[Carbonfree]

Originally Posted by valerun

The problem with all the conversion shops is that they are taking any random job that is thrown their way. As a result, they don't have a chance to reach any kind of scale and fail due to underestimation of effort required for custom conversions.

The shops that would do this are typically mechanics/repair shops. Or perhaps autobody shops would also have the skills and tools to do it. The issue I see is that the nature of this business is "small". Nobody will be able to scale up to make this a profitable business. By it's nature, it will always be small because it requires the customer to bring the used vehicle to the company that does the kit conversion

I don't see an assembly line happening where scale could be applied to EV kit conversions. It requires that the customer purchase the used vehicle, then bring it to the shop that will do the conversion. So I doubt anyone will dedicate a business to it. It would be a side business even for the auto repair shop.

Maybe it doesn't make sense to me because I am not the type of customer that is the target market. I am the type that is more likely to buy a real EV from a major manufacturer now that they are here. I would rather have the warranty and the support. There is also likely to be an aftermarket to sell the used vehicle.

It just doesn't make financial sense to do the kit with a used vehicle. You are likely spending just as much or more, have a lesser vehcile in terms of safety and range, and you won't have much resale once you are done.

These are just my concerns and why I won't be considering a DIY now that there are production EV options available.

[gojo]

The economy may play a big factor. Many want to deny this, but the basic fundamentals suggest we are presently moving in the direction of a 3rd world economy.
The average person may not be able to afford a new EV, but as gas prices continue rise, they won’t be able to afford to drive an ICE , and the option of affordable conversion kits would be the answer.
Kits aimed at popular models that are easy to convert would be more affordable if they are produced in volume. Us electric car veterans would be very popular, and all the women would be throwing themselves at us in hopes of getting some help with their conversions.
The choice would not be between an ICE and an EV, but a choice between a conversion or walking.

[Carbonfree]

Originally Posted by gojo

The average person may not be able to afford a new EV, but as gas prices continue rise, they won’t be able to afford to drive an ICE , and the option of affordable conversion kits would be the answer. Kits aimed at popular models that are easy to convert would be more affordable if they are produced in volume.

I just don't see the volume happening. I think we are more likely to see used EVs (like the Nissan Leaf) in a few years being the way to go. A new battery pack and ready for another 100,000 miles.

The plug-in Prius that goes commercial next year will have a 13 miles one way EV range. Recharge at work, then drive home another 13 miles on EV. Most of your miles each day would be pure EV. Within a few years after that they will be available used in significant volume. Get an extended warranty and you are good to go.

I think I read that the average person drives less than 30 miles per day. With recharging in parking lots, a 13 mile range will likely be sufficient for huge numbers of people.

I plan on buying a scooter that gets 100 mpg if gas get really expensive. Those will meet the needs of most people, most of the time.

Electric bicycles can reach speeds of 30+ mph and have ranges of 20+ miles. The cost is very affordable for just about anyone.
Detach your battery and recharge it inside on a normal 110v outlet while you work.

Originally Posted by gojo

The choice would not be between an ICE and an EV, but a choice between a conversion or walking.

I don't really see that as being a choice people have to make anytime soon. There are numerous ways to reduce gasoline consumption with no loss in quality of life. Carpooling, buying a used car that gets high MPG, get a ICE scooter, ride a bike, or an electric bike and many more.

A conversion is just not even comparable in terms of reliability. There are so many rough conversions that I just don't see it ever getting away from the hobbyist market. There are too many other easier options out there. I realize this is the wrong website to make this debate point. But when I test drove the Leaf, I realized that the DIY EV conversions were not going to be remotely comparable. And DIY conversions are not cheap, they cost a huge amount with very little resale value. Volume is not going to change that.

[Davetheliftie]

Originally Posted by steven4601

Maybe, maybe not.

I was feeling a bit uneasy when I found out how afforable to Leaf is. 22-25k USD is a very good price.

Sadly where I live , citizens wallets get screwed so hard, the price for the Nissan Leaf in US dollars is doubled!
The 32000 Euro is what the vehicle is sold for here. That is 45k USD? Due to import / tax duties.

Get one Nissan for the price of two.

Much the same pricing structure in Australia

[bruceme]

Originally Posted by hardym

The Leaf is a complete EV game changer..

I completely agree, the next car I get will be a used EV Leaf or Volt in 5 years. And I probably won't go back to DIY except to tinker/experiment on my own.

[Ravishankar]

DIY is required where there are no good EV's offered on the market, like here..!

[Robert Electricman]

Originally Posted by Carbonfree

I don't see an assembly line happening where scale could be applied to EV kit conversions.

Coming from the Experimental Aircraft Market - and watching the EAA Movement in that field and certain designers and their competitors - the Experimental Aircraft Business today would not be much different if it were not for one man - one business - the Christian Eagle Airshow Biplane Kit!

Each kit came with parts blister packed stacked in a box with separators like a wine case of a sorts, and the manual for that set of parts build, and the whole thing - with a razor blade masking taped to the package inside - to cut out the parts! that raised the character of the business of the day from partially bent metal and a few off the shelf parts, to completed, packaged kits!

In the EV Conversion game - the big difficulty is the 'Jack of All Trades' style of shop, instead of picking 1, 2, or at most 3 vehicles and working them alone, so that - in shorter time - you can get a systematized approach to what is required, what is next, and what is needed, and start to Prefabricate specific components like Motor Mount Brackets - ahead of the next conversion job!

I had a couple friends over helping me this past Sunday - and the discussion lead to - is there a business in Conversions! My thoughts are - there is a business in systematizing Conversions!

We already have some vendors selling motors, and some big on adapter plates for mating to transmissions. So what if a small shop said - OK - New Motor + New Adapter Plate + New Transmission = Quicker RE & RE of this aspect? Would that not mean The Converter needs not to worry about mating the Clutch, balancing the Flywheel, and all the interesting and tricky stuff, because it was already in a package?!

Next - Whether using Prismatic or Cylindrical LiFePO4 Cells, start a separate business that is building Battery Packs for Specified Car Gas Tank Replacements - so you take out the old gas tank - remove the carpet and ad a few reinforcing plates and pickup points, and then hang the new battery pack! No Chopping and hacking up of the already designed body, just a few hard points and pickups added!

So if you could buy a ready to install battery pack as a package, Wiring Harness, Motor-Transmission package, and the respective controller, Throttle set, the conversion time could come down from a week or two, to a day or two, and after a while down to under 12 hours!

In the Kit Plane Business - we don't go out and design a new aircraft radio for each kit built - or a new Nav radio, we just buy and install! In the EV conversion business - there is very little support for such a pathway, so we still have people designing instruments by hand - one off, etc.!

Let's suggest - the whole conversion industry - each and every vendor - formed a team - and said - OK - for 2012 - we will each and every one of us work on perfecting converting a 'XXSX' (? Ford Ranger, Chevy S10, or what ever) and share skills, learning, and techniques, essentially forming a nation wide 'cottage industry' no so unlike what was done in Britain to deal with aircraft factories getting bombed out! In one year - we could have incredible progress on a single or select few models, so by 2013 - a couple new choices could be added, and in 5 years we could have experts on 10 - 15 models! All across the country!

Side Businesses of new components like custom fit, Reverse Engineered (Professionally so) CAD Designed components for precise fits with paper thin tolerances, would be able to operate better with this model, rather than trying to dance the Tango one time, the Waltz the next, and the shuffle next, as is going on today!

I took Ballroom dancing lessons 3 different times, and on the first two they tried to teach a little bit of everything - what a mess! on the third try - I had single partner - and in two - 2 hour sessions - we had a Dance routine down in one style of dance and could have nailed a competition quite well! In just 4 hours of training!! Same with EV Conversions - Pick one - get good at it first, then add another!!

OK - that's a long story - but bottom line: Focus = Progress!

Want to see some EV Conversions Versus New OEM's almost side by side? Come this weekend to EV Fest 2011 in Toronto, Ontario, at the Brick Works at 550 Bayview Avenue on Sunday, October 23rd! Just $5! From 10 AM - 5 PM

[Robert Electricman]

And - my own thoughts for myself - based on my 'Electricfly' - is to work on Battery Packs that fit My gas tank space - step by step - using better batteries, until the pack can be built for a variety of performances but all fit the same space, volume and package!

If I can do that for my car - then I can do the same for another Firefly (Geo Metro/Suzuki Swift), and if I can get that figured out for a few Geo's then I can try the same idea for another car! EV Album Shows quite a few Geo candidates for testing my idea on! So - If I can make a battery pack case that could use small AGM, Prismatic LiFePO4, or Cylindrical LiFEPO4, or LiPo, and offer differing performances, but always mounted the same, connected the same, offered the same voltage (but different energy or power capabilities) it would help to systematize the battery pack for that one car!

[Robert Electricman]

Originally Posted by Carbonfree

I don't really see that as being a choice people have to make anytime soon. There are numerous ways to reduce gasoline consumption with no loss in quality of life. Carpooling, buying a used car that gets high MPG, get a ICE scooter, ride a bike, or an electric bike and many more.

I have seen Gas Powered Scooters, and I have Seen Electric Scooters - even high powered ones like the ZEV7100, but if the Electric Scooter is using a Hub Motor - why can't same hub motor be on the front - added to a Gas-powered Scooter - making it a choice between gas to go, or electricity to be clean!

[Nic]

Just because there is an affordable EV out there doesn't mean it will be the end of DIY EV. That would be like saying since an affordable muscle car can be bought from a dealer that there is no reason to build a classic muscle car. It's more than just dollars and function.

Oh, and yeah, the Leaf is an ugly car, as someone else mentioned.