[JOT 12directblue.com]

Eric,

"Equivalent: 60-80cc Gas Engine" is referred to the gas engines used in model airplanes. That is, two stroke engines. They are far more powerful than 4 stroke gas engines for any given size. That will help you explain the "miracle". Regarding engines and motors, there are no "miracles", only sound calculations like the ones I'm giving you here.

I know calculations often look difficult, but believe me, it isn't.

[JOT 12directblue.com]

In order to get further price reductions, batteries are the next target.

A 14kW system is about $6,500 with lithium batteries for $2,500 and a $500 BMS.

If four 12v lead deep cycle batteries are used, the price for the batteries would be about $600, and no need for BMS. So again the price for the 14kW system can drop by $2,400. That is, the new price would be:

$4,100

These batteries can be recycled from telecom companies, getting them very cheap. Say $100. That would leave the price for the 14kW system at

$3,600

Surely range would be affected, down to about 12 miles, and battery weight would double. But still a working system.

Of course, if someone is willing to design and machine the pinions and motor supports by himself, the cost can be further reduced to a few hundred dollars.

[DavidDymaxion]

One humble suggestion: Why not start with a bicycle test. You would just need one controller and motor. Gear it way down with some bike sprockets and chain. Then you can see if the system will survive long hill climbs.

[esoneson]

Originally Posted by JOT 12directblue.com

Eric,

OK, no power assist hybrid. Still, in the simplest version it will be required to keep the gas engine idling to get power assist for the steering and brakes. Or electric vacuum pump and steering pump can be mounted, therefore allowing to drive purely on electric.

If your car is about 3000 pounds it is a bit too heavy for this 14kW system, I'm sorry to say, even if there are not 30% losses as in conventional propulsion systems. The 14kW system is intended for city driving mostly. Perhaps it can be used on a flat highway below 45mph or so in a small car. But not in such a heavy car.

Assuming the motors are 3.5kW continous power, that would be 7kW. Because of the efficiency of the transmission, that equals to 10kW in a conventional engine setup (with 30% transmission losses), or about 13HP. Perhaps a small car could travel at 45mph on a flat road with 13HP. You should not expect more than that from the 14kW system, and I think it is already quite a lot from such an inexpensive setup.

If you're not satisfied with that power for your present car, you have three options.
1) Buy a cheap small urban car and add the kit to it.
2) Go for a more powerful setup for your existing car or buy an EV.
3) Do nothing and keep to your gas bills.

I'm sorry to say you are wrong again with the comparison between Poulsen and us. They only have a working prototype, we have real world motors manufactured in series and a few trivial CNC parts to manufacture. That's a big difference. The motor, the heart of the Poulsen system seems to be nowhere near to a big production figure. Which waiting list would you prefer?

We will be building a prototype starting in september as I said. No need to put anyone to shame

Thanks for your comments

Thank you for the further clarifications. It takes me a while to have this stuff sink in. Just to let you know, I had a Yamaha 125cc two stroke twin cylinder motorcycle some time back. It could propel me to 45 MPH with very little problem on a flat surface. Hills were another matter. It weighed 192 LBS. So it was a good flat surface 45 MPH vehicle for that size motor. I also had a 1340CC Harley Davidson that weighed 600 pounds. I know that if the Yamaha engine here propelling the Harley Davidson, it might get to 45 MPH on a downhill slope, but highly unlikely on a flat surface. And that's with only 600 pounds.

So, let's say I have a vehicle that only weighs 1200 pounds (which is half the weight of your stated lower limit for your kit application). The 125cc two-stroke Yamaha twin cylinder engine will never get that vehicle up to 45 MPH in city traffic or sub-urban traffic situations even on flat terrain.

Perhaps you have over-estimated the vehicle size that your kit will be able to handle? Perhaps David's suggestion is more in line with the size motors you are thinking about using.

Like I said, I am a simple man and look at things with an open mind. Because, you never know when someone might have that great idea. But the numbers still don't add up. Addition is one of my strong suits. 160cc equivalent motor will not propel a 1200 pound car on flat surfaces in city traffic without causing major headaches for all the other drivers around you.......let along 2400-3000 pounds as you have stated earlier. Get a bigger motor might be the answer.....but then the costs for that solution are not competitive.

I don't have any alternate solutions. Your suggested motor size won't do the job, your alternate (use the larger motors) is not cost effective. What I thought you had was a cost effective solution that would get the job done. But, I just don't see it adding up.

Thank you for taking the time to listen, I appreciate you explaining things and I am interested in a hybrid solution that would give me 30 miles of no-gas driving.

Also, your English is very good. You put me to shame with my ill-constructed composures.

Eric

[JOT 12directblue.com]

Thank you, it is a good approach. The answer is probably yes. As I wrote before, a professional cyclist is about 500W continuous. The smallest motor we are considering is 6,000W peak. It is very liikely that a 500W performance will be no big deal for this motor.

[JOT 12directblue.com]

Originally Posted by esoneson

Thank you for the further clarifications. It takes me a while to have this stuff sink in. Just to let you know, I had a Yamaha 125cc two stroke twin cylinder motorcycle some time back. It could propel me to 45 MPH with very little problem on a flat surface. Hills were another matter. It weighed 192 LBS. So it was a good flat surface 45 MPH vehicle for that size motor. I also had a 1340CC Harley Davidson that weighed 600 pounds. I know that if the Yamaha engine here propelling the Harley Davidson, it might get to 45 MPH on a downhill slope, but highly unlikely on a flat surface. And that's with only 600 pounds.

So, let's say I have a vehicle that only weighs 1200 pounds (which is half the weight of your stated lower limit for your kit application). The 125cc two-stroke Yamaha twin cylinder engine will never get that vehicle up to 45 MPH in city traffic or sub-urban traffic situations even on flat terrain.

Perhaps you have over-estimated the vehicle size that your kit will be able to handle? Perhaps David's suggestion is more in line with the size motors you are thinking about using.

Like I said, I am a simple man and look at things with an open mind. Because, you never know when someone might have that great idea. But the numbers still don't add up. Addition is one of my strong suits. 160cc equivalent motor will not propel a 1200 pound car on flat surfaces in city traffic without causing major headaches for all the other drivers around you.......let along 2400-3000 pounds as you have stated earlier. Get a bigger motor might be the answer.....but then the costs for that solution are not competitive.

I don't have any alternate solutions. Your suggested motor size won't do the job, your alternate (use the larger motors) is not cost effective. What I thought you had was a cost effective solution that would get the job done. But, I just don't see it adding up.

Thank you for taking the time to listen, I appreciate you explaining things and I am interested in a hybrid solution that would give me 30 miles of no-gas driving.

Also, your English is very good. You put me to shame with my ill-constructed composures.

Eric

Eric,

I think there was something wrong with your Yamaha. 80cc two strokes are capable of speeds over 60mph...

Also to the calculations:

Peugeot is moving a 307 cabrio EV with a 17kW fuel cell and a small battery for 300 miles. After the battery is over, it is clear that the only propulsion can come from the 17kW. And it seems it works:

http://www.greencar.com/articles/psa...-unfolding.php

Further on that, a Peugeot 106 electrique is 2,310 lbs and 56mph top speed:

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/4sale/...%20VEHICLE.htm

And it is 11kW continuous, 20kW peak:

http://www.ciao.de/Peugeot_106_electric__Test_2883651

11 kw Motorleistung Nennleistung (11kW nominal power)
Maximalleistung 20 kW von 1.600 bis 5.500 U/min (maximum power 20kW from 1,600 to 5,500 rpm)

Those are concrete figures. Past experiences with motorbikes are OK, but something is getting "lost in translation"

I totally agree to have an open mind, exactly for the same reason. It is also why I give the same importance and respect to anyone, you never know who's going to come up with a decisive idea. (Experience says it will be someone else every time).

In case the 14kW power figure were wrong for a small car (it is backed by the power figures I just gave you), you could still go for a higher power, like the 30kW system. We said it is $3,900 for the motors and controllers. Let's say all other parts are $3,000, including 4 lead batteries for $600. That makes $6,900 for a system whose closest competitor is a "we will notify you" (product availability) for $10,000 or a converion for $12,000. How can you say our product will not be competitive?

Of course if you need 30 miles range, then you have to get the lithium batteries. These are adding about $2,400 to the cost, which goes close to 10,000. But it is still competitive, because we will be offering a better product than other competitors.

Thank you about my english. Yours is also good

[Duncan]

Hi JOT

There is a lot of skepticism here - the best way forwards is to build the thing

Once you have hardware and test results you will see what works

Personally I am most skeptical about the actual wheel mechanisms, there is not much space there on most cars and anything you add would have to be capable of surviving a nasty environment with water, gravel and all sorts of stuff we run over in a year, branches, possums, rabbits..

[JOT 12directblue.com]

Hi Duncan,

I understand that there is skepticism, and yes, we will build a prototype from september on. We will probably use recycled telecom batteries, for a cheapest version. We will keep you posted.

Yes, the parts will need some protection. But if you're going to run over possums and rabbits, if you have to, I suggest you install a fishing net too, so that at least you can have the rabbit for dinner. Even better, don't run over any animals, we don't want any issue with Greenpeace

[DavidDymaxion]

One nice thing about electric power is you can just do Volts * Amps, and then derate for efficiency loss.

Comparing to displacement: We have a 100 cc minibike that barely goes 15 or 20 mph and can't handle hills at all. We also have a Yamaha KT-100 100 cc racing kart that beats the 300 hp full size car at autocross! You can feel yourself getting pushed back. It easily hits 50 or 60 mph, limited by gearing. It roars up hills like they aren't there. It would go significantly faster with taller gearing. Kart + rider is 500 to 600 lbs. Note, however, the motor is only expected to go around 50 to 100 hours between rebuilds!

Originally Posted by esoneson

Thank you for the further clarifications. It takes me a while to have this stuff sink in. Just to let you know, I had a Yamaha 125cc two stroke twin cylinder motorcycle some time back. It could propel me to 45 MPH with very little problem on a flat surface. Hills were another matter. It weighed 192 LBS. So it was a good flat surface 45 MPH vehicle for that size motor. I also had a 1340CC Harley Davidson that weighed 600 pounds. I know that if the Yamaha engine here propelling the Harley Davidson, it might get to 45 MPH on a downhill slope, but highly unlikely on a flat surface. And that's with only 600 pounds.

So, let's say I have a vehicle that only weighs 1200 pounds (which is half the weight of your stated lower limit for your kit application). The 125cc two-stroke Yamaha twin cylinder engine will never get that vehicle up to 45 MPH in city traffic or sub-urban traffic situations even on flat terrain.

Perhaps you have over-estimated the vehicle size that your kit will be able to handle? Perhaps David's suggestion is more in line with the size motors you are thinking about using.

Like I said, I am a simple man and look at things with an open mind. Because, you never know when someone might have that great idea. But the numbers still don't add up. Addition is one of my strong suits. 160cc equivalent motor will not propel a 1200 pound car on flat surfaces in city traffic without causing major headaches for all the other drivers around you.......let along 2400-3000 pounds as you have stated earlier. Get a bigger motor might be the answer.....but then the costs for that solution are not competitive.

I don't have any alternate solutions. Your suggested motor size won't do the job, your alternate (use the larger motors) is not cost effective. What I thought you had was a cost effective solution that would get the job done. But, I just don't see it adding up.

Thank you for taking the time to listen, I appreciate you explaining things and I am interested in a hybrid solution that would give me 30 miles of no-gas driving.

Also, your English is very good. You put me to shame with my ill-constructed composures.

Eric

[JOT 12directblue.com]

Eric,

If you are looking for a cheap commuter solution, I suggest the following:

Buy a compact light car for $1,000 with no power steering and possibly no vacuum pump. Rear wheels should have good clearance for the system. Cars without vacuum pump are not easy to find, I think the old Fiat Panda is like that. In the worst case, a small car with no power steering, there are many of those.

Install the cheap 14kW system with 4 telecom batteries. The weight the system with batteries will add is about 150 kg or 330lbs, very acceptable even for a small car. Your costs will be

$1,000 for the car, $3,600 for the system. You get a road capable hybrid for

Total: $4,600 (road capable hybrid with a pure electric range of 12 miles). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills while keeping long range. (Sell your present car and you get a negative cost for the change).

If you are still not satisfied with electric performance and range, then you can take all the old irons out of the car: engine, gearbox, differential, transmission, exhaust, gas tank, etc. Then you can install the system for $3,600. If you'd like to get more range, then you can install 8 telecom batteries instead of just 4, remember the engine and gearbox are out now. Then an electric vacuum pump for the brakes for about $200. So the only added costs would be the vacuum pump ($200) and the 4 added used telecom batteries for $100.

That is: $1,000 (car) + $3,600 (14kW system with 4 recycled telecom batteries) + $200 (vacuum pump) + $100 (other 4 recycled telecom batteries).

Total: $4,900 for a road capable pure electric with about 24 miles range (12 miles for each 4 telecom battery pack). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills. Keep your present car to recreate the long luxury journeys of car pioneers and as a vintage legacy for future generations...Sentimentalism is not for free and this change will have a positive yet moderate cost

Frankly, I don't think anyone can find a more competitive alternative.