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  #1761  
Old 10-28-2010, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by david85 View Post
Once again, you are trying to put words into my mouth. Its not that simple.

I have already shown that regulators have fudged numbers regardless of what is found either by honest reporting of otherwise. In light of corruption like that, opposition is the only sensible option.
I did not intend to 'put word in your mouth' ... if I misunderstood your position I apologize.

I say 2 wrongs to not make either one right.

fudging numbers is wrong ... I don't care if the regulators do it ... they are wrong ... or if industry does it ... they are still wrong... or if a scientist does it ... he is still wrong.

I am in favor of backing up claims with the data/reasons and methods used to come to those claims ... by knowing the data and methods used we are able to evaluate conclusions ... no matter what they may be.

You have in the past seemed to represent the regulators fudging numbers as being a bad thing and that you disagree with it ... so I thought you were in favor of greater transparency ... but here in this context you side with those opposing transparency... that is what it seems like from my read of your posts.
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  #1762  
Old 10-28-2010, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

I'll try to explain then.

While in general, industry AND government should be asked for as much transperancy as possible, this is different.

Should you be open and transperant with a system that is inherantly flawed or corrupt? By consenting to such a system, you are enabling further abuses and doing no service to yourself either.

If this were an audit of on site run off water (and possible toxins there in), or emissions of soot/sulfuric acid or other confirmed reactive and toxic substances, then that would be different. But this is about CO2 which is in a class of regulation all it's own.

Indeed implementation of CO2 monitoring will be a considerable technological challenge even if it wasn't for examples of corruption that we saw in the last few years.
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  #1763  
Old 10-29-2010, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

it's a waste of time. who the hell cares how much co2 there is as there is no scientific data to actually connect it with anything.
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  #1764  
Old 10-29-2010, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

Well, in green houses it has been connected with higher crop production
Geological evidence suggests it might also correlate with higher biodiversity, but since that's not based on climate modeling, it can't possibly be true.....

Of course there is also the irrefutable proof of global rounding

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  #1765  
Old 10-29-2010, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

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Originally Posted by david85 View Post
Should you be open and transperant with a system that is inherantly flawed or corrupt? By consenting to such a system, you are enabling further abuses and doing no service to yourself either.
I agree with the second part.

I would answer the first part as , yes.

The reason I say yes to the first part ... despite the disadvantages of the second part ... is that I see the flaws or corruption of any such system as undesirable ... and I think the openness and transparency as the most effective / likely way to figure out how to improve things , including the reduction of or elimination of flaws and corruption... I also see the inverse as being counter productive , and unlikely to improve the state of that flawed, or corrupt system... I see being closed and refusals of transparency as helping to perpetuate and possibly increase things like flaws and corruption.

I will also agree ... I can see how to some people the disadvantages of the second part outweigh other considerations to them... that is just not my perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david85 View Post
Indeed implementation of CO2 monitoring will be a considerable technological challenge even if it wasn't for examples of corruption that we saw in the last few years.
I agree there are lots of examples of bad elements including , but not limited to corruption.

Without openness or transparency how would you suggest we gather reliable data? ... or study the data? ... how do you see a system of scientific and technological growth continuing without openness or transparency?
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  #1766  
Old 10-29-2010, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

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it's a waste of time. who the hell cares how much co2 there is as there is no scientific data to actually connect it with anything.
There is allot of scientific data connecting CO2 to things ... photosynthesis in plants... which farmers care a great deal about ... indirectly fishers care because the photosynthesis feeds the fish they want ... CO2 has also been scientifically shown to be able to change the ph of water ... etc.

I agree there are limits to resources and we have to balance what we spend... but I would disagree with the concept of it being a waste of time to study CO2 at all... even if it is or isn't a significant part of the global green house effect.
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  #1767  
Old 10-29-2010, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

Is South Pole Ice Melting? Gravity Field Satellites Observe Antarctic Ice Mass Fluctuations Due to El Niņo


Here is just one more piece of data / perspective... one more piece of complexity to the puzzle.
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  #1768  
Old 10-29-2010, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

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Originally Posted by IamIan View Post
I agree with the second part.

I would answer the first part as , yes.

The reason I say yes to the first part ... despite the disadvantages of the second part ... is that I see the flaws or corruption of any such system as undesirable ... and I think the openness and transparency as the most effective / likely way to figure out how to improve things , including the reduction of or elimination of flaws and corruption... I also see the inverse as being counter productive , and unlikely to improve the state of that flawed, or corrupt system... I see being closed and refusals of transparency as helping to perpetuate and possibly increase things like flaws and corruption.

I will also agree ... I can see how to some people the disadvantages of the second part outweigh other considerations to them... that is just not my perspective.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan View Post
Without openness or transparency how would you suggest we gather reliable data? ... or study the data? ... how do you see a system of scientific and technological growth continuing without openness or transparency?
The example you gave is not one of scientific exploration - it is one of political inquisition. Big difference.

So in light of that, rules of openness and transperancy need to start on the side of the authorities. And since they are often acting on information and internal reviews that thus far are still not seeing the light of day, cooperating with such a system would amount to willfully placing your neck on the guillotine.

Is a principle worth that much to you? Even if you did make that sacrifice, how will things get any better with you - or in this case - a private corporation being cut down by an ill concieved regulatory body?

Indeed I suspect these companies are trying to have it both ways, so my pity for them is limited. On the one hand they would be happy to post claims of reduced emissions publicly as an effort to wrap themselves in the green flag, but on the other hand it could really just a ploy to keep government at bay for a little longer. Chances are this will be a showdown that damages both sides as each tries to look as holy (green) as publicly possible. In the mean time, nothing really chances in terms of real pollution. But thats nothing new.
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  #1769  
Old 10-29-2010, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

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Is South Pole Ice Melting? Gravity Field Satellites Observe Antarctic Ice Mass Fluctuations Due to El Niņo


Here is just one more piece of data / perspective... one more piece of complexity to the puzzle.
Interesting but there are a few problems with that. First, global sea levels are leveling off, not increasing, so if there is supposed to be a singal - prove them wrong. The recorded data doesn't have the resolution to find their claimed amount of rising so its all hypothetical calculations.

Second, I trust this study more:

http://www.awi.de/en/research/resear..._measurements/

I've posted it earlier and while they do rely on modeling, they also use more measuring methods than any other type of research previously carried out on the issue of southern sea ice. Everything from drilling holes, to sonar readings, to low flying aircraft and satellite data.

As a side note, while it is a step in the right direction to use satellites for measuring the crysosphere (because you can measure wide surface area in a short amount of time and reduce measring errors), measuring based on gravity is currently very innaccurate. Makes me wonder why they didn't use the cryosat2 instead. No mention of either in the article though.
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  #1770  
Old 10-29-2010, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: The Climate Change Debate Thread

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Originally Posted by david85 View Post
The example you gave is not one of scientific exploration - it is one of political inquisition. Big difference.
I guess from my perspective it is only a minor ... nearly insignificant difference... oh well ... just a different point of view on that I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david85 View Post
So in light of that, rules of openness and transperancy need to start on the side of the authorities.
I would personally prefer both sides to take steps toward greater transparency on their own independent of each other or independent of who goes first ... but if someone has to be the one to start that off ... I agree the authorities are a good candidate ... and greater transparency of the authorities would also have secondary benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david85 View Post
And since they are often acting on information and internal reviews that thus far are still not seeing the light of day, cooperating with such a system would amount to willfully placing your neck on the guillotine.

Is a principle worth that much to you? Even if you did make that sacrifice, how will things get any better with you - or in this case - a private corporation being cut down by an ill concieved regulatory body?
I agree there are disadvantages / costs ... and I still understand some people would view those costs / disadvantages as being too high compared to the potential benefits.

That just does not happen to be my perspective.

But sense you asked ... yes ... when I make a claim ... any claim ... I always find it reasonable for someone else to ask me how I came to that claim ... what is or was my data , and method of arriving at that claim ... they might not agree with me about some of the data or methods ... which might lead to further dialogue ... which may end up resulting in disagreements anyway ... despite having information about where the claim came from ... but yes ... I always find it reasonable for them to ask for the background behind claims that I make ... if there is an exception to that ... I can't think of one at the moment.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by david85 View Post
Interesting but there are a few problems with that. First, global sea levels are leveling off, not increasing, so if there is supposed to be a singal - prove them wrong. The recorded data doesn't have the resolution to find their claimed amount of rising so its all hypothetical calculations.
If you are referring to the article statement,

Quote:
With 0.3 millimeters per year, both regions are currently contributing considerably to the global sea level change of about three millimeters per year.
I think that statement is a clear example of ... as they say at the bottom of the article,

Quote:
The above story is reprinted (with editorial adaptations by ScienceDaily staff)
That statement is not what the study was about ... nor did the study make any such claims ... seems like it was just added in for 'poetic license' , as one of those "editorial adaptations".

Quote:
Originally Posted by david85 View Post
Second, I trust this study more:

http://www.awi.de/en/research/resear..._measurements/

I've posted it earlier and while they do rely on modeling, they also use more measuring methods than any other type of research previously carried out on the issue of southern sea ice. Everything from drilling holes, to sonar readings, to low flying aircraft and satellite data.
That is a fine study ... but it is more of a multi-study of other individual studies.

This particular study would be like taking the SIMS study on its own outside of the combined multi-study you linked to.

at some point in the future maybe someone will do another multi-study of other individual studies that will include this one ... but on it's own ... it is just one study ... just like the SIMS study on its own was just one study, outside of the multi-study you liked.

I think the study the article touch on can be basically summed up in this quote,

Quote:
"The cooler La Nina years lead to a strong low pressure area over the Amundsen Sea, which favors heavy rainfall along the Antarctic Peninsula -- the ice mass is increasing there. In contrast, the Amundsen area is dominated by dry air from the interior during this time. El Niņo years with their warm phase lead to precisely the opposite pattern: reduced rainfall and mass loss in the Antarctic Peninsula, and an increase in the Amundsen Sectorfield, respectively," explains Professor Maik Thomas
So I still think,

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamIan
Here is just one more piece of data / perspective... one more piece of complexity to the puzzle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david85 View Post
As a side note, while it is a step in the right direction to use satellites for measuring the crysosphere (because you can measure wide surface area in a short amount of time and reduce measring errors), measuring based on gravity is currently very innaccurate. Makes me wonder why they didn't use the cryosat2 instead. No mention of either in the article though.
While it might have been nice for the article to go into a bit more depth about the different types of sensors being deployed ... they didn't.

The CRYOSAT2 studies also do not go into GRACE at all either ... most studies I have read do not spend much time on things that they are not studying.

What makes you dismissive ( it seems ) of the accuracy of gravity measurements ? ... from what I've read it is being done very accurately... GRACE as resulted in measurements within 1 millionth of 1 G.
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