1999 International 4700

LithiumaniacsEVRacing · 2011-02-19

I am starting my research for my motor options to replace the diesel engine this summer. Anyone have any sources for a HUGE AC or DC motor that can pull 31,000lbs? I was the first moving company to use biodiesel in all my trucks in CT, now its time for electric. :D Where is Smith Electric getting their motors?

ElectriCar

· #2 · Feb 20, 2011

I believe Smith makes their own. You may not find anything for that task other than an industrial motor which should work well with a diesel transmission as they typically top out at 3450 rpm but much more common is the 1725rpm. Also you may have to fabricate some multiple motor arrangement.

Onward to the battery requirements... Have you done any pack requirement calculations? You're going to pack a BUNCH of batteries in that thing. It seems like a hurculean task with today's batteries but you'll likely find a lot of room, depending on the size of your existing tanks. Probably be able to pack a bunch under and between the frame rails also.

I'll be following this build for sure! I have some full size vans I want to eventually convert. With all the charging stations popping up it'll be easier to do, especially with some possibly at my customers locations. This is exciting times we're living in for sure.

Oh yea, I used to make my own biodiesel too but the Ford 6.0 didn't like it too well long term. Well the engine was fine with it, the auxiliary pumps etc were the problems. After oil got hard to get I started looking elsewhere for answers and that's how I got to electric vehicles.

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DawidvC

· #3 · Feb 20, 2011

When looking at electric motors suitable for the conversion, you need to be more interested in the torque produced by the motor than just the kilowatts. Another thing to remember is that ICE and electric motors are rated entirely different - ICE usually is rated at peak output, while electric motors are rated for nominal output, according to duty cycle. Industrial motors will be S1, which means they output their power rating 24/7, traction motors are S2, usually 1 hour rating.

There are some companies making electric traction motors for heavy trucks, such as Remy International. They have a couple of motors that seems quite nice for this kind of application. I have no idea on price.

If you search through the forum you will find a couple of threads covering this subject, but I cannot remember offhand any completed project.

Regards, and good luck.
Dawid

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LithiumaniacsEVRacing

Discussion Starter · #4 · Feb 20, 2011

The diesel engine operated on low rpm's anyways, so, a low rpm DC motor will work just fine. Do you have any brands I can review with specs?

After removing the LARGE diesel tanks, battery space will not be a problem.

ElectriCar said:
I believe Smith makes their own. You may not find anything for that task other than an industrial motor which should work well with a diesel transmission as they typically top out at 3450 rpm but much more common is the 1725rpm. Also you may have to fabricate some multiple motor arrangement.

Onward to the battery requirements... Have you done any pack requirement calculations? You're going to pack a BUNCH of batteries in that thing. It seems like a hurculean task with today's batteries but you'll likely find a lot of room, depending on the size of your existing tanks. Probably be able to pack a bunch under and between the frame rails also.

I'll be following this build for sure! I have some full size vans I want to eventually convert. With all the charging stations popping up it'll be easier to do, especially with some possibly at my customers locations. This is exciting times we're living in for sure.

Oh yea, I used to make my own biodiesel too but the Ford 6.0 didn't like it too well long term. Well the engine was fine with it, the auxiliary pumps etc were the problems. After oil got hard to get I started looking elsewhere for answers and that's how I got to electric vehicles.

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LithiumaniacsEVRacing

Discussion Starter · #5 · Feb 20, 2011

I will research Remy International, thanks!

DawidvC said:
When looking at electric motors suitable for the conversion, you need to be more interested in the torque produced by the motor than just the kilowatts. Another thing to remember is that ICE and electric motors are rated entirely different - ICE usually is rated at peak output, while electric motors are rated for nominal output, according to duty cycle. Industrial motors will be S1, which means they output their power rating 24/7, traction motors are S2, usually 1 hour rating.

There are some companies making electric traction motors for heavy trucks, such as Remy International. They have a couple of motors that seems quite nice for this kind of application. I have no idea on price.

If you search through the forum you will find a couple of threads covering this subject, but I cannot remember offhand any completed project.

Regards, and good luck.
Dawid

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LithiumaniacsEVRacing

Discussion Starter · #6 · Feb 20, 2011

What I need to start research is:

AC Motor - HP needed? etc....
DC Motor - HP nedded? etc....

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LithiumaniacsEVRacing

Discussion Starter · #7 · Feb 20, 2011

Wow, this conversion may be a hefty one! $$$$

http://www.e-motorsonline.com/products.html?cat=3&f=19_3597

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LithiumaniacsEVRacing

Discussion Starter · #8 · Feb 20, 2011

Now, this is one badd-azz motor!!!!

http://www.e-motorsonline.com/product_DCM00582.html

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LithiumaniacsEVRacing

Discussion Starter · #9 · Feb 20, 2011

This is more in my price range...

http://www.e-motorsonline.com/product_DCM00507.html

Now, will 100hp do the job?

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jackbauer

· #10 · Feb 20, 2011

You may hit problems with those motors as they are shunt wound. Starting torque will be poor afaik.

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ElectriCar

· #11 · Feb 20, 2011

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:
This is more in my price range...

http://www.e-motorsonline.com/product_DCM00507.html

Now, will 100hp do the job?

For the load u will haul? That would ne a NAW! MY S10 Has a 20hp for a 4150lb load!

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Ektus

· #12 · Feb 20, 2011

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:
This is more in my price range...

http://www.e-motorsonline.com/product_DCM00507.html

IMHO, that's quite expensive for a 100hp motor without controller. I'd check for industrial AC motors also, those should be had for half that nowadays. Look for Siemens 1PH7 186 or 1PH7 225 or similar. The latter is available with up to 125kW S1 power.

Starting point for documentation: http://www.automation.siemens.com/d...em=&cd=SINUMERIK_SINAMICS_04_2010_E&scope=all

Technical data with diagrams: http://www.automation.siemens.com/doconweb/pdf/SINUMERIK_SINAMICS_04_2010_E/APH7W.pdf?p=85#page=152&view=FitBH,0&pagemode=none

You would need very high voltage (600V) to make use of the full RPM range, but OTOH, you're going to need lots of batteries anyway to get any decent range. And the higher the voltage, the lower the amperage.

Page 152 of the manual shows 1PH7 186...F.. which is rated 74kW continous at 1500RPM and may go up to 4500RPM. It will need 170A to deliver this power, and can take twice that for short periods of time. S1 torque is 470Nm from zero to 1500RPM. It will need 330VAC at 1500RPM, that should be around 470VDC input voltage for the controller.

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:
Now, will 100hp do the job?

100hp continuous for that big a vehicle (30.000lb, 13.6t) might be okay for city cruising and without trailer, as long as you can use low gear. It may be a little low for highway. But as electric motors can deliver at least twice their nominal torque for short periods of time, you might be okay. Check the available torque of the diesel engine and compare that to the torque of the electric motor. Then check the motor RPM at the speed you're cruising.

The batteries to supply the energy for this kind of application will be the bigger part. I'd guess 40kWh pack capacity as the absolute minimum, triple that for any useful application beyond testing on the driveway.

Just my opinion, it's my first post here. I've done nothing in EV yet, but I'm mechanical engineer and do (among other things, of course) power calculations for industrial appliances for a living.

With best regards
Ektus.

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ElectriCar

· #13 · Feb 20, 2011

Guy if you are serious about this, I may have a large motor for you at a much better price. HOWEVER, you will have a much easier time finding an AC motor than DC. I'll try and post what's available tomorrow sometime but it may be a couple of days as I've got a lot to do tomorrow.

FIRST though we really need to figure out how much motor you need. Just how much is the loaded weight and how far are you wanting to haul it? You had mentioned 31,000 lbs it that tractor & loaded trailer?

There are some Calb 400Ah batteries but they are going to be discontinued sometime in March. Possibly get a good deal for close out pricing.

For a 500V system, you'd need about 155 batteries. 400Ah X 155 X 3.2V =
198.4 Kw pack.
Weight 4887Lbs
Cost @ $1.23/Ah: $76,260 +taxes & freight.
Battery dimensions: 17.72 x 2.83 x 11.18 in.

Truthfully you could get them for probably under $1.20 for this size order direct from Calb.

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wherethere42

· #14 · Mar 31, 2011

i've been a fly on the wall on this site for a couple months now.... being a man, i like big things

i stumbled upon this on ebay. if its big enough for a train it may be what you are after!
http://cgi.ebay.com/GM-D89-AC-Traction-Motor-/300489786270?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f696439e

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NZero

· #15 · Apr 5, 2011

Well there are plenty of buses/trams/trains that use electric motors so maybe find a wreck and salvage some parts? Theres a motor and controller sorted.
Then we move on to batteries, you're going to need high Amp hours to make it useable, both for range and so that current draw doesnt let the smoke out of the wiring.

Do you have a budget in mind?

You have mentioned biodiesel and I can only assume you are wanting this to actually perform short haul duties?
I would ask battery manufacturers to supply you as
1, your volume should make it worth while for them
2, it'll be the best advertising in the world for them so price should come waaaay down.

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