[PhantomPholly]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Disagree.

The comment was only to 'advocate' a position.

One can advocate a position doing nothing more than just 'talking' ... just speaking ones mind... writing a book ... etc.

That comment suggests such actions should have the person labeled as a traitor ... and treated as such ... which in the U.S. = Execution... just for doing something as simple as speaking one's mind... which is very much against the founding concepts of the U.S. ... very much against the concept of free speech ... very much against allot of things considered good or moral ... and I disagree with it... on many grounds.

- - - - -

I further disagree with the extreme generalization to lump all people who hold a position ... no matter what it is ( including Liberalism ) ... as all being the same... all wanting to overthrow the government or constitution ... all being traitors... all being worthy of execution ... etc.

That kind of demonization ... de-humanization ... gross generalization ... absolute statement ... I disagree with ... on it's own even outside of this context.

- - - - -

Free Speech swings both ways ... even when I am against what the other person advocates.

I do not and did not advocate for charging every idiot who believes in perpetual motion (which is analogous to the belief that Liberalism promotes Prosperity) with the crime of Treason - and to suggest that I did so is both rude and disingenuous.

Free speech is not unlimited - this has been upheld time and again. When decoupled from responsibility it leads to anarchy - this is empirically true and has been demonstrated across the millennium. All Rights must be weighed against the role of government to protect ALL of our Rights.

Publicly talking about killing elected representatives can net you jail time, as can yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

You can yammer all you want about the harmlessness of "just talking about" ideas which are fundamentally EVIL - but a Just society does not tolerate ideas that ultimately lead to intolerance and slavery. Did we not make Slavery illegal in our Constitution? If so, why does anyone believe it is a legitimate topic of conversation to discuss, demonstrate, and actively plan for a society in which we are economic slaves of the State?

No, you cannot have it both ways. Hiding behind "Free Speech" as an excuse to advocate for an idea which is hardly one moral step removed from advocating for the actual physical slavery of the bulk of the productive citizens of our country is simply a ploy that is part of a scam to trick the unwitting into relinquishing their God-given Rights. Such fraud is a crime and should result in incarceration.

Are some people simply misinformed about the aims of Liberalism? Certainly. Do I advocate that just any old citizen should be jailed for speaking about Liberalism in fond tones? Certainly not - and it was utterly disingenuous of you to suggest I had. I was clear - those to whom the word "Traitor" should apply are those officials entrusted with the safekeeping of our Constitution and sworn to protect it, yet who are actively working to subvert it. It is for that precise purpose that the crime was specifically included in the Constitution, and it should be exercised - regularly, if necessary.

[PhantomPholly]

Originally Posted by Duncan

Hi Phantom

Can't tell from your post what position you are taking - are you saying these folks DID, or DID NOT, support the notion that Personal Property is the foundation of Liberty?

I believe that these guys all supported the notion that Personal Property is one of the foundations of liberty

But that none of them supported the absolute "inviolability of personal property"

All of them supported controls and limitations on personal property

In some cases (Paine, Hamilton) substantial limitations!!

Ah yes, Hamilton - an early advocate for strong central government.

You do realize that until the United States every European nation had lived for centuries under one kind of King or another, and that for some the idea of self-rule seemed "unnatural?" Too, there is always some percentage of the most educated people who believe that they are superior to others, and thus should rule, simply because they have unlimited arrogance?

But if you look at the writings of the rest of your list, you will find that it is primarily about the subject of protection of personal property from arbitrary "taking" that led all of these great men in common cause to break with England. And, that the magnitude of the taking that got them so angry that they were willing to risk their lives to declare Independence was less than 10%?

These men understood that to take what is not earned is to subjugate those taken from, and that left to expand without limit the result was always slavery.

It's too bad people today can't seem to figure that out...

[PhantomPholly]

Originally Posted by karlos

Of far more concern is that infantry introduced his opinion as to what a 'traitor' is based on what he belives to be a "progressive" wanting to "go back to a tribal environment" etc. Bwaahahahahah!
Infantry has a right to his opinion just as Ian has in saying, even if that it is what the "progressives" want, they have a right to not only "want" it, but express their wants without being called "traitors" which I have absolutely no doubt, would be an abhorrent conclusion, to the 'Fathers'.

WAY off topic guys. Find another forum for this stuff.

This is chit-chat - the topic header clearly says, "Anything goes." I believe everyone in here is regularly behaves responsibly in not posting such opinions outside the chit-chat forums.

Too, for you to post sarcastic comments about Infantry's post while simultaneously mis-portraying his position and mis-portraying the aims of Progressive - and then to lecture US about off topic?????

YGBSM...

Like it or not, Politics and Free Speech have a clear bearing on the Climate Change debate. It is now publicly apparent that certain groups who identify themselves as Progressives are actively striving to squelch or limit free expression on this subject. Certain other groups who identify themselves as Conservatives or Independents are attempting to position themselves as "whistle blowers," even if there is some truth to the dangers represented by the AGW crowd. None of these politically-oriented groups are pristine.

While it's true that we here may make excursions from specific Climate Change issues, the debate is truly meaningless unless the biases and mis-representations of ALL sides of the issue are brought into the light and discussed. Those who seek to conceal will always seek to limit the discussion to prevent talk of the underlying agenda. Bring the actual agenda into the light, and arguments which seem specious originally will become suspect, if not utterly invalid.

So, Karlos, please take your sanctimonious lectures about what is and is not "on topic" and deposit them in the toilet where they belong.

Thank you.

We now return our viewers to the regularly scheduled free-for-all!

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by PhantomPholly

Originally Posted by gottdi

I'll respond in new thread where this discussion can be on topic.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...ad.php?t=51093

[karlos]

Originally Posted by PhantomPholly

So, Karlos, please take your sanctimonious lectures about what is and is not "on topic" and deposit them in the toilet where they belong.

Thank you.

No, Thank you for the lecture about my supposed lecturing and sanctimony.

Good to see you have taken the "traitor" digression to http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...ad.php?t=51093

Thanks Ian

[david85]

Back on the climate topic.....

Just found out about this.

http://omniclimate.wordpress.com/201...-observations/


English translation:

The historical meteorological observatory of the Collegio Romano, in operation for 228 years, has been told to vacate its premises occupied from 1879. To this moment, nobody knows where it will be moved to, and worse, nobody knows what will be the future location of its Library, immense historical Archives and collection of old instruments, a priceless heritage cared for during more than two centuries by many great people with lots of passion.
The situation arises from research cuts put in place on September 27 by the CRA (Council for Research and Experimentation in Agriculture). One has to wonder how they could agree on such a decision, what the real reasons could be and how it is possible that a “Research Institute” could throw away a historical *research* archive built for over two centuries!
The closure of the observatory at the Collegio Romano is a barbaric act, against the history, culture and meteorological tradition of Rome and of Italy. The observatory is a precious piece of history that once pulled apart, will never recover.
There are further questions about the decision since, in the words of staff at the observatory, “the premises are rent-free and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry has formally committed itself to support all operating expenses”. The Library, known as the Central Library of the Italian Meteorology, has been claimed as state property in 1998, and it is composed of more than 15,000 Italian and foreign, rare and valuable books of meteorology and geophysics, some dating back to the 1500s. It is also the main historical archvie for the meteorological and geophysics Italian studies in the modern age, and has been visited over the centuries by the likes of Galileo Galilei, Father Angelo Secchi, Enrico Fermi.
Alongside the books, there are many valuable weather and seismic instruments, showing the evolution of measurement systems in Italy. The historic weather archive – one of the few data series in the world covering several centuries – consists of over six million disaggregated data points for each weather variable.
The Bernacca Association, hoping to be joined in its efforts by other weather-related associations, is opposed to this decision. We want to save a priceless heritage that some “enlightened minds” are trying to squander.
SIGN THE PETITION
Please insert your real name (Nome) and family name (Cognome), a valid email (it will be used to confirm your support) and choose any password of your liking. You can leave a Comment in the Commento box

[Duncan]

Hi David
Re - Italian Collegio Romano

That seems such a short sighted affair when organisations like the Royal Navy are working to get their old records digitized

http://blogs.zooniverse.org/oldweath...omment-page-1/

[PhantomPholly]

Originally Posted by david85

Back on the climate topic.....

Just found out about this.

http://omniclimate.wordpress.com/201...-observations/


English translation:

Yep - you can't "adjust" historical evidence written on parchment...

[infantry11b]

and since the observations were made while still in the little ice age they are really of little relevance to temps today as everything will appear warmer than it did when ice was causing crops to die and people froze to death all over europe and asia.
it's like putting your hand in an ice box, getting cold and then taking your hand out and claiming that your warming hand is evidence of global warming.

[PhantomPholly]

Originally Posted by infantry11b

and since the observations were made while still in the little ice age they are really of little relevance to temps today as everything will appear warmer than it did when ice was causing crops to die and people froze to death all over europe and asia.
it's like putting your hand in an ice box, getting cold and then taking your hand out and claiming that your warming hand is evidence of global warming.

Actually, since the readings were taken all over the Atlantic it might be very valuable information. For instance, plotting all the times/locations/temps might give us insights as to whether things we take for granted, like the Gulf Stream, have changed or moved over that period (I believe the assumption is that the Gulf Stream has been fairly constant, but this data could confirm or disprove that theory).

As far as I can tell, a major difference between today's world and the world of the past is that it never occurred to them to fake fundamental data....