[ruckus]

Originally Posted by somanywelps

The BLDCs don't have the performance and certainly don't have the price performance.

Also he linked to a BLDC, but there was some discussion about that motor/controller and not in a positive light.

Sorry, my post was confusing. I was trying to suggest he check out the Scott Drive system. It is the brushes that are the problem. They are failing left and right.

Where is there a discussion of the Scott system having problems? I would be interested in reading the issues.

I am confused that you say BLDC don't have performance because they nicely whip Brushed motors in power to weight ratio. Why do you think all the auto manufacturers use brushless motors? (both dc and ac, but ALWAYS brushless)

Show me a brushed motor and I will show you a brushless motor which weighs less and puts out more torque and more hp.

Powertec has some decent specs posted:
Their E215E2 motor weighs 211 pounds With the blower. Less than a Warp 11.
It produces 500ft lbs of torque from 0-2000+ rpm and has a max of 86hp CONTINUOUS at 3600rpm and 95hp at 5000rpm.

A Warp 11 is only rated at about 35hp continuous.

There is no comparison in terms of power and reliability. That is why industry has switched over.

[somanywelps]

Originally Posted by ruckus

Sorry, my post was confusing. I was trying to suggest he check out the Scott Drive system. It is the brushes that are the problem. They are failing left and right.

Where is there a discussion of the Scott system having problems? I would be interested in reading the issues.

I am confused that you say BLDC don't have performance because they nicely whip Brushed motors in power to weight ratio. Why do you think all the auto manufacturers use brushless motors? (both dc and ac, but ALWAYS brushless)

Show me a brushed motor and I will show you a brushless motor which weighs less and puts out more torque and more hp.

Powertec has some decent specs posted:
Their E215E2 motor weighs 211 pounds With the blower. Less than a Warp 11.
It produces 500ft lbs of torque from 0-2000+ rpm and has a max of 86hp CONTINUOUS at 3600rpm and 95hp at 5000rpm.

A Warp 11 is only rated at about 35hp continuous.

There is no comparison in terms of power and reliability. That is why industry has switched over.

1) COST

2) PEAK POWER (These are not race cars, they are street sport cars or dragsters)

3) COST per unit of performance.

(Also you can force air cool and do some other stuff. A Kostov 11" Alpha ($2700) is rated for 50kw continuous and puts out MONSTER torque compared to a BLDC. BLDCs do NOT overload well)

[Elegancec]

I think BLDCs have only 2 servere issues:

They need the seltene Erden - neobdynmagnetics - I do not know if I wrote correctly.
And if the magnets will be too warm, they will loss there magnetic field. For trial and error its to fragile. But if everything is matching and the parameters for operation are clear and the cooling is guaranteed and they have a vector control, than they are state of the art also in there weight / performance ratio.

The Scott system has maybe one issue: The EMC from the switching and the vibrations. But it can only be marked in a test.

[ruckus]

Originally Posted by somanywelps

1) COST

2) PEAK POWER (These are not race cars, they are street sport cars or dragsters)

3) COST per unit of performance.

(Also you can force air cool and do some other stuff. A Kostov 11" Alpha ($2700) is rated for 50kw continuous and puts out MONSTER torque compared to a BLDC. BLDCs do NOT overload well)

1) cost ... Well, lets just look at the numbers shall we? How about a cost comparison?
Using the Kostov 11 you say is $2700, add $3150 for a Solitron 1, add $130-200 for a contactor, How much for 4 10amp 12v circuits? Lets pretend that is only $100. So you are OVER $6000!! plus, you had to house and wire the contactors and auxiliary power circuits and pay shipping on all the individual components. hmmm..

OR, you could spec the Scott Drive for only $5495. It has all that stuff on the inside. Did you realize that is the price WITH the motor?

2) not sure what you are saying here. Please elaborate.

3) Cost per unit of performance is LOWER for BLDC than any other motor type. Maybe it is just because I live in MT and we have to cross very steep and long passes, but a high continuous hp is the ONLY thing that will allow you to do this. Otherwise you will be on the side of the road with the VW busses... Overheated and broke down

If you google Neodymium you will find this "rare" earth material is actually extremely common and easily produced. Not a problem at all.

Cheers

Sorry- forgot to talk about "monster" torque.
The Powertec E215 is 211 lbs and puts out 500 ft lbs. Not sure what you mean by "monster", but that doesn't seem all that shabby.

[ElectriCar]

Solitons have the contactors built in also. And you can get them a few hundred dollars less than what you said so you're being misleading in more ways than one.

[ruckus]

Not trying to be "misleading". Just quoted the price off EVSource which I thought was sort of "standard" prices.

Thanks for catching the contactor is included on the Solitron. My bad. Even so, the price of the BLDC motor is not crazy expensive like he is pretending. At best it is cheaper, at worst it is competitive in price. If you spec a Netgain instead of a Kostov then it is Definitely cheaper.

Brushed DC motors have become like bms vs no bms. More of a religion than a fact-based reality.

Many folks on this forum are financially linked to brushed motors continuing to sell despite their high failure rate. I have no allegiance other than searching for a reliable and affordable solution. I have tried brushed motors and have been disappointed. I want others to be aware of the reality and investigate the number of failures instead of blindly believing they are "reliable".

I believe it is best for the EV movement if our products are actually reliable. Otherwise our credibility is nill and there will be a backlash.

Cheers.

[somanywelps]

Originally Posted by ruckus

Thanks for catching the contactor is included on the Solitron. My bad. Even so, the price of the BLDC motor is not crazy expensive like he is pretending. At best it is cheaper, at worst it is competitive in price.

No. That's a ~300kw peak, ~310ft*lb peak arrangement. You're comparing it a 100kw peak arrangement that no one's tested. Also Tesseract pointed out some issues with the wave generation from the controller (basically the torque is gonna suck).

A 132kw peak Brushed DC would be a $1700 Kostov 9" 220V motor and a $2000 soliton Jr. (6800rpm nominal, wide powerband)

You could even step down to near 80kw with a $700 kelly and $1300 kostov 9"

Originally Posted by ruckus

If you spec a Netgain instead of a Kostov then it is Definitely cheaper.

No. Kostovs are cheaper.

Originally Posted by ruckus

Brushed DC motors have become like bms vs no bms. More of a religion than a fact-based reality.

No. They're more cost effective for independent builders.

Originally Posted by ruckus

Many folks on this forum are financially linked to brushed motors continuing to sell despite their high failure rate.

No they don't have a high failure rate unless you're overloading them to shit for drag racing.

Originally Posted by ruckus

I have no allegiance other than searching for a reliable and affordable solution. I have tried brushed motors and have been disappointed. I want others to be aware of the reality and investigate the number of failures instead of blindly believing they are "reliable".

No. They are reliable with reasonable overload.

Originally Posted by ruckus

I believe it is best for the EV movement if our products are actually reliable. Otherwise our credibility is nill and there will be a backlash.

Cheers.

No. They are reliable with reasonable overload, they even have rated overloads.

Cite where EV-intended brushed DC (not the china crap) are unreliable

[ruckus]

Originally Posted by somanywelps

Cite where EV-intended brushed DC (not the china crap) are unreliable

I'll cut to the chase instead of arguing misunderstandings or minutia. (which there are plenty in your post)

Your claim that Brushed motors are reliable and are only failing under abuse is not supportable by the experiences of many people.

I will list just a few of the recent well-documented failures under normal use.

Tim Catellier had 2 Netgain failures with barely any miles. He is on #3.
Jack Rickard had 1 Netgain failure out of 3 motors used. Low mile failure.
SBJohnston had a FB1-4001 complete brush failure. Look at the pics:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums...ure-73628.html
DavidDymaxion "blew" the brushes in his Kostov.
Here is another blog with a blown 9" motor well documented:
http://www.saturn.lynnautorepair.com...%209%20Netgain
These stories are common. Do you have Google there?

Just by bringing up this issue I have people PM'ing me to share more of the same. They don't want to post due to the amount of backlash that they are seeing aimed at those who come forward and tell the truth.

My goal is to see these issues resolved and to have EV's be reliable and awesome. If the EV movement gains power only to have lots of motors failing that will be a major setback.

Why are you defending brushed motor failures? What do you have at stake? I gain nothing but ridicule by bringing up this unpopular topic.

[efan]

Originally Posted by somanywelps

No. That's a ~300kw peak, ~310ft*lb peak arrangement. You're comparing it a 100kw peak arrangement that no one's tested. Also Tesseract pointed out some issues with the wave generation from the controller (basically the torque is gonna suck).

A 132kw peak Brushed DC would be a $1700 Kostov 9" 220V motor and a $2000 soliton Jr. (6800rpm nominal, wide powerband)

You could even step down to near 80kw with a $700 kelly and $1300 kostov 9"

There is no point of talking about price. Although there are some quality conversion components both DC and 3-phase AC they are all overpriced for their purpose. When you put together a decent DC motor, controller, charger, a battery pack and a vehicle that you would have no issue being seen in, you are at a price point where you can purchase a used Leaf or a Volt.

[ruckus]

Originally Posted by efan

There is no point of talking about price. Although there are some quality conversion components both DC and 3-phase AC they are all overpriced for their purpose. When you put together a decent DC motor, controller, charger, a battery pack and a vehicle that you would have no issue being seen in, you are at a price point where you can purchase a used Leaf or a Volt.

Ha Ha, that is funny. A USED Leaf or Volt. You crack me up. They are just starting to think about releasing them in my state (MT).

You are right though, it isn't exactly FREE to build a custom car. But when was it ever?

Drive...5500
Batt....8000
Charge..500
misc...1000
--------------
Total... 15,000 PLUS car (1-5000). Not even close to $30000+ for a Leaf.

If you want to save money there are lots deals on Ebay. Or heck, order some magnets and a spool of wire and get to winding...