[jk1981]

Originally Posted by toddshotrods

You might notice in the rendering that I didn't finish the CAD model. I just needed to develop the shape of the top and bottom plates to cut a pattern for them. The edges will be radiused to match the 2x3" tubing; making the frame rails sweep into the crossmember, like it was carved out of one piece of steel. That will all be good old fashioned hand fabrication.

That chassis is only 3" deep, I thought they must be 8" or so and slotted into your build table! With that big hole in the middle and a non-structural body how on earth are you going to make it structurally sound let alone stiff enough for racing?

And why solid mount the engine? It'll be horrid to drive, will shake itself to death and will crack its mounts (if you're lucky and it doesn't pull the mounting bosses out of the block/gearbox) sat atop the floppy chassis.

Don't get me wrong, it looks cool but it also looks frighteningly bendy. Have you run this past an engineer?
jk

[toddshotrods]

Originally Posted by madmike8

Great progress! Keep the updates coming....

Thanks Mike!

Originally Posted by jk1981

That chassis is only 3" deep, I thought they must be 8" or so and slotted into your build table! With that big hole in the middle and a non-structural body how on earth are you going to make it structurally sound let alone stiff enough for racing?...

You must have missed this pic and post? That's the responsibility of the roll cage. When it's finished, the case will run from front to back, tying the whole structure together, and adding the necessary rigidity. Standard race car practice, where the body is just to provide the image of a car - all the real structure is in the chassis.

Originally Posted by jk1981

...And why solid mount the engine? It'll be horrid to drive, will shake itself to death...

Have you ever owned, driven, or even ridden in a solid-mounted race chassis before? I have. It's not that bad. Yes, the engine vibrations will be directly transmitted into the chassis - I want that, because I want it to feel like a real race car. It's all in what your preferences are, and I happen to think driving race cars is a hoot! They make me

Originally Posted by jk1981

...will crack its mounts (if you're lucky and it doesn't pull the mounting bosses out of the block/gearbox) sat atop the floppy chassis...

It won't. Mainly because the chassis won't be floppy, and secondly because I'm building it to be abused.

Originally Posted by jk1981

...Don't get me wrong, it looks cool but it also looks frighteningly bendy. Have you run this past an engineer?

No problem, I genuinely appreciate the concern. Your post didn't come across as negative - more frighteningly concerned! I've been doing this for a couple years, very successfully, and fortunately/unfortunately I am quite literally surrounded by engineers who have a tendency to question my every move - even when it's something they know I've been doing for three decades. I don't mind - I kind of enjoy sending them back to their training to figure out why it works when they were so sure it wouldn't. There's also an older master metalworking guy based out of the complex, who can't keep his nose out of what we do, and also questions things - until he sees the results. Then, he just mumbles on about how he wouldn't have done it that way...


Final points:
As radical as Schism looks, there's really nothing new going on under the sun with it. Almost everything being done is via tried and true race or hot rod building practices. I'm just making it look radical.

It's not really a race car. It's a street rod, that will have a ridiculous amount of power, and be thoroughly abused, but actual racing isn't really the goal - having fun is. It it were a true race car, we wouldn't be hammering all these parts out of steel (weight), and it probably wouldn't have an 11" motor just to provide a couple hundred ponies of boost at the front wheels. That big motor will make driving in all-electric mode more enjoyable, and possible at highway speeds too now, plus it looks badazz - so the weight penalty is well worth it! Front wheel and four wheel burnouts should also be pretty spectacular with the torque of an 11" motor added to the mix!

The Model E is our race car.

[jk1981]

No, I saw the cage pictures, I still don't see any real structure in the cage, plenty of metal but mostly in big open squares and with lots of bent tube. There is also sill that large open square in the floor?

You yourself in an earlier post suggested it is a race car as justification for solid mounting the engine when someone else picked up on it. As stiff as you can make and that is limited by the design it it'll still flex in use and bolted solid to that engine something has got to give.

And yes, I do have a car with nearly solid mounted 4cyl engine and a solid mounted diff. It's *really* harsh and draining to use in the real world on real roads.

Good on you for getting on and building, I'm not in any way trying to be negative about the project as a whole or discourage you but I'm struggling to see how you'll add the structural integrity this'll need to handle the powerplant you intend for it.

[toddshotrods]

Originally Posted by jk1981

No, I saw the cage pictures, I still don't see any real structure in the cage, plenty of metal but mostly in big open squares and with lots of bent tube. There is also sill that large open square in the floor?...

I guess only time will solve this mystery. The old cage is gone, and the new design lives only in my head right now. The only thing I can say is keep watching... (not trying to be a smart-azz - I just can't accurately describe it in text, over the internet)

Originally Posted by jk1981

...You yourself in an earlier post suggested it is a race car as justification for solid mounting the engine when someone else picked up on it. As stiff as you can make and that is limited by the design it it'll still flex in use and bolted solid to that engine something has got to give...

I did, and I have been trying to correct that perception with statements like "not really a real race car", but it's hard over the internet. It's being built like a race car, I want it to "feel" like a race car, and it will follow a lot of race car practice, so in essence it will be an artistic portrayal of a race car. The difference, that I am trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to convey with keywords and bold/underlined/italic text, is that it doesn't actually have to fulfill any of the obligations of a race car. It won't be seriously, competitively, used that way. Whatever it does or doesn't do well, I am willing to accept. It's a street rod, which (to me) means it's a functional art piece. It's number one job is to make me people smile. That takes precedence over everything else. Why all the power goals? Because it's fun and nothing brings up a smile like wretched excess in power.

Originally Posted by jk1981

...And yes, I do have a car with nearly solid mounted 4cyl engine and a solid mounted diff. It's *really* harsh and draining to use in the real world on real roads...

"Nearly" is usually a problem, depending on what you mean by that. Well-designed and implemented, full solid mounts actually prevent breaking mounts and use the engine to strengthen the chassis (it becomes a structural member). Combinations of different rigidity in the mounts can cause issues because there is some initial movement, that has to stopped by the other mounts, putting stress on them. People sometimes combine rubber and poly, or poly and solid - most parts and chassis manufacturers advise not to...

I happen to think riding in/on solid-mounted, stiffly sprung, race cars and motorcycles (and even hardtail bikes) is enjoyable - so it's all according to your personal preferences. Schism is also not being built for my daily commute - it's a toy that I take out and use like a guy would ride a hardtailed chopper.

Originally Posted by jk1981

...Good on you for getting on and building, I'm not in any way trying to be negative about the project as a whole or discourage you but I'm struggling to see how you'll add the structural integrity this'll need to handle the powerplant you intend for it.

Thanks. I didn't take any of it that way. Please stay tuned, and hopefully you'll see it as the build develops. Feel free to question & comment. I consider every question, comment, and concern, seriously - I have actually made a mistake or two, and overlooked a few things, in my life - if you can believe that!

[DavidDymaxion]

Love the pics and words, keep them coming! Here are a few thoughts:

• Have you considered doing hard urethane or even solid suspension mounts? I read about a Mustang with huge roller bearings for the suspension points, I always thought that would be a neat idea.
• I have a friend with a V8 car with solid motor mounts -- you'd never guess. Admittedly a V8 is smoother than a 4 cylinder! The solid mounts weigh much less and help keep the exhaust from hitting when torque tries to rotate the motor.
• I'm a bit worried about the electric motor mounts. I assume a chain will transmit the power. This will pull hard on one end of the motor relative to the other end. It seems like you need plates parallel to the end bells, or triangulated mounts.
• Thumbs up on the cage strengthening the car. Why not build the cage to NHRA specs? It doesn't seem like much more, if any, work and would be a nice byline if nothing else.
• It's great stuff, and I'm not claiming to be an expert. As usual I'll enjoy learning from your reply.

[toddshotrods]

Originally Posted by DavidDymaxion

Love the pics and words, keep them coming!...

Thanks David!

Originally Posted by DavidDymaxion

...Have you considered doing hard urethane or even solid suspension mounts? I read about a Mustang with huge roller bearings for the suspension points, I always thought that would be a neat idea...

Over half of the current suspension is solid, with rod ends in place of rubber or poly. There are four rubber bushings left in the control arms, and six factory balljoints, that will all be replaced with spherical balls before I start pushing on them; so it will be all solid, no give. I'm also using the cheapy rod ends to get it set up because there is so much grinding and crap going on - they'll all be replaced with precision rod ends later.

It might squeak a little, with all solid suspension, but old cars did squeak and rattle...

Originally Posted by DavidDymaxion

...I have a friend with a V8 car with solid motor mounts -- you'd never guess. Admittedly a V8 is smoother than a 4 cylinder! The solid mounts weigh much less and help keep the exhaust from hitting when torque tries to rotate the motor...

This particular engine has dual balance shafts and is surprisingly smooth. With the factory rubber mounts, and a good tune-up, it was barely perceptible from inside the car. My daily driver Saturn, with no balance shafts, on the other hand never lets you forget it's up there working! My engine guy really wants me to remove the balance shafts because they're worth 5hp, but I refuse. That's one of the areas where I compromise on the full race thing for something I think I will enjoy. If I lose a race because of that 5hp - so be it, I had fun trying.

I have a friend with a Pro Street car that is really a drag car with a production car body shell hanging on it, lights, and plates. It's all solid mounted, and the floors and firewalls are bolted (hundreds of little screws in place of the normal rivets), aluminum sheet - it's a thrill. Yes, everything is buzzing and vibrating and it adds exponentially to the sensation of speed and thrills.

Originally Posted by DavidDymaxion

...I'm a bit worried about the electric motor mounts. I assume a chain will transmit the power. This will pull hard on one end of the motor relative to the other end. It seems like you need plates parallel to the end bells, or triangulated mounts.

The chain will actually be turning a jackshaft running parallel to, and just in front of the motor. Chains will drive the axles from that. The motor sits right in front of the firewall, and pretty much hidden from view, the back of the mount will be anchored into the roll cage, through the firewall and inside the cowl. It will literally have to twist the entire roll cage structure to move at all on that mount, plus all the .250" steel plates that are supporting and clamping it.

If I manage to do that, while driving the front wheels, it will be the most fun mistake I have ever made in life. My guess is that with the torque of an 11" motor, the front tires don't stand a chance of providing that much resistance, and will merely be a brief supplement to help the rear tires recover and find a hint of traction.

I really don't take any of these concerns, comments, and suggestion lightly either - I go back over my entire design every time, and I just don't see it budging. I'm listening though...

Originally Posted by DavidDymaxion

...Thumbs up on the cage strengthening the car. Why not build the cage to NHRA specs? It doesn't seem like much more, if any, work and would be a nice byline if nothing else...

I tried. Every time I try to follow those rule books (NHRA and SCTA) it kills the project for me. It's not much more work, it's a serious compromise on the design issues. One of the points of this build was to get my personal desires out of the way, so the Inhaler Model E can be what it needs to be. With that project, I was having a serious conflict of interest between what I wanted to design and what they allow you to do. I decided to take "me" out of the equation with this project - a place where I can "play" uninhibited. When we get back to that car, I expect it will conform to the rules more. Here, I refuse. I will build something safe, but not by their standards of "safe".

My engine guy and I talk about this a lot. A guy/gal with a new supercar would get kicked off the track because they don't have a roll cage, or a this or that, but I'd put my money on those cars being just as safe at the speeds they are capable of as the old Camaro with the spec cage. The new car will likely look worse, after a crash, because the crumple zones will do their job, but the driver will feel just as good or better. Some sanctioning bodies are notoriously slow to upgrade their standards - I think NHRA still mandates carburetors in the Pro classes!

Originally Posted by DavidDymaxion

...It's great stuff, and I'm not claiming to be an expert. As usual I'll enjoy learning from your reply...

Thanks again! I appreciate all feedback, and I'll try to make this a fun journey.

[toddshotrods]

I've been trying to decide whether to try to find someone to cast the base for the intake plenum, or someone to machine it. Since it's a simple part, I decided to play with it in Pro/E today. After being "told", repeatedly, that what I wanted to do wasn't possible I am leaning towards casting. Here's the unfinished Pro/E model. If I continue to develop this model, I'll cut the ports, and then start adding more sculpture.


Next, I'll show why I prefer to work in Rhino so much, with a proper "Todd" version of this. Surface modeling rocks!

[toddshotrods]

The (Rhino) surface modeling version.

I can actually fix the dimples in the end surfaces in the model, but I am tempted to just leave them and fix them in the CNC cut plug - unless, I decide to machine it from billet aluminum, or print it for casting.

There's supposed to be a recess in the flange area where the carbon fiber bonds to the aluminum (yes, there will be a barrier to prevent galvanic reaction ) to create a locking dimple (like an o-ring) but that would be an undercut that CNC machining can't do without a bunch of extra setups. If I decide to 3D print this plug, I will add them. Other wise they'll be a separate process - maybe just two slots, milled manually, on the upper and lower horizontal surfaces.

Guess which one I'm going with (solid or surface model)? If it doesn't make any power (or kills some), at least it will look good not doing it!

[toddshotrods]

The shifter is coming along. The main plate is cut and smoothed out enough to start positioning the shifter. We cut the mounting tabs from .250" steel, mainly so that they won't look like sheet metal on the relatively massive I-beam mount. The top and bottom plates are almost ready, so we can roll those and start building the I-beam soon.




We also started carving out the rocker arms, again from .250" steel for the main sections. They'll get vertical ribs between the pivots. The larger one will have a spherical center bearing, so it can swing in all four directions with the shifter. The selector's rocker arm, just needs a plain bearing.




Every so often I add the newly modeled parts and new ideas to the composite mock-up, to see how it all works together - I like!

Case in point: I spent the morning today modeling a bright idea to put the throttle body in the center of the plenum, doing a mirror image of the back end to replace it, and increasing the size of the center. Then I hung the throttle body under the bottom, and angled back in towards the engine. It seemed like a great idea, and even looked good in CAD, but actually took something away from the whole, when I added it to this mock-up model. The whole theme with this car is to emphasize mechanical functions, and present them as art. Smoothing over, and hiding, them actually takes something away from the car. It either looks like something is missing, or is being purposely covered up - as if there is a problem with it.

An interesting detail in this rendering is an idea I would really like to do - the motor controller is in an oval glass clock dome (just in front of the motor, and behind the grille). If I use two small jackshafts, each being driven from it's respective side of the motor, I can keep the chains close to the frame rails, opening up the center for the controller. The dome is just because I am Todd. Of course, it might be a better idea to have it blown in polycarbonate than an actual glass dome, with four drive chains flanking it, and an open grille (rocks) in front of it. This would also likely mandate an open source controller because I doubt any of the manufacturers would want their internals hanging out in public view.

This whole idea led me to discover a little technical issue I didn't realize. Since switching to the 11" motor, with chain drive, I don't have a differential. I have to come up with some way to create one before the chains are hooked up. Ultimately, I would like to have a small 4.5" dry race clutch on each chain drive system, with electric actuators or stepper motors controlling the engagement/disengagement, and a small computer to create an electronic differential. I can incorporate the factory Honda wheel speed sensors on these drive hubs, so it's possible, someday...

The shift knobs on the dash are for the selecting the drive mode. (Electric motor) Forward, neutral, reverse on one lever; ICE, Electric, Combined, Launch, on the other one.

[toddshotrods]

This might sound funny, but this is the first time since starting this project that I can actually imagine myself driving it! I have been so absorbed with sifting through plans to find something I really like, and solving all the technical hurdles of each idea, that I had never really considered how I would actually feel driving Schism. I have taken it for mental test drives since before the first part was ordered, and the first post was made here, but my focus was always 100% on how all the parts and systems would work together, how it would handle in various conditions, and how it would relate aesthetically to its surroundings; never how I would feel driving it. Even when I made statements about the driving experience they were really more about the technical capabilities of the vehicle, than my feelings. Like, burying the throttle with both drives engaged, and cranking the (1.5 turns lock to lock) steering a half turn to the left - I know what that would result in, and it would be a spectacular event!

That shifter put me in the vehicle. Yesterday, after getting it positioned on the mount, I sat in the passenger side (fiberglass seat is still too flimsy and itchy to sit in) and reached out to it with my left hand - like I was across the pond with Woody. I wanted to make sure the height and location were okay - it fell right into my hand. That experience clicked the switch on! By the time I went to bed last night I was imagining myself snicking that shifter into 1st gear (with the right hand Woody ) and driving away. The actual vehicle had faded out of consciousness (for the first time), and the impression was 100% about how I felt - A-W-E-S-O-M-E!