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Old 10-24-2009, 09:46 PM
dexion dexion is offline
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Default Took the lifepo4 plunge

Well, after some long thinking I decided to upgrade my saturn with lifepo4 cells. My lead pack just barely makes it back (fine for getting there its all downhill) from work so it was either more lead or lifepo4 cells. I am glad (on paper anyhow I went with lifepo4 cells.) I ordered them on monday 10/19 and recieved them friday 10/23rd via fedex freight to my office in detroit. So far about all I have done is unpack them and verify they aren't squishfied. At the moment I am charging them all to 3.5V in attempt to start the pack off as ballanced as I can get. For now I am not going to use any bms solution I will monitor the cells manually like I have done with my TS powered bike. I have several options for a bms in mind if it turns out to be needed. Ah well its only money . I have more of a write up on my blog not too much info so far since they haven't been mounted in the car yet even. Its from a different company here in the usa that I haven't really heard anyone talk with. But after many long conversations with them I decided to take the plunge. I will update the blog (more info on the batteries and why I ordered what I did on the 10/20 post) and here (if anyone is interested here that is) with my experience.




thanks
dex

Last edited by dexion; 10-24-2009 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:18 PM
ahambone ahambone is offline
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Default Re: Took the lifepo4 plunge

Congratulations on going LiFePO4! The most important part of any battery management is the low voltage cutoff (LVC) function. This is where the BMS tells you to stop driving when any individual cell goes below ~2.1 volts. Please be careful monitoring your cells while you use them without a BMS. You are running a big risk of killing one cell or the entire pack.

It can be very easy for you to read a "safe" voltage for your entire pack because many cells are still at ~3.0 volts and one weaker cell drops below 2.0 volts, which can damage the LiFePO4 cell.

Please read everything you can about low-voltage cutoff on lithium cells and monitory your pack very closely. If you are looking for cheaper BMS solutions please investigate either volt blochers or the Goodrum/Fechter BMS kit over at http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=26 .

(Note: I have no affiliation with the GF BMS or VB BMS. I've built two GF BMS systems from their kits and am satisfied with my testing so far of the units. As I understand it both products work as advertised and can help users from killing cells!)

Cheers,
--Adam
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:21 PM
ahambone ahambone is offline
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Default Re: Took the lifepo4 plunge

Udpate: The G/F BMS kits can be bought pre-assembled at this site:

http://rechargeablelithiumpower.com/...alog/index.php

Cheers,
--Adam
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  #4  
Old 10-24-2009, 10:29 PM
dexion dexion is offline
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Default Re: Took the lifepo4 plunge

I agree dont run them below 2.0 (thats where these are speced 3.65-2.0) but I also WORRY about putting something like those boards or VB's in the environment of a car (dirty, noisey, bumpy, hot, cold etc.) The cells have a three year warranty and aren't very costly to replace after the warranty period as well compared to putting something to manage 43 cells onboard. I just am leary about too many points of failure. I would rather have a battery go belly up rather than have something short on a board every battery is connected to or even have an issue with a VB and have that go up. Sort of the devil you know deal. If I kill a battery there isnt likely to be a fire. I may regret it later I suppose for now I will monitor and test and see what the data points too. Oh, a bit about my commute. I was doing about 200WH a mile with LA i rarely pull over 100amps. I will be driving at about a 50% dod and charging at work so in my case it just may not be needed (like my TS scooter I installed a paktraker just to see that it just wasnt an issue with only a 50% dod run with a charge to full and back again.) I suppose I could pull the paktraker off the bike and put it on 24 cells of the car and watch them but again, its a point of failure. I am sure there are cases a lvc is needed and wanted but if I have a cell that cant handle 50% dod without going below 2.0V I want it to die and be replaced under warranty.
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Last edited by dexion; 10-24-2009 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:44 PM
ahambone ahambone is offline
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Default Re: Took the lifepo4 plunge

If you are reading the cell voltages between every drive or every two drives then you will probably be safe enough. I just wanted to make sure you knew the risks. It sounds like you know what's going on.

As for the EV vibration/shock issues for the BMS, there are dozens of circuit boards mounted in every car that withstand road vibration without issue. Just use stranded wire for all of your monitor/balancer connections and package the BMS boards in a rubber-footed box and you should be fine. The same is true with your on-board charger, controller, etc.

Cheers,
--Adam
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:51 PM
dexion dexion is offline
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Default Re: Took the lifepo4 plunge

Heh im so anal about this, every time I stop I read the voltages. During charging I read voltages every hour. If I had a bms I still would, if I had a big lcd screen (that SE wanted to sell me) I still would. Right I would mount everything on shock mounts if I decided to use it. But unless you have "driven" on detroits roads you would not understand how poorly they are maintained. There are many 40mpg roads you cant go over 15-20 mph fo blocks at a time because most of the road isnt there any more. I want to move to hawaii hehe.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:01 PM
ahambone ahambone is offline
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Default Re: Took the lifepo4 plunge

If you are breaking out the volt meter that often then you will certainly be fine. Most users aren't that attentive (even the really focused EV zealots among us!). Please post back to this forum with notes on your performance/range information with your cells.

Believe it or not Houston roads are often not much better. Austin roads were great but for career reasons we don't live there anymore . There are definitely lanes I have to avoid here. I'm working on on packaging for my LiFePO4 array that is based on Headway cylindrical cells. Rubberizing the battery box is a major concern for me.

Cheers,
--Adam
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Old 11-03-2009, 07:57 AM
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Default Re: Took the lifepo4 plunge

How about some details on the cells you are using? Make, cost, construction, discharge curves, where to purchase, etc. I saw one picture had the label "Blackhawk" but could not find any info on these cells. I too am going without a BMS, for now. I've seen too many people running successfully without one, and my feeling is if you size your pack correctly and don't go to extremes you won't need one, and if you do go to extremes your pack is too small.
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:21 AM
Voltswagen Voltswagen is online now
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Default Re: Took the lifepo4 plunge

JR
Instead of an expensive BMS system why not just set up an LVC or audible alarm on your weakest cell? That would be the cell to fail before all others. And if you eventually replace that cell with a healthy one then just go to your next weakest cell. Make sense?

And I agree with your statement that "If you go to extremes then your pack is too small."
The pack should be slightly oversized to begin with. For example, I was planning on 37 LifePo
to get me to 118.4 v nominal on a 120 v system. Now I know I will install 40 instead.
I'll actually buy 44 to have a few spares on the shelf in the event of a premature failure.
I'm really good at arcing batteries.
Roy

Last edited by Voltswagen; 11-03-2009 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:46 AM
dexion dexion is offline
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Default Re: Took the lifepo4 plunge

They ended up being about $160 per 100 amp hour cell including shipping (4 days to get the cells from order to delivery to my office.) Thats more than ts or se cells, but they have a 3 year warranty. The cells are in stock in the usa so:
1. No cost to ship from china to the usa
2. No customs hassles/costs
3. Their shipping seemed to be less than 1/2 of what the other places I tried to get se cells from was going to be.
4. They actually take credit cards for payments.

My price for SE cells ended up being (with all the extra costs) about $155 (This is extrapolated from the cost of 60ah cells at $94 each I was going to buy but I could never actually get them until way too late to take a payment.) for each cell after everything was tacked on so but I wouldnt have to wait for 45 days to get the cells and the warranty is much better.


So cost is the same or a few bucks more but its in stock and shipped quickly. The company is powerforceusa.com the guy I delt with is named
Lorne Hatchard. I haven't had a chance to actually test them aside from charging them as due to a mess up I didnt get interconnects which they shipped out later.

From what they told me (but I have no way to verify) they do military contracts for the government so things have to be just so on their cells. They ended up giving me a special mix on the cells (they say) that is supposed to be able to handle colder climates better (I'm in detroit.) I actually am the first that they know of car conversion using their cells. All in all the cells seem very well put together. Here is a spec sheet on them: I have discharge curves and other graphs, but I cant post them since they are part of a word doc. If you want me to email them to you just drop me a PM.



Hawk LiFePO4





Specifications of 3.2v100ah

















CONTENTS




1. SPECIFICATIONS .................................................. ............................... 3
2. CHARACTERISTIC CURVES............................................ ........................ 3
3.0 CHARACTERISTICS................................... ........................................... 4
3.1 ELECTRO-CHEMICAL CHARACTERISTIC.................................... ............ 4
3.2 SAFETY CHARACTERISTIC.................................... ............................... 5
3.3 ADAPTATION TO ENVIRONMENT CHARACTERISTIC............................ 7
4. INDICATIONS ON BATTERY PACK.............................................. ............ 9
5. WARNINGS AND CAUTIONS IN USING THE BATTERY............................. 9
6. OTHERS............................................ ................................................. 10
7. AMENDMENT OF THIS SPECIFICATION..................................... .......... 10



Model

3.2V/100AH

Case Material

Plastic Case

Typical Capacity

100Ah

Minimal Capacity

99.5Ah

Nominal Voltage

3.3V

Max. Charge Voltage

3.85V

Discharge Cut-off Voltage
2.0V
Max. Charge Current

1 C5A

Max. Discharge Current/Peak

3 C5A/ 8C

Battery Size

280*160*70mm

Weight (Approx.)

3.5Kg

ImpedanceMax, at 1000Hz.

1.3mΩ (charged status)


Charge Method


(CC/CV)


Standard


0.2 C5A×7.5hrs


Quick


1C5A×2.5hrs.


Operating Temperature


Charge


045


32oF113oF


Discharge


-2060


-4oF140oF


Storage


-2045


-4oF113oF










1









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Last edited by dexion; 11-03-2009 at 09:58 AM.
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