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  #11  
Old 04-23-2012, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

[quote]Thos True wrote:
> I would recommend that you look at using a AC motor and lithium, as these
> have become user friendly, and lithiums will help reduce the weight
> restrictions of your project.

There's an old joke that goes like this:

The engineer's phone rings. "Hello, boss. You have a new project? It has
to be done when? Its performance has to be what? And it has to cost less
than how much? Pick two, and call me back!" And he hangs up.

That's the situation here. She wants a 60 mile range, and it has to cost
under $6000, and though not mentioned, she probably wants it done in a
year or less. That's a very difficult problem. Pick two. :-)

If cost isn't critical, then as Thos said, buy an AC motor and
controller, and lithium batteries. It will probably cost 2 or 3 times
your budget.

If range isn't critical, then you can go with inexpensive lead-acid
batteries. You'll probably have half the range; but maybe you can charge
at work. You can use a DC drive to save money, too.

If time isn't critical, you can blow your whole budget on lithium
batteries, and then scrounge for the rest or build it yourself from
scratch. But it could take years to find "great deals" on an old
forklift motor, or to get your homemade charger and controller working.

There may also be other approaches. For example, buy a used EV and strip
it for parts. You'll wind up getting the parts for half of what they
would have cost new. Assume the batteries are bad; they always are, no
matter what the seller claims. :-( Buy an inexpensive "learner" pack,
which won't have the range but will let you sort out the system.
Meanwhile, hope that battery prices come down, or look for a deal on
some good used ones.

Good luck! It sounds like a great project. When I first heard of it, I
had just seen the www.girlgeniusonline.com cartoon for April 18, 2012.
It captures the spirit of the project exactly! PS: She named her
vehicle/contraption "Soarece" which is Romanian for "mouse". :-)
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do these great deeds, worth repeating.
-- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net

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  #12  
Old 04-24-2012, 12:06 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

Wow... I would have never expected so much input in less
than 12 hours! Thanks to all of you for
your input. I'm going to toss out a
little more info about my situation to see if I can muddy the waters even m=
ore.

First off, my budget is based on the expectation that I can
save $200 a month in gas if I switch to an EV. If I shoot for a 3 year R=
OI then I can potentially invest $7200 in the
conversion. I picked $6000 leaving the
remaining $1200 for any probable cost over-runs. Having worked on a numb=
er of other crazy
projects in the past, this $1200 is more than likely woefully inadequate.=
So what? I'll look sexy driving my snazzy MG while wearing my rose c=
olored
glasses!

Next, I realize that range is as much a factor of driving
style as it is of batteries. I am not a
delicate driver. I'm a friggin
leadfoot! I love screaming around our
twisty, turny, hilly back country roads in my little Midget. It's a real=
ly fun drive! So, if I were rich I'd be spinning this as a
high performance project with a crazy ton of torque under the hood. It's=
going to be a big change for me to
switch my driving style and I hope I can pull it off.

MG's have no heat to speak of. I was planning on dressing warm and heati=
ng
up a couple of hot water bottles before I took off during winter drives.=
Again, I hope this isn't unrealistic as I'm really
a lover of warmth. It was a big cosmic
joke that I was born in Indiana. I just know that I was supposed to have=
been born
a Caribbean princess...

I'd love LiIon powering this thing, but are there any reasonably
priced sources for these? I was in China a few
years ago with my old profession and found sources for small lithium polymer
batteries. Has anyone found and tried Asian
alternatives? What about a whole slew of
salvaged marine batteries from one of the local bone yards? Would a puls=
e desulfator rejuvenate these
into usable condition? Would the weight
be too much for such a little car?

I know the feds are offering a $7500 credit for factory new
EV's. Are there any incentives for
conversions?

I probably cannot charge at work. As a result, I really need to get at l=
east 60
miles range and keep myself to an 8 hour charge cycle. I wouldn't have a=
problem running 220vac out
to garage if that helps, but I'd also like a 120vac option for when I'm
visiting family or friends.

Are there totaled hybrids out there that peeps can pick up
cheap and salvage the parts? Is this a
better/worse idea than forklifts? I've
not heard of salvaging forklifts previously so I can't really comment. W=
hat about industrial motors? Can someone salvage a big honkin' three pha=
se
from a piece of machinery and do anything with that?

Last, but not least, are there any rich 'ol engineering
geeks out there who would want to provide me with a big, fat grant to do th=
is
project right? Mr. Gates, are you
listening? Woz? Are you out there somewhere? *grins*

Hope this helps. Once
again, I now realize that I'm probably being unrealistic. Shame, that, b=
ecause I'm really sick and
tired of paying Shiek Abuexxon al BP such a big chunk of my paycheck. Yo=
u know, if we as a nation had spent 10% of
our warchest on research and development... Well, I guess I shouldn't go=
there. Suffice it to say I'm just pissed off and want to make a change.

Thanks again!
Jessica
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| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
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  #13  
Old 04-24-2012, 12:46 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

Hi Jessica,

Thanks for the additional information. =


There used to be a tax credit for a conversion of 10% of the cost. I think
that is still valid, but I'm not completely sure. I bought my EV already
converted so the original owner took the tax credit.

I'm running Thundersky LiFePO4 cells so I can give comments about that.
However, I haven't had to purchase any in a long time. My general
impression is that prices of bottom-end lithium (like Thundersky) haven't
come down much in price, but the prices of higher performance lithium (like
Headway or A123) do seem to be coming much closer to the prices of
Thundersky. That is actually a good thing because they offer better
performance.

A good rule of thumb when sizing your pack for lithium is to assume that 1
gallon of gasoline will be about the same as 8 kWh of storage with lithium.
So, if you were burning 2 1/2 gallons of gas per day, you need about 20+ kWh
of storage. I added the plus because you have to add extra for heat (if you
use it) and don't want to drain your batteries all the way every day. With
my 13 kWh, I get about 50 miles range in a Honda del Sol.

Another item I should point out: Many people come to the conclusion that
they are driving electric because they just think it's the right thing to
do, but it isn't completely paying off. That has been a somewhat frequent
subject of discussion here. It may break even, but probably won't pay off
big, unless you're good at scrounging.

My case in point:

I paid $12K for a Honda del Sol already converted with lithium. I think I
got a bargain because this was about $2K less than the cost of parts, and I
didn=92t have to do the work! However, I also paid $12K for a car that wou=
ld
have been worth $2K tops if it were still gas. I drive about 1K miles per
month, but my normal commuter was a Mazda 626 V6 that I've learned to drive
efficiently at 30-35 MPG. So, even with gas around $3.75, the Mazda only
costs me $117 per month in gas. That's about $1300 a year. =


If the del Sol lasts 10 years without a new battery pack, I will break even.
However, in the mean time, I'm driving electric, grinning every time I pass
a gas station, AND I get to drive a convertible! But, I'm probably not
saving money.

I certainly don't mean to discourage you, but wanted to make sure you
realize where this could go. Sometimes I wish I had converted my car
myself. I think it would be a lot of fun. However, I've done enough work
on my car to feel like I did everything but the motor adapter. (See my
previous post!)

My dream would be to stuff a Warp 11 HV with high performance lithium cells
into a Mazda RX-8. That definitely wouldn't pay off. But it would be fun!

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx.edu] On
> Behalf Of Jessica Bussert
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:56 PM
> To: xxx@xxx.xxx.edu
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget
> =

> =

> Wow... I would have never expected so much input in less than 12
> hours! Thanks to all of you for your input. I'm going to toss out a
little more
> info about my situation to see if I can muddy the waters even more.
> =

> First off, my budget is based on the expectation that I can save $200 a
month
> in gas if I switch to an EV. If I shoot for a 3 year ROI then I can
potentially
> invest $7200 in the conversion. I picked $6000 leaving the remaining
$1200
> for any probable cost over-runs. Having worked on a number of other cr=
azy
> projects in the past, this $1200 is more than likely woefully inadequate.=

So
> what? I'll look sexy driving my snazzy MG while wearing my rose colored
> glasses!
> =

> Next, I realize that range is as much a factor of driving style as it is
of
> batteries. I am not a delicate driver. I'm a friggin leadfoot! I=
love
screaming
> around our twisty, turny, hilly back country roads in my little Midget.=

It's a
> really fun drive! So, if I were rich I'd be spinning this as a high
performance
> project with a crazy ton of torque under the hood. It's going to be a =
big
> change for me to switch my driving style and I hope I can pull it off.
> =

> MG's have no heat to speak of. I was planning on dressing warm and
heating
> up a couple of hot water bottles before I took off during winter
> drives. Again, I hope this isn't unrealistic as I'm really a lover of
warmth. It
> was a big cosmic joke that I was born in Indiana. I just know that I w=
as
> supposed to have been born a Caribbean princess...
> =

> I'd love LiIon powering this thing, but are there any reasonably priced
sources
> for these? I was in China a few years ago with my old profession and
found
> sources for small lithium polymer batteries. Has anyone found and tried
> Asian alternatives? What about a whole slew of salvaged marine batteri=
es
> from one of the local bone yards? Would a pulse desulfator rejuvenate
> these into usable condition? Would the weight be too much for such a
little
> car?
> =

> I know the feds are offering a $7500 credit for factory new EV's. Are
there
> any incentives for conversions?
> =

> I probably cannot charge at work. As a result, I really need to get at
least 60
> miles range and keep myself to an 8 hour charge cycle. I wouldn't have=
a
> problem running 220vac out to garage if that helps, but I'd also like a
120vac
> option for when I'm visiting family or friends.
> =

> Are there totaled hybrids out there that peeps can pick up cheap and
salvage
> the parts? Is this a better/worse idea than forklifts? I've not hea=
rd of
> salvaging forklifts previously so I can't really comment. What about
industrial
> motors? Can someone salvage a big honkin' three phase from a piece of
> machinery and do anything with that?
> =

> Last, but not least, are there any rich 'ol engineering geeks out there
who
> would want to provide me with a big, fat grant to do this project right?=

Mr.
> Gates, are you listening? Woz? Are you out there somewhere? *gri=
ns*
> =

> Hope this helps. Once
> again, I now realize that I'm probably being unrealistic. Shame, that,
because
> I'm really sick and tired of paying Shiek Abuexxon al BP such a big chunk
of
> my paycheck. You know, if we as a nation had spent 10% of our warchest=
on
> research and development... Well, I guess I shouldn't go there. Suf=
fice
it to
> say I'm just pissed off and want to make a change.
> =

> Thanks again!
> Jessica
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ttachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
> | Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
> |
> | REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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| Moratorium on drag racing discussion is in effect.
| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
|
| REPLYING: address your message to xxx@xxx.xxx.edu only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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  #14  
Old 04-24-2012, 12:46 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
EVDL List Bot
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 70
EVDL List is on a distinguished road
Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

If you are really really handy and a really good electrical engineer and re=
ally persistent... You might be able to scavenge the assist systems from 4 =
to 8 Honda Insights, and use that. I'd imagine you'd be the first ever to t=
ry this! I'd humbly suggest you try to get one system working independently=
of the Honda it came from before buying more. I would consider this a high=
risk approach.


I drove my car with just a big switch instead of a controller for a while. =
Since I have a sepex motor it won't overspeed but spins at a constant rpm. =
I had to shift to change speeds. It was cheap, and fun that it was somethin=
g that could have been done when my 35 year old car was new, but not freewa=
y capable. It had awesome regen. You'd again be on your own with this appro=
ach as very few people do sepex cars.

I think the best bet would be to try to scrounge cheap used parts for every=
thing but batteries. Once the car is built then splurge on Lithium batterie=
s (your only hope for that range in such a small car).

You can do RC battery chargers for about $10 a battery. If you are really a=
dventurous you could do a "bad boy" charger, but there is a good chance you=
'd ruin your expensive batteries.

So that was a meandering way to say cheap can be done, but it would take co=
nsiderable skill to do it and the risk of ruining your batteries would be h=
igh.

BTW I converted my Porsche 911 for less than your budget ( http://Exploding=
Dinosaurs.com), but it would go only cruise about 40 mph (well I did hit 59=
mph once on level ground, but it wouldn't cruise at that speed) and go onl=
y about 10 miles. I'm now doing version 2.0 that I think will go about 50 m=
iles and exceed 100 mph, but that cost is about double your budget. =




________________________________
From: Jessica Bussert <xxx@xxx.xxx>
To: "xxx@xxx.xxx.edu" <xxx@xxx.xxx.edu> =

Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

[top]


Wow... I would have never expected so much input in less
than 12 hours! Thanks to all of you for
your input. I'm going to toss out a
little more info about my situation to see if I can muddy the waters even m


ore.

First off, my budget is based on the expectation that I can
save $200 a month in gas if I switch to an EV. If I shoot for a 3 year R=
OI then I can potentially invest $7200 in the
conversion. I picked $6000 leaving the
remaining $1200 for any probable cost over-runs. Having worked on a numb=
er of other crazy
projects in the past, this $1200 is more than likely woefully inadequate.=
So what? I'll look sexy driving my snazzy MG while wearing my rose c=
olored
glasses!

Next, I realize that range is as much a factor of driving
style as it is of batteries. I am not a
delicate driver. I'm a friggin
leadfoot! I love screaming around our
twisty, turny, hilly back country roads in my little Midget. It's a real=
ly fun drive! So, if I were rich I'd be spinning this as a
high performance project with a crazy ton of torque under the hood. It's=
going to be a big change for me to
switch my driving style and I hope I can pull it off.

MG's have no heat to speak of. I was planning on dressing warm and heati=
ng
up a couple of hot water bottles before I took off during winter drives.=
Again, I hope this isn't unrealistic as I'm really
a lover of warmth. It was a big cosmic
joke that I was born in Indiana. I just know that I was supposed to have=
been born
a Caribbean princess...

I'd love LiIon powering this thing, but are there any reasonably
priced sources for these? I was in China a few
years ago with my old profession and found sources for small lithium polymer
batteries. Has anyone found and tried Asian
alternatives? What about a whole slew of
salvaged marine batteries from one of the local bone yards? Would a puls=
e desulfator rejuvenate these
into usable condition? Would the weight
be too much for such a little car?

I know the feds are offering a $7500 credit for factory new
EV's. Are there any incentives for
conversions?

I probably cannot charge at work. As a result, I really need to get at l=
east 60
miles range and keep myself to an 8 hour charge cycle. I wouldn't have a=
problem running 220vac out
to garage if that helps, but I'd also like a 120vac option for when I'm
visiting family or friends.

Are there totaled hybrids out there that peeps can pick up
cheap and salvage the parts? Is this a
better/worse idea than forklifts? I've
not heard of salvaging forklifts previously so I can't really comment. W=
hat about industrial motors? Can someone salvage a big honkin' three pha=
se
from a piece of machinery and do anything with that?

Last, but not least, are there any rich 'ol engineering
geeks out there who would want to provide me with a big, fat grant to do th=
is
project right? Mr. Gates, are you
listening? Woz? Are you out there somewhere? *grins*

Hope this helps. Once
again, I now realize that I'm probably being unrealistic. Shame, that, b=
ecause I'm really sick and
tired of paying Shiek Abuexxon al BP such a big chunk of my paycheck. Yo=
u know, if we as a nation had spent 10% of
our warchest on research and development... Well, I guess I shouldn't go=
there. Suffice it to say I'm just pissed off and want to make a change.

Thanks again!
Jessica
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  #15  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:15 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

[quote]Lee Hart wrote:
> If a car has power brakes, I don't think you can use regen
> to convert it to manual. Regen can't work if the pack is
> already full,

Correct - I had that problem in my *heavy* S10 truck that
for the first few miles the controller disabled regen and
(since it was configurable) I tried to enable it but found
out that was not a good idea - pack voltage shot up from
nominal 312V to the 420V emergency disconnect of my
controller to protect the DC/DC converter input (the
controller itself could take up to 700V).

> and rarely can provide much braking force when it is working.

Not true - but this depends on your controller and pack.
I have had axle-crunching stops where I was afraid that I
was going to lose the drive shaft when the motor and
controller were deliving up to 250A 400V (100kW) back
into the pack. That slows you down in a hurry!

> A car with power brakes without the power booster working
> is likely to require *substantial* brake pedal force to
> stop, regen or no.

Correct - I had trouble with my vacuum booster pump and also
the drain on my battery (after losing the DC/DC) was too
large for my liking, so I drove around without assist,
knowing full well that I might have to jump on the brake.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: xxx@xxx.xxx Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203

_______________________________________________
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| Please take those discussions elsewhere. Thanks.
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  #16  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:45 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

[quote]On 23 Apr 2012 at 23:27, Lee Hart wrote:

> Why do you [think] battery cost will be affected by whether it is AC
> or DC? For a particular range, she just needs a particular amount of
> battery KWH.

She lives in a hilly area, where regen is most effective. Perhaps I'm being
naive, but it seems to me that if she can count on 10-20% more range from
having regen, she can probably spend 10-20% less on the battery.

> The Midget is a small light car; so with care it should be able to get 250wh/mile.

FWIW, the early Solectria Force was around 2100lb converted. The drive had
regen and Worden had tuned the conversion quite well for efficiency, even to
the extent of replacing the stock Metro transaxle with a lighter, more
efficient one. When carefully driven, Forces could attain 160 wh/mile in
mixed urban driving.

Karmann Ghia conversions are also noted for unusually low energy use. I
wonder how efficient a Midget might be.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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  #17  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:45 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

If you value reliability and your own time, you will likely find that a
Leaf (or other similar factory EV) is FAR cheaper than a conversion.

You should place a (negative) value on strandings (being left in
mid-trip with a dead car) and then realize that a fresh conversion will
likely present you with MANY such experiences. Is avoiding a stranding
worth $100 to you? Or $1000?

In the DC/AC debate, I haven't seen reliability mentioned. Are AC
systems more reliable than DC? My experience has been that DC
controllers are horribly un-reliable.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 35 days 21 min minutes

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  #18  
Old 04-24-2012, 05:55 AM
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Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

> Suffice it to say I'm just pissed off and want to make a change.

There you go, that adds another $7200 on top of your ROI estimate ;<}.
Now you can get that AC50 and lithium pack. Do it once and do it right
- it's a big project. You can throw out that ROI anyway, a lot of this
is just about the project. It's worth paying more because you'll never
loose the things you'll learn and the people you'll meet.

We need leaders, early adopters, and EVangelists. You've raised your
hand - thanks! You'll have a great project, a fun car and an endless
supply of people to talk to everywhere you go with your car. You'll
sleep much better too - knowing you're not a part of the big problem we
have anymore.

One of our EAA chapter members just finished an immaculate restoration
of an MG Midget. He'll be ordering an AC50 and lithium pack soon.
Email me for his contact info if you'd like.

Gary Krysztopik
ZWheelz, LLC - www.ZWheelz.com
Alamo City Electric Auto Association - www.aceaa.org
blog - http://voices.mysanantonio.com/drive_electric_san_antonio/
San Antonio, TX



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  #19  
Old 04-24-2012, 06:15 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

It depends on the DC controller. After I replaced my second
Curtis controller with an Auburn Scientific C600 (company now
defunct, too long ago) I never had a DC controller failure. No
many how much I tortured it (and I purposely did). It was air
cooled and after climbing a 2000+ mountain it was hot as a
pistol. But it kept right on working.

...
On a different point:

I hope you consider having an onboard charger that can recharge
your pack either off 3kW Level-2 (faster), or 1.3kW Level-1
(slow). Since there are no public 6.6kW EVSE in your area, it
would not be cost effective to have a charger onboard with that
capability, and you would need to also spend the money to make
it have an J1772 port.

Since you will be working more than 8 hours, even a level-1 AC
source would easily give you back the 30+ miles of energy you
will expend on your commute.

If you were lucky enough to find an enlightened soul at your
company that wanted to install EV charging in a remote parking
spot that no ice will want to use, but did not want to spend the
high cost of a formal J1772 EVSE, the alternative is simple and
low cost.

Level-1 EV charging only needs a regular 5-20 outlet. A 3kW
Level-2 can be just as easy to put in without a formal EVSE
by installing a 6-20 receptacle. The same gauge wire is used
on it the same as a regular ol' 110VAC 20Amp outlet.

I found a combo receptacle that has both on it
http://www.plccenter.com/Shop/LEVITON/5031I/NSPP
could serve quite well. Your company's site facilities
electricians would have not problem installing it.

Having a spot that has an easy to install and use outlet
that provides both Level-1 and 2 EV charging would pay-off
in the future for when there is another EV driver at your work.

You could save the company the cost of painting the space, and
just install an EV-Only sign yourself (they are about $30)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00095NLBQ/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3
Mount it at about 5.5' level so it is in the ice driver face
that tries to park there.


{brucedp.150m.com}


-
[quote] Willie McKemie wrote:
> If you value reliability and your own time, you will likely find that a
> Leaf (or other similar factory EV) is FAR cheaper than a conversion.
>
> You should place a (negative) value on strandings (being left in
> mid-trip with a dead car) and then realize that a fresh conversion will
> likely present you with MANY such experiences. Is avoiding a stranding
> worth $100 to you? Or $1000?
>
> In the DC/AC debate, I haven't seen reliability mentioned. Are AC
> systems more reliable than DC? My experience has been that DC
> controllers are horribly un-reliable.
> -

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
or over the web

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  #20  
Old 04-24-2012, 08:05 AM
EVDL List EVDL List is offline
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Default Re: [EVDL] Seeking Conversion Mentor for '65 MG Midget

This is a challenge, for sure. My Z3 Roadster is not quite as small as an MG. I gave up nearly all of the trunk and got rid of the spare tire, too. Steve Clunn, who did the conversion, cut out the bottom of the trunk and welded in a lower battery box, so there are two rows of 100AH cells there. 48 in the rear and 32 up front.

The back sat low with the 300 new pounds and speed bumps were a problem at any speed. So I found coilsprings.com, since this car has custom-wound springs, and they created new, beefier ones that lifted it right back to the correct height.

Bruce


[quote] xxx@xxx.xxx.edu wrote:
> splurge on Lithium batteries (your only hope for that range in such a small car).

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