[Pop-boy racer103]

So posted in the chit chat section outlined what I want to do, then did some reading. Read the wiki through and although covers a lot, it doesn't make anything specific, i.e. motors, a list of dc motors of different voltages and sizes. As a newbie at this and very little electronics experience I need some guidance.
My car is not very aerodynamic but then it's not intended to go very fast. Has a top speed of 60 mph with a 35 hp sidevalve ice and I don't need it to go any faster, just get there a little quicker and negotiate hills better. The car weighs 3/4 ton. I will keep the gearbox. What dc motor would be suitable, I see there are 36v, 72v and 144volt. I read about batteries, people seem to be talking about building up cells to make different voltage supplies, what about Nissan Leaf or other manufacturers batteries, what voltage are they, or is it more to with kWh and the controller meters out the voltage. I could do with a shopping list to get me going on a reasonable budget with a dc motor and suitable controller. Then I can make an adaptor to my gearbox. I will visit some forklift companies but need to have some idea of what I need.

 

[Duncan]

You will need a motor!

Look for either 9 inches diameter - about 60 Kg weight or 11 inch diameter about 100 kg weight
In both cases you want a male driveshaft - pump motors have a female driveshaft and are very very difficult to use

Read the using a forklift motor thread in the motors section for more details

Throw the gearbox over a hedge - not required - and its a LOT easier to just couple the motor to the prop shaft

You will need to upvolt the motor (not difficult) and use it at a higher voltage - I would say 144v is the minimum

Best would be using Leaf or Volt (or Tesla) battery modules - the batteries in all of these come apart into handy dandy "modules" which can then be stacked to get the voltage you want

 

[brian_]

From your intro thread, regarding going without the stock transmission:

... the pop has a torque tube so not sure how that would work.

That's certainly an issue. People using a motor directly to the propeller shaft (driveshaft) - with no gearbox - need to adapt the motor shaft to the driveshaft. One approach is to use the tail housing of a transmission; the Netgain TransWarp motors are set up this way (using a GM automatic transmission tail housing, so it wouldn't suit the Pop). If you are able to fit the motor in the transmission tunnel, you could consider adapting the tail housing (or rearmost portion) of the Ford transmission to the output end of the motor, and keeping both the transmission mount (assuming it is at the tail) and the torque tube pivot hardware stock.

My understanding is that the Popular is often "hot rodded", typically in drag race style with a large engine and stronger rear axle. If those conversions change the rear suspension to one not using a torque tube (adding control links instead), you could do the same thing... although it seems like a lot of effort just to work around the torque tube issue.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

As a newbie at this and very little electronics experience I need some guidance.

I see you're in the UK. If you have the time why not come along to the Fully Charged Live event in June? (see here) Several members of this forum will be exhibiting and I know one has a fascinating new drivetrain that could be ideal for your car

 

[Karter2]

Ahhh ! Ford Pop...i learnt to drive in one of those , '53 model i believe.
But looking at the torque tube in this diagram..
https://www.smallfordspares.co.uk/plates/10-rear-axle-torque-tube
I dont see a big issue coupling a motor to it as it still uses a "universal joint" coupling.
Of course you will have to fab up suitable adaptors and shaft fittings.
They are pretty tough old motors, but i dont know how much torque a 1940/50's axle gearing etc , can handle ?
( We used to " race" the more modern 100/107E , '60s Popular, and frequently snapped the half shafts.)

 

[brian_]

But looking at the torque tube in this diagram..
https://www.smallfordspares.co.uk/plates/10-rear-axle-torque-tube
I dont see a big issue coupling a motor to it as it still uses a "universal joint" coupling.
Of course you will have to fab up suitable adaptors and shaft fittings.

I wouldn't be so confident that the motor shaft and the miscellaneous bits used to adapt a U-joint yoke to it are suitable to provide the force (in every direction) required to properly locate the rear axle assembly. And then there's that boot to cover it which needs to fasten to something. Maybe it will work without adding any proper bearings or seals...

 

[Pop-boy racer103]

You will need a motor!

Look for either 9 inches diameter - about 60 Kg weight or 11 inch diameter about 100 kg weight
In both cases you want a male driveshaft - pump motors have a female driveshaft and are very very difficult to use

Read the using a forklift motor thread in the motors section for more details

Throw the gearbox over a hedge - not required - and its a LOT easier to just couple the motor to the prop shaft

You will need to upvolt the motor (not difficult) and use it at a higher voltage - I would say 144v is the minimum

Best would be using Leaf or Volt (or Tesla) battery modules - the batteries in all of these come apart into handy dandy "modules" which can then be stacked to get the voltage you want

Thanks Duncan, I need it spelt out. So a motor minimum 144v or lower and up volt it? The gearbox and clutch are staying, I'm not looking to race anyone, just have a more useable vehicle in modern traffic. I want it to remain mostly as it is.

 

[Pop-boy racer103]

From your intro thread, regarding going without the stock transmission:

That's certainly an issue. People using a motor directly to the propeller shaft (driveshaft) - with no gearbox - need to adapt the motor shaft to the driveshaft. One approach is to use the tail housing of a transmission; the Netgain TransWarp motors are set up this way (using a GM automatic transmission tail housing, so it wouldn't suit the Pop). If you are able to fit the motor in the transmission tunnel, you could consider adapting the tail housing (or rearmost portion) of the Ford transmission to the output end of the motor, and keeping both the transmission mount (assuming it is at the tail) and the torque tube pivot hardware stock.

My understanding is that the Popular is often "hot rodded", typically in drag race style with a large engine and stronger rear axle. If those conversions change the rear suspension to one not using a torque tube (adding control links instead), you could do the same thing... although it seems like a lot of effort just to work around the torque tube issue.

Remaining as an historic vehicle requires 8 points. Removing the engine is a loss of 2 points, gearbox is 1 point, an axle is 2 points. Changing the axle would usually mean changing the suspension another 2 points. There are 14 points in total, brakes are free to change.

 

[Pop-boy racer103]

I see you're in the UK. If you have the time why not come along to the Fully Charged Live event in June? (see here) Several members of this forum will be exhibiting and I know one has a fascinating new drivetrain that could be ideal for your car

I hope to get there Kevin

 

[brian_]

So a motor minimum 144v or lower and up volt it?

The stock voltage for these forklift motors is typically 48V. Duncan is recommending 144 volts as the minimum for the the increased operating voltage (so, triple the stock voltage).

 

[brian_]

Look for either 9 inches diameter - about 60 Kg weight or 11 inch diameter about 100 kg weight

The gearbox and clutch are staying...
I want it to remain mostly as it is.

Fortunately, by keeping the transmission, you can run the motor at higher speed, allowing the use of a smaller motor. If you're using a typical series DC motor the transmission also allows you to reverse without adding a reversing contactor setup. It's only a three-speed, so the transmission shouldn't be very heavy anyway... although I suppose at that vintage it could have a cast-iron case.

 

[Pop-boy racer103]

The stock voltage for these forklift motors is typically 48V. Duncan is recommending 144 volts as the minimum for the the increased operating voltage (so, triple the stock voltage).

So that's ok to do. I think I read higher voltage is ok and doesn't damage the motor.

 

[ferd]

Hi Pop-boy. We've converted several cars over the years, and while we cannot make decisions for you we'd like to offer some lessons we've learned.

Likely your car will weigh a little more after it is converted (despite removing the ICE and fuel system) if you add enough batteries to get practical range. That will affect how it climbs hills and handles - you may need to beef up the suspension and suspension mounts. Please check for and repair any corrosion in the car's frame and suspension since this is a very old car and you're going to increase the torque it handles.

About the gearbox, after building conversions with and without gearboxes and since this is your first we suggest keeping the gearbox. That allows reverse gear without extra contactors and wiring complexity. You won't need a working clutch, but the clutch parts can make it easier to mate the electric motor to the transmission. Of course with these parts in place you won't have to modify the driveshaft or rear end (assuming they're able to handle the torque). What we do is use a clutch plate and a homemade adapter - the adapter connects to the electric motor's shaft and then bolts to the clutch plate. The splines on the clutch plate slip over the transmission's input shaft, as the factory provided. Disconnect the clutch pedal - if you shift you can do it without the clutch, although it will take some practice with your transmission. BTW, you can extend your battery range somewhat by shifting gears to keep your electric motor in its most efficient range.

About the voltage, with a car this heavy you'll probably need the highest voltage. Be careful about applying 144v to a 48v motor (especially a used motor) because although it may be able to handle it for a while, your vehicle will be heavier than a forklift and so your motor will draw a lot of current while operating. We prefer a motor that is designed for the 144v 400 to 600 amp range you'll probably be operating within. Current burns up motors - brushes and windings have limits.

 

[Pop-boy racer103]

Hi Pop-boy. We've converted several cars over the years, and while we cannot make decisions for you we'd like to offer some lessons we've learned.

Likely your car will weigh a little more after it is converted (despite removing the ICE and fuel system) if you add enough batteries to get practical range. That will affect how it climbs hills and handles - you may need to beef up the suspension and suspension mounts. Please check for and repair any corrosion in the car's frame and suspension since this is a very old car and you're going to increase the torque it handles.

About the gearbox, after building conversions with and without gearboxes and since this is your first we suggest keeping the gearbox. That allows reverse gear without extra contactors and wiring complexity. You won't need a working clutch, but the clutch parts can make it easier to mate the electric motor to the transmission. Of course with these parts in place you won't have to modify the driveshaft or rear end (assuming they're able to handle the torque). What we do is use a clutch plate and a homemade adapter - the adapter connects to the electric motor's shaft and then bolts to the clutch plate. The splines on the clutch plate slip over the transmission's input shaft, as the factory provided. Disconnect the clutch pedal - if you shift you can do it without the clutch, although it will take some practice with your transmission. BTW, you can extend your battery range somewhat by shifting gears to keep your electric motor in its most efficient range.

About the voltage, with a car this heavy you'll probably need the highest voltage. Be careful about applying 144v to a 48v motor (especially a used motor) because although it may be able to handle it for a while, your vehicle will be heavier than a forklift and so your motor will draw a lot of current while operating. We prefer a motor that is designed for the 144v 400 to 600 amp range you'll probably be operating within. Current burns up motors - brushes and windings have limits.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

 

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

your vehicle will be heavier than a forklift and so your motor will draw a lot of current while operating.

The Ford weights 1600 lbs.

A tiny forklift weights 5000lbs. A bigger forklift weighs 10,000 lbs.

But it's apples to oranges.

How much current the motor draws has nothing to do with how heavy the vehicle is (directly). It has to do with what you're requiring the vehicle to do and how fast.

Forklifts max out a jogging speed. Forklifts are slow to accelerate. Cars will go highway speeds and may be told to take off faster. That's what will determine the power draw, not the weight.

 

[Pop-boy racer103]

The Ford weights 1600 lbs.

A tiny forklift weights 5000lbs. A bigger forklift weighs 10,000 lbs.

But it's apples to oranges.

How much current the motor draws has nothing to do with how heavy the vehicle is (directly). It has to do with what you're requiring the vehicle to do and how fast.

Forklifts max out a jogging speed. Forklifts are slow to accelerate. Cars will go highway speeds and may be told to take off faster. That's what will determine the power draw, not the weight.

The car does 60mph flat out. I don't need to go faster but I want it to go uphill faster than 20mph with a queue of cars behind it.

 

[Duncan]

Hi Paul

As a comparison my car weighs 810kg - 1782 lbs
I'm doing 85 mph at the end of the 1/8th mile

I think that exceeds your performance requirements!

At 130v my top speed was 60 mph - but it got there pretty rapidly and would fly up even the steepest of hills

As far as ferd's comments about voltage and current - I have just blown up my motor (I got another one for $150)
This is after five years on the road and on the track - giving it severe abuse!
My motor was "Rated" at 48v and 200 amps - I have been using 340v and 1200 amps

AND - I suspect that the reason it failed is because I physically damage one of the armature wires about eight years ago when I was building the car and misjudged just how heavy the armature was

 

[Pop-boy racer103]

Hi Paul

As a comparison my car weighs 810kg - 1782 lbs
I'm doing 85 mph at the end of the 1/8th mile

I think that exceeds your performance requirements!

At 130v my top speed was 60 mph - but it got there pretty rapidly and would fly up even the steepest of hills

As far as ferd's comments about voltage and current - I have just blown up my motor (I got another one for $150)
This is after five years on the road and on the track - giving it severe abuse!
My motor was "Rated" at 48v and 200 amps - I have been using 340v and 1200 amps

AND - I suspect that the reason it failed is because I physically damage one of the armature wires about eight years ago when I was building the car and misjudged just how heavy the armature was

Hi Duncan, could you tell me about your battery layout. I've read about batteries in parallel and series and as an electrician I understand that, but to get 144v requires 12 X 12v batteries in series but increases in ah requires parallel and with for example, 12 X 12v batteries in series X 2 in parallel only doubles the ah of two batteries in parallel.