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  #11  
Old 04-23-2010, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

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Originally Posted by procupine14 View Post
does that make it a double collector? I think EVs in certain regards are almost worth more if they were to be parted out and sold when you plan to build a new one than if they are left all together considering the amount of conversions selling way below the price of their individual parts when I've looked....very interesting....we need an EV Kelly Blue Book
Like that little truck in the other thread here! He could have purchased it for $500 I think. You could definitely buy that truck and make some money selling the parts individually. That's an extreme example, but it illustrates the point you just made well. If you have an S10 with a Zilla and a Warp 11, you may be better off auctioning the parts and scrapping the truck. Interesting.
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  #12  
Old 04-23-2010, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

I don't think I have a financial value on my tractor. It costs a little bit of money but less then I would be spending on some other kind of entertainment or a few rounds in the local once or twice a week.
I see it as a small price to pay for some fun and entertainment.

My MR2 will, or should be, a financial dead loss in many respects. The savings from not using oil will not really cover the investment of money in the batteries and other parts. Then there is the labour element.

It is one reason why I found a car I thought I would be happy to own and drive into the ground. If I can keep it going for as long as possible then eventually it will 'earn its keep' in small savings and convenience but mostly in being different.

In many ways I should have chosen a different donor. I have no affiliation at all to the MR2, there is no love or hate, no passion, no history.
An MGB or a Land Rover would have been a better choice, even a BMW 2002 or a Ford Escort mk1.
It is probably because of that that I have the tractor project, something with passion.

The MR2 I can, and would, sell at the drop of a hat at any time for a reasonable sum, with or without the ev parts, but probably without as the parts can be reused.
The Tractor I wouldn't sell, it would be like selling a child! However, I could pass it on, like seeing a child married off I guess.
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  #13  
Old 04-23-2010, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

My opinion on the resale value of an electric vehicle. If you have a lot of hype behind you and build something like the Tesla you can find a few that are ready to plunk down a bundle of ca$h for your car. If you are a shade tree mechanic like most of us it will be harder to get a good return on your investment. One of the reasons people are leery of electric vehicles could be due to their lack of understanding of electricity. I know gas cars are pretty complex now days but most of the public are comfortable with them because the internal combustion engine has been around for a while and is part of the norm so they think they know how they work. Also most ev’s for sale are used and being electric the condition of the components are suspect. Buying a used car has always been considered sort of a risk. It is probably more so with an ev. I mean if you buy a new or rebuilt car part like a water pump or a carburetor and need to return it most likely the parts house will take it back. Not so with most electrical components. So these could be a factors in selling a used ev.
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

I've shopped for an electric car on Craigslist. It's a bit tough, I found 2 in Minnesota. I wasn't interested in buying one now but wanted to see what was around. One was a Fiero and another was a cheap rusty Pontiac. Both were being sold with lead acid batteries that had seen better days. The motor manufacturer I hadn't heard of and the controller wasn't listed.

Basically what I'm getting at is this:
When you buy an EV or build one, there are certain parts that people pay attention to, for me, I won't go with a Curtis DC, I don't want the whine, so I have something to replace. Lead-acid replace. Motor can't handle the voltage for the battery replacement or can't provide the power I want motor gets replaced. In many cases all I'm going to use is some of the wire and probably the ancillary components if they are installed. If I do that I might as well start from scratch. ...but if it comes with a familiar setup that provides what I want and maybe just needs a lead conversion to Lithium, I might consider something like that but the car needs to fit my needs too.

A car purchasing decision for a gasser is a personal enough choice, there are even more options and directions to go when doing an electric conversion so basically the seller sits with a very small buyer base.

IMO if you are building an EV today, you want to be sure that you are buying something you want to keep for a long time. Either that or you might just be parting it out onto eBay, Craigslist, and sites like these.
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  #15  
Old 04-24-2010, 02:23 AM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

At least here in Seattle WA USA, decently done, modern, operational DC conversions on the secondary market seem to go for anywhere from about 70% to 100% of a typical retail conversion cost to replicate the car. This is largely independent of what the value of the vehicle was before the conversion. Case and point, it cost my about $8000 in EV components (not counting chassis restoration) to convert my MR2. It's reliable and running fine, but right now the batteries are pretty weak. So if I were to sell now (I'm not, just an example) I'd probably ask about $5500, which is roughly 70% of $8000. If I put new batteries in first, I'd probably ask the $8K and hope for the best.

If the car is a heap, or the conversion is outdated or poorly done, or not operational for any reason other than weak batteries, then you are looking at a few thousand typically.

This impression garnered from watching local sales on craigslist and through SEVA.

As for conversions becoming collector items, I sort of doubt it is likely except for very well done conversions of otherwise desirable or unique vehicles. I doubt my 1985 lead acid MR2 conversion will ever be a classic owing to its being a conversion. But if somebody did a nice clean conversion of a 1950's chevy nomad with a dual 9", Z2K and lithium, it might hold value.

I also think that conversions on the secondary market are likely to lose value as soon as it is possible to buy a reasonably priced mass market EV. Case and point, the nissan leaf will cost about 25K after tax credits for decent small car performance and 100 miles range. It is possible for that same budget to build an AC conversion with similar range, but it is still a homebuilt and many people, comparing the two will assign more value to the commercial product. it will get even more extreme if and when enough nissan leafs, Mitsubishi imievs, etc. get onto the used market at some fraction of their original price, but still with decent range and performance.

Convert for the love of it. Or convert at an hourly rate for somebody else. Convert-and-sell has always been difficult to make profitable, and I think it is going to get worse.
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Last edited by madderscience; 04-24-2010 at 02:32 AM.
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  #16  
Old 04-24-2010, 06:15 AM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

Wow, this is awesome feedback guys! Aren't there any gals around here?!

As I said, I am not really interested in or concerned about resale value of my projects. I just had a general curiousity about it. I am building my street rod as a busines marketing tool, so its value is measured much differently than resale. My e-bike project is for me. It's my toy that I want just because I want it. I don't care what it's worth, it just has to make me smile.

Actually, what you guys are describing is the beginning of a niche market. That creates the possibility that some of these conversions could be worth something significant someday. The reason muscle cars and custom hot rods are selling for such incredible numbers today is fifty years ago (or more) they were someone's fantasy car. They basically pick up where they left off years ago (to go to school, get married, raise families, etc) and continue - only some of them have a lot of money to spend now. If DIY EVs are being built out of passion now, they could be revisted in the same way in the future. That's a big "if" but I am just observing possibilities - for fun.

My point here is not to try to figure out how to capitalize on something, or make it happen. I'm just trying to fully embrace the moment in time we're in. If it did happen, imagine remembering being on this forum while watching Woody's tractor go across the Barrett-Jackson stage for a half-million bucks! Don't worry Woody, the proceeds are going to your favorite charity and the new owner is putting it in a museum to preserve an important part of EV history!

I just have this deja vu thing in my head. I was a kid, but I was there when muscle cars were burning up their bias-plies. I watched hot rodding turn from a small cottage industry to the major force that it is today. You can go purchase a new Camaro with over 400 horsepower today, but for some people that will never compare to building an original 69 to their own specs.

The issue of value is even similar. When I was in high school, you could purchase tri-five Chevies, in decent condition, for a few hundred bucks. Old muscle cars were cheap transportation (gas was 59-cents a gallon when I started driving ). Just like you guys are saying with parting out EVs, you could buy cars that would be worth good money today cheap then, for parts.

Like I said, I am just enjoying the moment we're in. No motives, no expectations - it just feels familiar. It's a lot of fun.
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  #17  
Old 04-24-2010, 07:05 AM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

Ah. For the good old days. Location S. Calif. I remember sliding into the full service gas station in my Jet black 57 Ford custom cab Pickup with a 260 V8 and insisting on pumping the twenty five cent a gallon high test myself. There was literally a gas station on just about every corner and they would have a gas wars bringing it down to 19cents a gallon or less. No one harping on me about my carbon foot print as I slopped that goop into the tank. That was 1962 and there were individuals building electric cars back then. The post office even had electric mail delivery trucks. I wonder what the value would be set at today for one of those vehicles? Chances are it would be more than a freshly converted EV. So there is hope for Woody’s tractor. The question is will any of us live to see it?
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  #18  
Old 04-24-2010, 08:08 AM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

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Originally Posted by toddshotrods View Post
Wow, this is awesome feedback guys! Aren't there any gals around here?!
No, they have too much sense...


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Originally Posted by toddshotrods View Post
As I said, I am not really interested in or concerned about resale value of my projects.
I think a stark distinction needs to be made between a unique vehicle like your's, Todd, versus an ordinary Honda/Ford/Geo/Toyota/etc.

The tangerine orange Cord replica that Speedster/RebirthAuto built has a standing offer, IIRC, north of $200k.

Don't expect to receive the same sort of offers for some 1980's econo-car equipped with a used forklift motor, Lovejoy coupling and plate aluminum adapter, a wheezing Curtis controller and saggy lead-acid batteries.

That said, it does appear that the conversion business is a particularly tough one to make a living. I much prefer manufacturing the stuff compared to installing it
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  #19  
Old 04-24-2010, 08:36 AM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

If you want to sell a converted EV, now is the time. Cars like the Leaf/Volt/iMev/etc will quickly drive down the value of conversions. A lot of people bought or did conversions because that was the only way to drive an electric car. That exclusivity is going away quickly.

I think, in the future, the only EVs that will hold value are those that are so unique they stand out. A well done conversion of a classic car might be popular with the hot rod and collector crowd, but even the nicest Honda Civic conversion will pale in comparison to cars like the Leaf and lose value quickly.
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  #20  
Old 04-24-2010, 08:41 AM
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Default Re: Value of an EV (real and perceived)

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No, they have too much sense...
There are an ever-increasing number of women in hot rodding and racing, and "green" seems to appeal to them even more than us. I'm just surprised they're not represented here. At least not actively.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesseract View Post
...I think a stark distinction needs to be made between a unique vehicle like your's, Todd, versus an ordinary Honda/Ford/Geo/Toyota/etc.

The tangerine orange Cord replica that Speedster/RebirthAuto built has a standing offer, IIRC, north of $200k...
Antique and classic cars kind of stand on their own merit, as far as value. The choice of powetrain is more about the quality of the installation and how well it works. There are so many different possibile combinations that what specific powertrain is just a matter of personal preference.

I personally think electric is perfect for many antique-type vehicles because the silent, torquey, power delivery adds something to the whole. That can lead to increased value.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesseract View Post
...I much prefer manufacturing the stuff compared to installing it
Same here. Actually, my preference is to be in the initial design process and move on to the next item when manufacturing starts. I actually sold my shop to get out of the installation/modification side of things. I'm much happier being on the other side of the equation.
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