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1995 Eagle Talon AWD : Kostov 11 : Soliton 1

38030 Views 122 Replies 16 Participants Last post by  Old.DSMer
I've been reading, researching, and planning for a long time. I picked up a '95 Eagle Talon AWD in April of 2012. Its not the 'best' candidate for an EV, but I like the style, the AWD, and the aerodynamics (0.29 Cd). The 2.0L turbo is very snappy once it spools up. I did some power comparisons in this thread and decided on the K11-250 motor. The Soliton 1 followed right behind it. Batteries are still up in the air, but the plan is 60Ah to 90Ah Sinopolies or CALB greys. Voltage will probably start around 160 for preliminary tests and then work up to 300V for the final design. It should yield about 160kW at about 6C (with the 90Ah). I could push the 60Ah harder, but I'll see how things evolve.

My blog is evtalon.blogspot.ca and I will be trying to keep that up-to-date as possible. I've been going through all the mechanical and have just started on the conversion. So far, I've pulled the engine, dropped the exhaust and separated the transmission.

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks RW!

A bit over-due, but progress is slow as you well know :D

This is a great forum for discussing possibilities and solutions. Every one of us is custom building something, so its always nice to get some other opinions and input. As well as draw on the extensive experience in these forums!

So I'm all ears :)
 

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Glad to see you here.

The 0.29 Cd is a really good thing... I know what I'm talking about considering my 0.38 Cd Smart fortwo (aka little Brick!)...:eek:
What kind of schedule do you expect? Date to first road test? Date of purchase of cells?
 

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I had a 95 Tsi, bought new and drove the crap out of it.... fun when you keep the turbo spooled up, but pretty heavy around town. I always had problems with windshield fogging like crazy in the winter.

you're going to have to retain power steering probably.... so plan on an electric pump for that.

EV build wise..... an 11" motor will be a screamer, and w/ awd you might keep it on the road. ;) I would suggest NOT 'phasing' in more batteries for higher voltage later. You really don't want to deal with different ages of cells potentially from different batches, changing your charger, dc-dc, etc. Also, a word of caution in going over 160v nominal is that components get a lot harder to find and much more expensive. To keep weight and cost down, I'd stick w/ 156v nominal x 100ah 'new' CALBs unless you REALLY need more range. You're going to run out of room pretty quick since the drive train limits where you can hang battery boxes, unless you give up the micro rear seat/cargo area completely.....

oh, just checked your blog.... was wondering if you would have room for an 11". you might be better to switch to twin 9" ?! If are still considering an offset, ReBirth has done some pretty wild twin adaptors that are offset.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Glad to see you here.

The 0.29 Cd is a really good thing... I know what I'm talking about considering my 0.38 Cd Smart fortwo (aka little Brick!)...:eek:
What kind of schedule do you expect? Date to first road test? Date of purchase of cells?
Hi Yabert - no real deadlines yet. Right now its a project wedged into the usual chaos of life with kids in sports :) I have some Sinopoly 60Ah cells and a PL6 to do some comparisons against the CALB greys. So I'll see how it plays out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I had a 95 Tsi, bought new and drove the crap out of it.... fun when you keep the turbo spooled up, but pretty heavy around town. I always had problems with windshield fogging like crazy in the winter.
It is a fun little car :D

This was my first winter and I only had fogging issues once - it was extremely cold and there were other vehicles with window issues as well. I find keeping the AC running dries the air and reduces fogging as well. One of my older vehicles had a slow leak from the block heater - and it was a nightmare. But so far, so good with this one!


you're going to have to retain power steering probably.... so plan on an electric pump for that.
Yep, already have a PM motor from another project that should do the trick. I'm thinking about a PWM circuit to modulate pressure and maximize efficiency of the stock gear pump. I'm also keeping the AC - currently investigating electric options, but am also planning to run it off the secondary shaft.

Also, a word of caution in going over 160v nominal is that components get a lot harder to find and much more expensive. To keep weight and cost down, I'd stick w/ 156v nominal x 100ah 'new' CALBs
My motivation in going HV was to keep max current lower and thus reduce resistive losses and potential thermal issues. Perhaps phasing will be a bad idea, don't know? The spare tire well is cavernous and there is alot of room under the hood. I might even do a small pack in the existing fuel tank location (under the rear seat) - not sure about dimensions though, I have to remove the tank yet.

We discussed the dual 9's in my other thread - I still think that setup looks mean and would generate some interesting discussions at the coffee shop. But the added weight and cost wasn't a benefit. And a 9 would still interfere with my transfer case.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Latest Problem:

The K11 interferes with my transfer case (red line). So I'm going to have to come up with an offset drive setup. I really don't want to remove the AWD (thats why I picked this car, after all !!!). So time to get designing and see how a silent chain drive might work....

Its a common setup in almost all transfer cases in SUVs and 4x4 trucks. Correctly designed they can run quietly at 99% efficiency and 40m/s linear speed.

I'll have a very tight center to center on the shafts and the chain case will be extremely compact (2-3"). Anything wider and the motor will interfere with my front frame rails.

Below is only an example of an NP242 from a Jeep. I'll try a similar idea, just much more compact. 6061-T6 aluminum case/adapter plate combination. Time to get cracking on a design....
 

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Latest Problem:

The K11 interferes with my transfer case (red line). So I'm going to have to come up with an offset drive setup. I really don't want to remove the AWD (thats why I picked this car, after all !!!). So time to get designing and see how a silent chain drive might work....

Its a common setup in almost all transfer cases in SUVs and 4x4 trucks. Correctly designed they can run quietly at 99% efficiency and 40m/s linear speed.

I'll have a very tight center to center on the shafts and the chain case will be extremely compact (2-3"). Anything wider and the motor will interfere with my front frame rails.

Below is only an example of an NP242 from a Jeep. I'll try a similar idea, just much more compact. 6061-T6 aluminum case/adapter plate combination. Time to get cracking on a design....
What's inside that offending case? Any chance to just modify that case, perhaps just cut it along the green line and seal it against your motor?

It's hard to judge from the picture, but if the gears don't interfere and the cap has no structural duty it could be possible.


Regards
Ektus.
 

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Ok dumb question: what kind of adapter are you planning? Pretty certain my CAN-EV adapter will clear the red / green line area if I whacked part of it off. Probably not even need to whack stuff off the adapter because it sits back about 2 inches . clutched or not, wouldn't matter, but the Ranger shifts so much faster and easier with the clutch
 

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Old.DSMer
I have the exact same problem on my 4wd transaxle! Been limiting myself to motor diameters ~220mm/8.5" which really hits the power capability. Alternative is a longer motor, btu I am talking AC motors.

That Kostov is a great choice of motor in my opinion, have you already purchased it? What power/performance are you looking for? Would you consider an AC motor to avoid the offset drive? There are various options. I'm contemplating a few, but for power density, a dual EMRAX motor setup seems ideal, 225mm in diameter, and potentially 200kW (gross input to controller) max and nearly 100hp continuous with liquid cooled BLDC motors, 2300Euro each.

I found a few US companies offering suitable AC motors but dismissed them as I am in the UK and the cost to buy from US would be prohibitive.

What is the maximum diameter your transfer box will allow? it looks quite similar to mine. Mine is in a Toyota Rav4 by the way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
What's inside that offending case? Any chance to just modify that case, perhaps just cut it along the green line and seal it against your motor?

It's hard to judge from the picture, but if the gears don't interfere and the cap has no structural duty it could be possible.


Regards
Ektus.
Hi Ektus,

I already thought about that :)

Transfer case is about 1/4" at its thinnest point. Full of 2 large bevel gears and tapered bearings. No chance of modification :(

Thanks for the idea,though!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I know you were going to keep the clutch initially are you still going to try and keep it with the chain drive?
Yep, still keeping the clutch. The stock synchros are not at all forgiving. In the end if I find I can easily shift clutchless, I might remove it. But the first go around will keep the clutch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ok dumb question: what kind of adapter are you planning? Pretty certain my CAN-EV adapter will clear the red / green line area if I whacked part of it off. Probably not even need to whack stuff off the adapter because it sits back about 2 inches . clutched or not, wouldn't matter, but the Ranger shifts so much faster and easier with the clutch
Hi piotrsko, the adapter itself could be trimmed to clear that area. Problem is that the K11 motor is the diameter of the green line. The transfer case is about 6" thick and interferes with the motor. I'd require an adapter at least 6" thick to move the motor away from the transmission and clear the transfer case. I cannot do that because the motor would then hit the front frame rail. So the only option is to offset it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Old.DSMer
I have the exact same problem on my 4wd transaxle! Been limiting myself to motor diameters ~220mm/8.5" which really hits the power capability. Alternative is a longer motor, btu I am talking AC motors.

That Kostov is a great choice of motor in my opinion, have you already purchased it? What power/performance are you looking for?

What is the maximum diameter your transfer box will allow? it looks quite similar to mine. Mine is in a Toyota Rav4 by the way.
Hi tylerwatts, interesting your Rav4 is so similar. What year is it?

I investigated some AC options, but everything was out of my price range. The K11 and Soliton1 yielded the best bang for the buck so to speak. And I was graciously able to drive RW Audios car - he's using a Warp11. AWESOME. And he didn't even have his final battery pack complete! So, yes, I already have the Soliton and K11.

Ultimately if I can run 200-250hp, I would exceed the factory output and be very happy. Hopefully without breaking any drivetrain components!

My limit is also about 8.5" diameter. As stated above, I'm going to offset the motor to increase clearance and improve center of gravity slightly.

My week is swamped, but I'm trying to get something drafted up in the next week or two.
 

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Hi. Mine is 02, the last series of true 4x4 models.

Can you post a top view photo of your trans in the nine bay pleas? Is your motor a twin haft? I wonder how much length you can save on the motor by removing the fan and shortening the end housing. For cooling I would then consider a turbo cooling kit from evtv that I would force the air into the motor from the coupling end and offset the coupling/mating to the trans to clear the motor and transfer box.

But this is all speculation without a photo of your engine bay. Unfortunately I am totally unfamiliar with your vehicle, this was the first time I'd heard of one. By good looking car though! And love the awd!
 

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Oh I read it is sister to the Mitsubishi eclipse! Very nice cars those! Bullet proof mechanicals so should love the ev motor. Forget first gear though, waste of time with the Kostov11. I'm seriously thinking the best option is to strip a stock manual trans and keep 2 optimal gears for a low and high speed that should mean one doesn't need a clutch either.

I'll admit I've been thinking of it with AC motors in mind and using speed control when changing gear to match motor and gear speed to save the synchros. But it should be ok with a light Kostov DC motor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hey tylerwatts,

The 2002 is still one of the 1st gen. And wasn't it available as an EV? Or was that version only FWD?

I definitely wanted the AWD for winter months. And the added traction in the summer couldn't hurt. Especially if I make it out to the drag track :D Yep, its the sister of the 2g Eclipse.

Things are so busy, I don't foresee making it into the garage for another week. Modifying the case is something Yabert and I have discussed a little outside the forum.

I have some pics of the ICE removal in my blog. Also attached a couple I found online. The outside tips of the starter ring gear are about 10.75". And it runs behind the transfer case - just over 1". I'll have to do more detailed measuring of the motor to see if there is enough room for mods.

Which brings up a new question -- has anyone with a clutch ever had issues with the cooling fan sucking in clutch dust and contaminating the motor bearings?

The gear ratios are very tight. I doubt I will use 1st or 2nd and I might remove those gears at a later date.
 

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Old.DSMer
Mine is first of the early second gen models. 2002-2005, bofre the facelift when the drivetrain was made 'on-demand awd' with a viscous coupling (I think) meaning it was predominantly fwd most of the time.

Removing the gears sounds a good plan. And if 3-4-5 are close you could lose another and then only shift front-back like a high-low shifter. Might not need the clutch then.

Your bearings should be sealed so no problems with clutch dust, I'm sure the Kostov's are sealed! Clutch dust is not much different to brush dust, so at service intervals just clean out the dust with a small wire brush and air gun. Not heard of any problems with bearings from it.
 
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