[MN Driver]

Only a couple states offer free HOV lane access for electric cars. In Minnesota there is no HOV sticker, you pay 25 or 50 cents(or more if that lane starts getting congested to a speed lower than 50mph) to access the lane if you aren't carpooling on the highways that charge the express lane toll for that lane if you aren't a carpooling vehicle, motorcycle, or bus. I've never been on those highways where it is busy enough to even think about buying the electronic unit though. IMHO, I've never really understood the point, it ends up becoming a political issue for people to attack hybrid and electric cars.

There are ROI points that don't include the batteries too though, the other components can be used in a different car. The battery could be too, if someone decided to swap cars, as long as everything is compatible.

I think its clear to go with lithium, it's about the only real way to get a higher performance system that is lightweight, much easier to fit with more cargo room, longer life, they don't need to be watered like a plant to prevent them from dying, you can go higher voltage without having the excess weight without the extra capacity like lead, peukert requires you to buy more capacity to cover for it, same with adding extra capacity(and weight) to cover the range you lose when the lead-acid pack starts to dig itself a hole, lower efficiency charging and discharging. These are a few of the extra costs that aren't as apparent when going with lead.

[meanderingthemaze]

Originally Posted by evnz

ROI mean what?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=roi

[MN Driver]

Originally Posted by evnz

ROI mean what?

Return on investment. This thread is discussing the cost difference, over time, of using lithium instead of lead. It doesn't make money so it's not technically an investment, but the gains that we can get in reduced operating costs by using an electric drivetrain go together with the costs of buying and using the battery packs, there are some value calculations to it and that is what we are discussing.

[Ziggythewiz]

65% is close, I was going with .6, but then you also times by 50% for DOD, so your actual multiplier is something like .25 - .35 Compare that to .7 for lithium and it does seem pretty clear.

GC8s from sams for around $100 are 135 AH (20 hr) so using .3 as a multiplier gives ~$310 / kWh. Obviously 6v batts are cheaper/kWh but there's no way I'm putting that much weight in my bug.

It's already 1:3, with 5x the life

[DIYguy]

Its really not about ROI in my little brain. One thing I agree with JR about is;
Lead = science project
Lithium = viable car.

Sorry to all u pb users. I started there also. No shame in that. Once u have done both, there just is no comparison to make. Forget the ROI. One choice "works".

Also, just for the record. . regarding complexity I assume u r talking floodies because AGM's actually require a BMS, where lithium doesn't necessarily need one depending on some choices and abilities.

All the best.

[CrunchTime]

Originally Posted by dladd

I do not think ROI is the most important aspect of the DIYer's decision making process.

I agree. My decision came down to this: according to my calculator, with Lead I could have a 40km, 1 passenger vehicle; with Lithium I will have a >100km, 3 passenger vehicle (in NZ we cannot go over the manufacturer's weight limit (GVWR), and have to allow 80kg for each passenger)

In fact the Li cost distracted me from the real point: without LiFePO4 I wasn't going to be happy with the car, so there would have been less than no point in doing the conversion.

Personally, the ROI is not a factor - the conversion is for "fun" and to be a bit different, not because it's green, or cheap, or cool. (Well maybe a bit because it's cool ) (It is cool, right?)

[Frank]

I didn't look at the numbers in your link but if they say a 6V 232AH PbA battery is $90 I suspect it's a little out-of-date. At least to get a quality battery. Last year around here, a single T125 was $175. Pallet pricing would be cheaper but not by that much.

A significant factor is weight and terrain: my pickup has a 120 volt system (i.e. 20 6V batteries) that weighs 1320# (batteries only.) An equivalent amount of useable energy would be contained in about 300# of lithium. A weight savings of 1000# is very significant! My truck goes well enough on the flat but is a pig when climbing hills. A real pig.

With lithium you're not relegated to pickup trucks. With PbA you need the load-carrying capacity and pickups were the traditional conversion candidate. Anything will work with lithium. Prismatic cells really are a game changer.

[rtcaldwell]

I can understand how ROI may not factor in to many different applications, but it does factor in for me. I am still in my infancy of building a conversion and will be using a 1962 Ford Fairlane (an old american classic) which could carry both Li or Pb.

ROI is a major factor for me and I appreciate
meanderingthemaze brining up this as a post. If good information gets generated, possibly even creating a sticky. I would love to see a sheet worked out that was 'fairly' accurate when it comes to ROI. Possibly where one could even put in current figures/cost in their area.

Question, how much does recycle/core charge fit into this ROI idea? after 2-3 years when you return your lead batteries, don't you usually get some money back? or is that only if you purchase MORE batteries?

From what I have discovered, I am most likely going to go with Lithium because I have a few extra $$$ I can spend in an upfront investment, but a calculator like something that is being suggested would help people make informed decisions if they decided that Return on Investment was important to them.

[evnz]

Originally Posted by CrunchTime

I agree. My decision came down to this: according to my calculator, with Lead I could have a 40km, 1 passenger vehicle; with Lithium I will have a >100km, 3 passenger vehicle (in NZ we cannot go over the manufacturer's weight limit (GVWR), and have to allow 80kg for each passenger)

In fact the Li cost distracted me from the real point: without LiFePO4 I wasn't going to be happy with the car, so there would have been less than no point in doing the conversion.

Personally, the ROI is not a factor - the conversion is for "fun" and to be a bit different, not because it's green, or cheap, or cool. (Well maybe a bit because it's cool ) (It is cool, right?)

The ROI is not a reason to build an ev, you and i need to change the way people think of ev's.
I am regularly asked why i am doing it i tell them if people put a V8 in a mini why not put a electric motor in a j1 bedford
I am doing it with lead for the first set then lithium after that.
I have a 15 km round trip to work and back

[Ziggythewiz]

Originally Posted by evnz

The ROI is not a reason to build an ev

Maybe not for you, it certainly is for me. It all depends on your alternatives. If you would otherwise spend $15K to purchase a vehicle, your conversion instantly pays for itself, along with saving $1-3K / year on gas.

If you don't get any additional utility from the car, I would expect the ROI to be around 8-10 years whether using lithium or lead. Maybe in a good economy that would be a bad investment, but right now can you tell me anything else (other than raw materials) that would have fared as well over the last 8 years?

More than anything though, I consider it a matter of national security and energy independence. We wouldn't have to keep 2 carrier groups in the middle east if oil weren't the lifeblood of our country.