[EVDL List]

I am putting together the EVS4Sale post right now. Interesting stuff.
And it is interesting the changes that have happened in the for-sale
market now that Production EVs are here to stay.

There are plenty of Volt pih, and Leaf EVs, but only a few
conversions now. Still lots of nEVs with very few miles on them (did
the original owner pay-way-too-much for an nEV and now feels saddled
with a vehicle that does not meet their driving needs because they
did not do their EV-homework first?).

There is a 108V converted Sta Wgn that only goes 60mph even with a
new pack. Since 55mph is OK for highway use, I will list it, but
really, you can not use the hov lanes unless you can go 80 mph to
keep from being either run over or run off the highway.

And there are nEVs that if you were willing to buy them and only go
25mph, they would still need doors for inclement weather, a 6.6kW
charger, and J1772 coupler ability.

So as a brain teaser, how much would one have to spend to upgrade:

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/2850425193.html
-the 108V Sta Wgn to 120V (the max for the curtis controller), a
6.6kW charger, and the parts for being able to connect to a J1772
coupler?

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/2861310924.html
-to a 6.6kW charger, the parts for being able to connect to a J1772
coupler, and adding doors?

Anyone interested in commenting, as there are likely some first time
buyers that have already thought about buying an EV on the cheap.


{brucedp.150m.com}

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Buying-an-EV-on-the-cheap-to-pour-into-a-J1772-ability-tp4521466p4521466.html
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[EVDL List]

I don't know that I would personally put a 6.6kW charger and J1772 ability
on the "Must" list to live with a conversion. For a work commuter with some
side trips, I'm doing fine with a 1.6kW to 2.2 kW charger and 110V and 220V
pigtails. When I'm charging up at work and home, I almost always have 8-9
hours to spare. There are a few times where it would be nice to
fast-charge, but I've only run into a few times a year, myself.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of brucedp5
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 5:12 AM
> To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
> Subject: [EVDL] Buying an EV on the cheap to pour $ into a J1772 ability
...
>
> I am putting together the EVS4Sale post right now. Interesting stuff.
> And it is interesting the changes that have happened in the for-sale
market
> now that Production EVs are here to stay.
>
> There are plenty of Volt pih, and Leaf EVs, but only a few conversions
now.
> Still lots of nEVs with very few miles on them (did the original owner
pay-
> way-too-much for an nEV and now feels saddled with a vehicle that does not
> meet their driving needs because they did not do their EV-homework
first?).
>
> There is a 108V converted Sta Wgn that only goes 60mph even with a new
> pack. Since 55mph is OK for highway use, I will list it, but really, you
can not
> use the hov lanes unless you can go 80 mph to keep from being either run
> over or run off the highway.
>
> And there are nEVs that if you were willing to buy them and only go 25mph,
> they would still need doors for inclement weather, a 6.6kW charger, and
> J1772 coupler ability.
>
> So as a brain teaser, how much would one have to spend to upgrade:
>
> http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/2850425193.html
> -the 108V Sta Wgn to 120V (the max for the curtis controller), a 6.6kW
> charger, and the parts for being able to connect to a J1772 coupler?
>
> http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/2861310924.html
> -to a 6.6kW charger, the parts for being able to connect to a J1772
coupler,
> and adding doors?
>
> Anyone interested in commenting, as there are likely some first time
buyers
> that have already thought about buying an EV on the cheap.
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-
> list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Buying-an-EV-on-the-cheap-to-pour-into-a-
> J1772-ability-tp4521466p4521466.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> |
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[EVDL List]

[quote] Mike Nickerson wrote:
> I don't know that I would personally put a 6.6kW charger and J1772 ability
> on the "Must" list to live with a conversion. For a work commuter with some
> side trips, I'm doing fine with a 1.6kW to 2.2 kW charger and 110V and 220V
> pigtails. When I'm charging up at work and home, I almost always have 8-9
> hours to spare. There are a few times where it would be nice to
> fast-charge, but I've only run into a few times a year, myself.

Same here. 1.5kw serves 95% of my charging needs. Bruce likes to beat
the drums for high rate charging. He may be coming from lead
experience where ranges are likely to be less than 50 miles. You and I
(and many lithium users) have ranges of 100-175 miles and find we need
charge only over night.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 11 days 12 hours 39 minutes

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[EVDL List]

[quote] Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
>
> I will admit I like the ability to draw as much or as little
> as I want. That is why I would likely get a pfc-40 onboard
> charger so I could dial-in what I wanted. Yes, it (or a similar
> charger with the same flexible capabilities) costs more, but it
> is worth it.

I can agree with you there. I have options for up to 3500 watts on
board with another 3000 watts at the home station. This, on
conversions, not the Leaf.
>
> For about a decade after I had received my Blazer from the
> converter, I was stuck with what the charger they installed would
> provide (similar to the way today's Leaf EV is limited to either
> a 3kW Level-2 or a Level-1 charge rate.

Do I understand that you are not currently driving an EV? And that
your most recent EV was a lead Blazer?

> To recap, I would save my pennies and get the onboard charger
> that can, either be as fast as the source, as slow as I want,
> or anything in-between, and not be limited to only one choice as
> you have surrendered to.

As noted, I have not "surrendered" to a single charging option. I just
find that 1500 watts meets my needs most of the time. That's on
conversions. With over 13k miles on the Leaf, I have never encountered
the need for more than 3kw. Indeed, I believe 120vac charging will
serve on the Leaf as well; we use 240vac just because it is more
convenient to hook up. We have our "timer" set to start charging the
Leaf at midnight; it stops at 80% around 3-4am. This is real world,
"wheels rolling over the ground", experience. Not the imagined needs
so throughly propagated through the media.

Yes, if/when we get 200+ mile ranges, we will need chargers that will
charge in 8-10 hours.

> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012, at 05:46 PM, Willie McKemie wrote:
> > Same here. 1.5kw serves 95% of my charging needs. Bruce likes to beat
> > the drums for high rate charging. He may be coming from lead
> > experience where ranges are likely to be less than 50 miles. You and I
> > (and many lithium users) have ranges of 100-175 miles and find we need
> > charge only over night.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 12 days 1 hours 52 minutes

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[EVDL List]

It also depends quite a bit on what is available in the area. Unlike the
Bay Area, the hinterlands of Idaho don't have many options for charging.
Right now, the options are really home and some employers that make 110V-20A
service available outside a building or in one part of a parking lot. Even
if I had higher-end charging, there isn't any place to use it. In many
parts of the country, this is still "state of the art"; unfortunately.

Mike

[quote]> Bruce wrote:
> If I limited my EV driving to very short runs I could either go to work
and
> charge, then charge at the College, and charge when I got home (repeat),
or
> on the weekends, I could do one hort exploratory run, and that was it.
>
> My desire to enjoy my EV was perhaps much more than yours, so later I had
> more charging ability installed in my EV. It was well worth it.
>
> Today's battery chemistries that are soon to be more affordable bring a
new
> epiphany: charging times have now increased while the onboard charger's
> abilities haven't. Tesla Roadster drivers know this all too well, as they
prefer a
> 204VAC 70A sources over a 3kW ones anytime. Essentially, if one had that
> large a pack, and used it's range abilities often, a 3kW Level-2 just
became
> the new Level-1 for them (just enough power to keep the pack trickle-
> charged and not turning into a brick).

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[EVDL List]

Bruce,

I am guessing that you have already tried, but just in case
if your old posts/chronicles were on public websites then
there is a good chance that they were captured by the WayBackMachine
www.archive.org which allows you to select a date in the past
when a specified website was crawled by the robots.
It usually does not give any linked files (data/pictures) but
the text is captured except when expressly forbidden by
anti-robot commands or impossible due to dynamic content generation

So you may give it a try to recover old postings....

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
Behalf Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:39 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying an EV on the cheap to pour $ into a J1772
ability ...

I hope you realize in your two last posts on this topic, your wording
could be construed as smug (well, his EV was an old lead-sled, not a
Leaf like ours, [so what does he know ...] ).

And now that I have mentioned that, I am sure as an EV-
Ambassador/driver, you never meant to leave anyone with that ... I'll
take from your posts, that overnight charging suits your driving needs,
and a reevaluation of that when pack capabilities x-fold increase.

Drivers need to be on their guard to keep from projecting smug.
For those that do not know what I mean, I reference to a Southpark
episode where Prius drivers let everyone know of their holier-than-thou
ride http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert!

...
Cor has already posted what I chronicled. Too bad those posts are no
longer archived (they're gone Jim).

For some that do not know who this old-fert (me) is or have done, having
press-credentials back in the 1990's allowed me to drive many more 100+
mile Electric drive-train vehicles than others likely ever will (...
careful, smug alert ...).

I was given the keys to a Nissan Altra EV for a couple of days
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1036152_nissan-altra-a-look-back-at-
the-worlds-first-li-ion-powered-ev
http://www.motortrend.com/auto_news/112_9712_the_nissan_altra_ev/
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=nissan%20%22altra%22%20ev

Similarly, to a ...

Honda EV-Plus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_EV_Plus
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=honda%20%22ev-plus%22

Toyota RAV4 EV (gen1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=toyota%20%22rav4-ev%22

And (OT to the evdl) hybrid and fcv prototypes before they went into
production, +more.

For a week I rented a GM EV1 gen2 that had a NiMH pack. That 100+ mile
range EV's capabilities (acceleration, efficiency, Level-2 charging rate
ability, +more) out performed a Leaf EV in so many ways, and that was
over a decade ago http://brucedp00.150m.com/carb0005/
(the technology was there, the Automaker will was not).

...
Where I am, EVs are in high demand to go to shows. As soon as I took
possession of my EV back 1992, I was on everybody's list, asking me to
come and attend their: health-faire, earthday, transportation-fair, ...
Organizations and companies around the state were having EVents that
wanted EVs.

That is still going on today. And if I have a desire to attend, I have
access to a 3kW-charging Leaf EV when I want.

Not too long ago, a new EVSE was being christened in Monterey, and the
organization that had made the effort to accomplish this, AMBAG, was
asking for EV drivers who could demonstrate charging off a J1772 EVSE to
come attend.

That is about a 100 mile trip there and 10 hours of charging with
today's 3kW-charging Leaf EV to get back home. Or a ~3 hour charge with
an EV with a 6.6kW Level-2 charging ability (the new/gen2 Leaf, Focus,
Coda, +more).

In an offline discussion with Willie, he let me know his business is
located just south of Austin, TX. I suppose an equivalent request would
be like a grand opening of an EVSE in Brady, TX asking Willie to drop
what he is doing an attend.

If it were me, I would look forward to attending. Clearly, my needs to
be able to charge using all available power the public EVSE can provide
is of interest to me.

And at the time I was doing all those requests, my day job left me
little time to do them in, with a locked-in-stone requirement that I be
back online ready for work at the specified day/time (no wiggle-room
there. !When Bank of America, Pacific Bell, Intel, (+other huge
companies) place a call, you should be already on your way to getting
them back up!).

To be able to get away, have some fun, and know I would get back to
continue with my work-obligations was my EV driving needs. Yet, most of
the time, I would charge my EV at home at Level-1.

When people talk about my charging, please try to word it to include the
range of from fast down to slow.


{brucedp.150m.com}


-
[quote] Willie McKemie wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 08:52:28PM -0700, Bruce EVangel Parmenter
wrote:
...
> > For about a decade after I had received my Blazer from the
> > converter, I was stuck with what the charger they installed would
> > provide (similar to the way today's Leaf EV is limited to either
> > a 3kW Level-2 or a Level-1 charge rate.
>
> Do I understand that you are not currently driving an EV? And that
> your most recent EV was a lead Blazer?
...
> -

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

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[EVDL List]

[quote] Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> I hope you realize in your two last posts on this topic, your
> wording could be construed as smug (well, his EV was an old
> lead-sled, not a Leaf like ours, [so what does he know ...] ).

I apologize for the appearance of "smugness".

I am in awe of your use of language. Moderator material, if I've ever
seen it! If only I could be so persuasive!

I do wish to present myself as someone who has logged as many EV miles
in the past year or two as about anyone else. Certainly, I'm still a
newbie. Especially compared to you. But, I'm using EVs every day and
piling on the miles.

I have noted that you seem to place a great emphasis on charging rate.
I think that is misplaced emphasis. You have a position of authority
and you seem to be using it to tell prospective EV drivers that they
can, with a high rate charger, regularly drive farther than their
range in a day. I think an EV owner is likely to be
disappointed/dissatisfied when he is forced to wait for a charge in
order to complete a daily route whether that wait is x hours or 2x
hours. That is, I think anyone that intends to put on more miles per
day than his range is likely to be an un-happy EV owner. Therefore,
I fear you are misleading prospective EV owners.

Were I offered the choice of a double rate charger or 20% greater
range, I would choose the range. I would consider it a "no brainer"
selection.

I think I'm representative of "daily EV drivers" when I say that high
rate chargers are not the major issue as you present.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 12 days 12 hours 01 minutes

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[EVDL List]

[quote] Willie McKemie wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 12:08:43PM -0700, Bruce EVangel Parmenter
> wrote:
>
> I have noted that you seem to place a great emphasis on charging rate.
> I think that is misplaced emphasis. You have a position of authority
> and you seem to be using it to tell prospective EV drivers that they
> can, with a high rate charger, regularly drive farther than their
> range in a day. I think an EV owner is likely to be
> disappointed/dissatisfied when he is forced to wait for a charge in
> order to complete a daily route whether that wait is x hours or 2x
> hours. That is, I think anyone that intends to put on more miles per
> day than his range is likely to be an un-happy EV owner. Therefore,
> I fear you are misleading prospective EV owners.

I have to agree with this. If you need a car with greater range than
any currently available EV, don't get an EV. Use the correct tool for
the job. You don't insert screws with a hammer. You don't pound
nails with a screwdriver.

>
> Were I offered the choice of a double rate charger or 20% greater
> range, I would choose the range. I would consider it a "no brainer"
> selection.
>
> I think I'm representative of "daily EV drivers" when I say that high
> rate chargers are not the major issue as you present.


I put myself in that class too (~1K miles per month in my Leaf). The
two most frequent questions I get about my Leaf are "how far does it
go," and "how long does it take to charge?" I say I'm planning on
driving it about 100000 miles and that I don't know how long it takes
to charge. I plug it in when I get home and it is full when I unplug
it the next morning (I do the same with my cell phone). Saying the
electricity cost is about a penny and a half a mile impresses people
as well (my overnight rate is about $0.05/KWHr).

Ed

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[EVDL List]

Some RAV4-EV drivers may be wanting to jump to the next generation
EV technology, so RAV4-EV sellers might be dropping their prices
to sell them faster.

One experience I think I should share, was at the Mt. View, CA Costco
before their store Mgr paid to have the perfectly good tal 2000 spi
and Avcon yanked and disposed of (Costco would not work with anyone
allowing reuse of their old 6.6kW Level-2 EVSE - sad). Well, lets
not waste anymore evdl bandwidth on how great and accommodating
Costco were, and what their management is now.

The local RAV4-EV driver I met up with mentioned that he wanted to
bag another spi because they were becoming scarce/hard to get. I
tried to help, but all I found were lpi EVSE. I wonder if that is
a factor to be concerned about.

>From what little I know, I do not believe anyone has successfully
installed an off the shelf 6.6kW onboard Level-2 charger to replace
the inductive one GM forced on them. I did hear of some backdoor
method of feeding power via the regen circuitry, but that was
supposedly tricky and if not done right could cause damage.

I hope someone on the RAV4-EV discussion list comes up with a
straight forward solution to keep those EVs on the road.


{brucedp.150m.com}


-
[quote] Rick Beebe wrote:
...
> One thing I've noticed is that RAV-4 EVs seem to have plummeted. I've
> long thought about buying one but they were routinely selling on eBay
> for over $30k which is too rich for my blood. Last week 2 sold for under
> $24k.
-

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

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[EVDL List]

As a designer and builder of electric scooters and motorcycles mostly with
120vAC charging systems, unless I'm missing something, it seems the J1772
system is completely useless to me. I mean, without a neutral terminal (as
far as I can tell) in the system, I can't safely access 120vAC. Am I right?
Also, common battery heaters, fans, auxiliary battery chargers, and other
components(in the US) use 120v. To require dual voltages of these components
or a step down system is just not workable.

The size of the smaller EVs allows them easy access to the huge number of
120v outlets for regular and opportunistic charging. But, it would be great
to also use something like the J1772 system. Does anyone else see this as a
problem?

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Buying-an-EV-on-the-cheap-to-pour-into-a-J1772-ability-tp4521466p4536717.html
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