Physics can be friendly! And physics says that magnets are a source of a constant amount of force that happens to affect the movement of electrons when it moves, also that magnets themselves can move when spurred by a movement of electrons. Draw on a circuit is movement of electrons, and if those electrons happen to be moving in a forward-spinning pattern, those magnets just might spin to match it. I respect the work of the great minds that have brought electric motors so far, but nowhere in the tomes of the ancients is it written in stone that a motor has to use switching DC brushes or some kind of timed alternating current.

Last edited by momono; 05-21-2008 at 02:10 PM.
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  #36  
Old 05-21-2008, 06:47 PM
Walkeer Walkeer is offline
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Default Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momono View Post
Look guys, what I'm proposing isn't that crazy. We know that magnets are a source of a constant amount of measurable force or energy, whatever you want to call it. The energy wouldn't be coming from nowhere, it would be coming from the magnets. The big difference is, the circuit would be geared to harness that energy instead of pitting its finite force in battery power against it. Regardless of what vocabulary you want to use, there is force there, a constant amount of force or energy, that can be used for something, just like a battery except it doesn't run down. There just has to be a better way of doing it all than what's been done for so long. After a century of runtime, I think some of the basic ideas behind electric motor systems could stand to be rethought along a few lines, that's all. But once again, it's not coming from nowhere, it's not infinite, and I didn't get the idea from the bloody internet. So far this is all from my head and the discussions I've had with others here and other places...
Energy = force * trajectory (vectors). constant force produces ZERO energy, if there isnt any movement on some trajectory. If you will push to the solid wall, you will give no energy to the wall. But if you wil pull the car and makes it move, you will give some kinetic energy to the movement of the car. This is important. Magnet doesnt radiate any energy, it is like a spring. It can pull or push something, byt it is imposible to create ANY machine that would be using magnets to constant energy production as it is impossible with springs. forget that magnet is any-way diffrent from springs, it is essentilly not.

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teachin...es/node58.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by weelliott View Post
Another way to think about it is that gravity is very much like magnetism. Magnets, and ferrous metals are drawn to a magnet just like everything is drawn to the earth. It is a force. You can't magically use gravity to get energy. You might argue that an object that is about to be dropped or descend in some manner has potential energy, but once it falls and stops, it is done. Gravity can't do anything more for you. Eventually you hit bottom. Then you have to put energy into the system to raise that object back up. Magnets are the same.

Granted you can turn magnets on and off, but that is just like turning gravity on and off. It doesn't gain you anything though.
There is one difference betwen gravity field and magnetic field and in my native czech language it is called "conservatism". No matter which closed trajectory you undertake in conservative field, when you return to your original position, you always ends with the same energy you have started with = closed trajectorries costs or gains zero eneregy. This does not apply to magnetic field, but does apply to electic fields. But as I understand it does not mean it is possible to create pepetual motion or anything like that.

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teachin...es/node59.html

sorry for my english.

Last edited by Walkeer; 05-21-2008 at 07:02 PM.
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  #37  
Old 05-22-2008, 08:15 AM
weelliott weelliott is offline
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Default Re: alternator as a range extender attachment?

The same applies in Physics taught in America, and is a good point. I just didn't think that that point was important for the analogy. I wasn't trying to create a full picture of how magentism compares to gravity, but just enough to show that magnetism isn't special, and that all the special things that momono had attributed to magnetism were also possessed by gravity.

As for your English. There are not apologies necessary. Your English is fine. It's much better than any of my foreign languages.

Now for the moving magnets that were mentioned earlier... In regards to switching the elctric field to switch the magnetic field, motors already do this. If it is to be accopmlished by physically turning the magnet, then that will take energy.
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  #38  
Old 05-22-2008, 03:07 PM
momono momono is offline
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Default Re: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that...

Quote:
Energy = force * trajectory (vectors). constant force produces ZERO energy, if there isnt any movement on some trajectory. If you will push to the solid wall, you will give no energy to the wall. But if you wil pull the car and makes it move, you will give some kinetic energy to the movement of the car. This is important. Magnet doesnt radiate any energy, it is like a spring. It can pull or push something, byt it is imposible to create ANY machine that would be using magnets to constant energy production as it is impossible with springs. forget that magnet is any-way diffrent from springs, it is essentilly not.
If what you guys are saying about motors and magnets is true, then electric motors shouldn't exist to begin with. It works because the electromagnets are constantly re-springing that spring. The only real difference is the application of force - so far, the mechanical consensus has been that repulsion and fast switching motion is what generates electricity, but I don't think that's what Faraday was saying necessarily, just some random set of beliefs that sprang up in the translation loss. I was brought up to understand that a magnet moves electrons in the coil, and the movement of those electrons itself is electricity. I made my coiling design reflect this - instinctively, to 'catch' the greatest possible fluid movement of electrons from the magnets, which would be spinning forward - it's a happy coincidence, though, that this may be just what is needed to reduce the magnetic drag created by the actual generation of electricity, and maybe even turn it around. This is the generator I've drawn up after a life of looking at rivers and seashells and clouds, where things spin and keep spinning, transforming even, because they literally go with the 'flow'. Once again, the problem with what you call 'perpetual' motion isn't any natural allowance or disallowance of the thing, it's the human-so-far maladaptation of a myopic and 2-dimensional thought process to something as strange and wonderful as magnets. Someone said the 'M' word (magic? oh nose!) earlier, and y'know, really it's just a word. We're monkeys swapping new vocabulary basically. The essential difference I can see is that this ingrown scientific mind as it's developed itself is severely out of tune with the phenomenal mystery of the Universe around it. It's a far cry from that original thinking-creature that left the forests for whatever reason, or even from the ancient Greeks who understood that the world had its physical orders and makeups which were inseparable from the spiritual or intelligent ones (the 'golden mean' was called as such because it was effectively a deity)... From that point to this I can't really call it progress necessarily, but I can say that everything happens for a reason and science too will 'grow into itself' from this current gawky adolescent.

Okay, that was a rant and a half. But really we're into those levels of thought-pattern-alteration already, so balls to the wall as they say. Back to the tech -

I've tooled my design a little more as well - I'll be building a 'pancake' style housing out of clear acrylic, except the hub won't be attached to any type of bearing surface but rather free-floating in the chamber with about 1/8 in. of space on all sides, sealed with a vaccuum pump connected to an automatic pressure gauge to ensure as little friction as possible. With strong neodymium magnets, this could theoretically be made very small (say 7-8in diameter), and spin very fast (as it needs to). There wouldn't be any connection to the front wheels or any moving piston whatsoever, just a self-enclosed hub spinning freely in space, suspended by the (rotating!) electromagnetic fields from all sides, according to the draw from the system. It would work I think kind of like a limited reverb effect... And the vaccuum pump could be used for your brakes and other stuff.

Last edited by momono; 05-22-2008 at 03:27 PM.
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  #39  
Old 05-22-2008, 03:26 PM
weelliott weelliott is offline
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Default Re: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that...

An important clarification is that a MOVING magnet makes electrons flow. Without movement that magent has no influence on the electrons at all. It takes movement. that is where the energy comes from to move the electrons. The movement of the magnetic field.
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  #40  
Old 05-22-2008, 04:22 PM
momono momono is offline
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Default Re: Alternators, Free Energy, Perpetual Motion, Over Unity and all that...

Well, yeah...
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