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2001 "REV4" - Build Thread

101276 Views 144 Replies 27 Participants Last post by  tylerwatts, 
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3
Formally introducing myself - I am an Electrical Engineer working in power
systems (wind farms, HVDC links, machines etc...) and specializing in
computer simulation. I also have a bit of auto-mechanic experience (I
have owned a 1975 F250 4x4 Highboy since 1983).

I have been a long time lurker here - thank you all for the phenomenal
support/information - this is a great site!

I am also fortunate to have my nephew (Derek) helping me on this - he is
18 and will graduate from high school this year. He has an aptitude for
taking stuff apart and fixing things, so this is a win-win situation. I enjoy
working with him, and his help will be appreciated. We hope to work every
Saturday and maybe one evening during the week. I have 2 boys (6 and 8)
who play hockey etc... so I am already pushing the limits of my spare
time - this will be a very slow build...


I recently saw Rob's (RKM) Red Miata - this lit a bit of a fire, so here we go...



My overall plan is to convert a relatively new vehicle (>2000) and to make
an EV that works just like its ICE counterpart in all ways - it will have
power everything, heated leather seats, full trunk space, air conditioning,
AWD etc... The plan is to demonstrate that you do not have to give up
anything to drive an EV (in fact it will be faster and better). Of course this
will not be a cheap build, nor will it be a super-efficient low kWH/kM build,
but it will be a very driveable car I will use as a daily driver in all seasons
(also more on this later).

I really only need about 50kM of range per day, but given winter
conditions in Winnipeg, and my desire to not push any equipment close to
its ratings, I will try to squeeze in more batteries/range than what is
really needed.





I finally bought my donor and started work:
2001 Toyota RAV4, 135,000 kM, AWD

I choose the RAV as it is a family car (would love a light 2 seater
convertible but with a family of 4 it is a no go), has some height/weight,
plus it has a history/reputation for EV'ers (stock RAV4 Ev etc...). also
considered a Ford Escape or Honda CR-V...

Everyone loves pics (although this is only the stock car so far):









Yeah - I know - the big sticker on the hood has to go. You should have
seen the car before - it had "all available Canadian Tire options". I bought
an OEM leather interior kit, as well as some carbon seat heaters for driver
and passenger with 5 position dial (I can hear the groans from all the EV
purists who have scrimped on weight/features etc... to get max range!)





My "REV4" EV Conversion Plan (please - all comments/suggestions/feedback welcome!):
- Warp 11 (or maybe even Warp 11 HV?) motor
- Zilla HV 1K or Soliton1 (not decided yet)
- SE or TS LFP batteries, probably 65*100AH (more if there is room - more on this later)
- keeping the 5 spd manual transmission, have bought a new clutch

Note that the motor and controller are likely more than the stock
clutch/transmission/AWD system can handle - I figure that equipment that
is rated for higher duty conditions but driven "soft" will last longer, not
heat up etc... (definitely an engineer talking - over design it). I love the
power however, so will start with the max controller amps limited, then
increase it until everything feels shakey, then back it down a bit...

If the Warp 11 HV motor receives good tests reports, then it seems like a
no-brainer for the cost - I will use a high voltage and as many batteries
as I can fit.

I plan to put the majority of batteries under the hood (on top of the DC
motor, manual transverse transmission and AWD transfer case). There
also is room under the rear of the car where the gas tank used to be (2
smaller boxes) - keeping the 4x4 definitely adds a penalty here as the
rear drive shaft cuts everything into 2. I do not want to fill up the
trunk/back seat with batteries though.

The batteries are a big pain (a low-height LFP battery that can stick under
the floor pans would be killer) - in reality I only have about 11" to work
with (which means TS or SE 100AH batteries, which are 8.66" high - once
you add the BMS, enclosure, insulation and heating pads, this doesn't
leave too many options. There are also the new SE 240Ah batteries (6.73"
high, 17.72" long, 2.8" thick) but that massive 18" length just won't match
up with the room I have in the car.

Horizontal placement of the batteries would also work, but I have been
told by SE that this is not recommended and would void warranty.

I think I can fit about 20kWH of batteries into the 3 boxes - I will pull out
all the junk in the way before ordering batteries though (maybe a
reasonable priced A123 deal will come along between now and then?)...

One non-logical aspect to my choices are using a 1000Amp controller with
100AH batteries - 5C would be a huge draw (perhaps too much?) so higher
AH batteries would be a better fit - they are too darn tall however (or too
wide for the 240AH) so I am somewhat torn/stuck. All suggestions
appreciated here - what would you do?




I am undecided on many other parts - will be deciding soon though. I will need:

- electric vacuum pump for power brake booster (Rob/RKM showed me a
pump that was enclosed inside of the vacuum tank - that made sense to
me!).
- electric power steering pump (no-one in Canada has a 2000-2005 MR2
Spyder pump - trying hard to find one in US for a decent cost - let me
know if you find one!)
- hydraulic pump/heater for interior heat (will keep stock heater core and
fan/controls - I don't like the idea of electric heaters inside the interior
heater core)
- 1000 Amp contactors/breakers/fuses?
- battery heating pads (it gets to -40 deg in Winnipeg for a few weeks
every year and I have to get to work!).
- BMS
- charger (I want a dual voltage 120/240 charger - 30 Amps would be lots)


I plan to pull the motor etc... soon (1 or 2 weekends from now) - I will
take careful measurements for the motor and batteries and make some
decisions then...



I have never done this (and definitely respect the people who have) so
please - all comments/suggestions appreciated!


Garth
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G
Some great ideas here - I think I will walk before I run though - will think about all of the other lights later... I would have to have lots of spare time on my hands to work on the "talking dash" concept.

Since we are day-dreaming, I eventually will add a car-pc - it will have GPS/navigation, rear camera, fm radio, media player, weather, wireless internet, e-mail, engine diagnostics/OBDII interface, battery monitoring, bluetooth cell phone and voice dialing etc... There are some nice touchscreens that fold into a double din pc enclosure (need to find a bright one that works at -40C though)... No shortage of things you can do once there is a pc onboard... "Flash" is important (again I defintely am not an EV purist with statements like this).

I looked for some general purpose analog to digital I/O boards to connect to the PC (need many inputs for battery monitoring) - instead I will probably get a PakTrakr, which streams a CSV string every 1 sec, which can be captured onto the PC and decoded, plotted etc...

One thing at a time though - first to pull the motor and ICE junk!
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G
Made some progress on Saturday - most of the junk is away from the motor, just have the motor to pull. Only hacked 1 part to bits (short exhaust section) and all parts in good condition... Lots of Toyota fiddling required though (I curse the engineer who designed the power steering pump mount!).

Key tip: Before you start, have the Air Conditioner refrigerant evacuated at a shop! Releasing the refrigerant (both R12 and R134a) is VERY bad for the environment. Rob (RKM) warned me about this and I promptly forgot. Fortunately I have a friend in the A/C business (thanks Malcolm!) who is bringing by a portable purging unit.

The A/C has to be discharged for 2 reasons:
1) to get the condenser out of the way to pull the motor (same size as the main radiator and directly in front of it).
2) To remove the interior heater core, it may be necessary to remove the evaporator coil (mine does require this).

Pictures next weekend once the engine is pulled and the engine compartment is free of the clutter.
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G
I had an portable A/C evac unit lined up, but residential A/C fittings are not the same as auto A/C fittings. Shops around here would not sell me the R134A fittings, as you have to show them an A/C license.

Ended up towing the car to a shop - $45 later, the A/C system is evacuated.

How NOT to tow a car:




PITA - but I couldn't release the R134 refrigerant into the air (legally and ethically - would have tainted my "green" REV4 . Wish I "had my ears" on and did this while it was still running...

Removed all hoses, and tied up the ends with plastic bags/elastics (to keep the air/moisture/rust out.

Good to have the A/C disconnected though - made for easy access (now that the condenser and hoses are out of the way). Since I will imbed ceramic heaters into the heater core, I will have to disconnect the A/C anyway (to get at the heater core).
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G
3
How NOT to Pull a Motor on a RAV4 AWD

How NOT to pull a motor:

1) Never use your child's swingset:


2) Use proper chain hoists
Come-alongs are not made for lifting.



3) Make sure you read the factory manual and drop the motor as recommended by the manufacturer.
Toyota factory service manual tells you to keep the motor and transmission together (I have an AWD, so its the motor, transmission and transfer case). I clearly thought this was smoke and mirrors, so managed to pull just the motor and went straight up. I liked this approach as it leaves the drive shafts, cv joints, steering, brakes etc.,.. untouched. That said, it is a pain to do.

If anyone else tries this:
- remove everything from the front of the motor (power steering, water pump, crankshaft pulley, A/C, alternator, passenger side motor mount etc...
- remove the front transmission mount, and lift slightly (to give room for the transmission to clear the lower frame member (or unbolt the frame member).
- separate the motor and transmission as much as you can, then unbolt the 6 clutch bolts (slowly releasing each bolt a bit at a time) - you can rotate the motor/crank and unbolt the bolts from the clutch to the flywheel from the top
- move the clutch pressure plate back onto the transmission and remove the clutch disc
- there should now be JUST enough room (1/2" to spare?) to lift the motor straight up - see photo below:



Despite these pitfalls, we managed to get the motor out via the top - hurray!
Photo below has some of the junk on the front re-added.
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R
Garth,

Despite the hassle and cost, you know you did the right thing by properly evacuating the refridgerent. I think I told you this story already. When I contacted my local Ag dealer about a service call out to evacuate my AC, he looked at me and said "You know, most people would have an "accidental" leak." Like you, I explained that releasing the R134A to the atmosphere wouldn't fit well with a Green car project. It cost me $75 but that was a service call, no tow required.

Glad to hear your progress. Fun, isn't it?

Take care.

Rob
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G
2
Oh-oh - big problem! Which motor will fit?

Oh-oh - big problem...

Look at these pictures - top view:


Manual transmission is on the right, AWD transfer case (top) bolts to the transmission, and has a rear drive shaft exiting toward the vehicle rear (not shown).

and side view (zoomed in):



The manual transmission bell housing is plenty wide, but the transfer case (remember, this is AWD with a transverse motor mount) sticks out and really limits how big of a motor can fit.

I was hoping to build a rocket, and maybe use a Warp 11 or Warp 11 HV motor, but this clearly is out of the question. My fallback was to settle for a Warp 9, however even this is questionable.

The Warp 9 diameter is 9.25" - I have just enough room for 4", 19/32, equals 9.1875".

This is too close to call - can anyone confirm that the Warp 9 is exactly 9.25" diameter?

I thought about pounding in the differential cover on the transfer case, but it looks like some sort of composite and probably will not bend nicely...

Now I know why no-one converts AWD (and here I thought it was just the wasted range).

Any ideas?
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Jimdear2
Re: Oh-oh - big problem! Which motor will fit?

gdirwin said:
Oh-oh - big problem...

Look at these pictures - top view:


Manual transmission is on the right, AWD transfer case (top) bolts to the transmission, and has a rear drive shaft exiting toward the vehicle rear (not shown).

and side view (zoomed in):



The manual transmission bell housing is plenty wide, but the transfer case (remember, this is AWD with a transverse motor mount) sticks out and really limits how big of a motor can fit.

I was hoping to build a rocket, and maybe use a Warp 11 or Warp 11 HV motor, but this clearly is out of the question. My fallback was to settle for a Warp 9, however even this is questionable.

The Warp 9 diameter is 9.25" - I have just enough room for 4", 19/32, equals 9.1875".

This is too close to call - can anyone confirm that the Warp 9 is exactly 9.25" diameter?

I thought about pounding in the differential cover on the transfer case, but it looks like some sort of composite and probably will not bend nicely...

Now I know why no-one converts AWD (and here I thought it was just the wasted range).

Any ideas?
Click to expand...
A possibilty????
Look into a 1 to 1, or some advantagous ratio (depending on the motor RPM) right angle drive unit. Admittedly heavy but it looks like the only answer for a round motor while keeping the AWD.

Edit; Build an offset gear set into the adapter plate, allowing you to mount the motor parallel with the trans shaft but a few inches forward or above for clearnce.
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E
maybe make a "custom"cover for the diff .you might have 1/2 inch or so of wasted space between the ring gear and the cover.
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K
There are several motors that you can use available from any Netgain dealer.

WarP 7", WarP 8", ImPulse 8", and Advanced DC 8". The Advanced DC is available single or double shafted, but the others are only available double shafted.
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Dave Koller
Curious - how much room have you got from the shaft toward that left wheel well ? Could you come out past that transfer case bump... with a longer shaft and bearing or would you hit the frame? :confused:
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Jimdear2
Dave Koller said:
Curious - how much room have you got from the shaft toward that left wheel well ? Could you come out past that transfer case bump... with a longer shaft and bearing or would you hit the frame? :confused:
Click to expand...
An expansion on Dave's thought . . . Use a modified inner rezzepa type CV joint in your coupler(the thin ones like used on the old VW rabbits and IRS bugs), allowing you to angle the motor away from the diff., this would probably allow an 11 inch motor. Although the extra length of the CV might push an 11 inch's backside into the fenderwell.
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jackbauer
I was looking at a freelander yesterday which has a very similar awd setup. I'd ditch the whole thing and go direct drive to the rear driveshaft. Mabey a transwarp 11? my 2c.
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G
Dave/Jim: There is only 20 3/4 " from the transmission mounting surface to the passenger side frame. The Warp 9 is 20.19" (shaft to shaft), minus 1 or 2" where the shaft enters the bell housing, plus the thickness of the mounting plate - basically it should fit but no extra space for CV joints etc...

Kittydog2 - I only need a 1/16 ", so a custom diff cover is an option...


Jack - direct drive - hmmmm, I have never thought about this option before... Will have to see what the clearance is above the steering rack. I think there are 4 diff ratios in '01 RAV4's, depending on 2WD or 4WD, auto or man, the lowest is 3.12:1, the highest is 4.562:1.


I also thought of using a Kostov 9 motor (diameter 8.66") - anyone have any experience with these?
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Woodsmith
I think the direct drive to the rear axle only would be the easiest to achieve but you would need to work out the drive ratio to get a good motor speed. Also you would need to be reversing the motor for reverse gear.

Off set Gears would be a good engineering solution but to get a small offset you would need small gears.

A right angle drive will be interesting if you can find one that is small and light enough and doesn't mess up your gear ratios.

How about twin motors?
Have two parallel 8" motors coupled together at the tailshaft?
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Jimdear2
gdirwin said:
Dave/Jim: There is only 20 3/4 " from the transmission mounting surface to the passenger side frame. The Warp 9 is 20.19" (shaft to shaft), minus 1 or 2" where the shaft enters the bell housing, plus the thickness of the mounting plate - basically it should fit but no extra space for CV joints etc...

Kittydog2 - I only need a 1/16 ", so a custom diff cover is an option...


Jack - direct drive - hmmmm, I have never thought about this option before... Will have to see what the clearance is above the steering rack. I think there are 4 diff ratios in '01 RAV4's, depending on 2WD or 4WD, auto or man, the lowest is 3.12:1, the highest is 4.562:1.


I also thought of using a Kostov 9 motor (diameter 8.66") - anyone have any experience with these?
Click to expand...
I thought length might be a problem.

If all you need is a 1/16 inch in width, also look in to thinning the motor case in the spot of interferance fit along with a custom diff cover. A little work with a die grinder might make this an easier conversion.

Another thought is convert it back to FWD, that would involve removing the transfer diff. and drive shaft (I would leave the rear axle unless it is IRS and you could pull the rear diff and axles). You replace the transfer case with a cover, extension shaft and bearing, all stock parts.

The Kostov sounds like a nice idea as well.

I'll be interested in the final path.
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R
Garth,

The most appropriate response to the intruding housing is DANG. Moving on...

I understand that you have a couple of priorities for this conversion; that it be quick and that it retain the AWD. If this is the case, Woodsmiths suggestion of running twin 8's should let you do this. The motors would be situated side by side or over and under and connected (chain, belt, gear) by the tailshafts. You would need to confirm how much power and torque the motor shaft can transmit of course. Twin motors would not be as space efficient or as economical as a single 9 or even an 11. I suspect you'll have the space.

RE confirming motor OD...I'm 99% sure the OD on my WarP 9 measured 9.25".

Lots of interesting suggestions. Jimdear2's comment re thinning the motor jacket is likely the easiest, aside from using a smaller diameter motor.

Rob
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Dave Koller
Jimdear2 said:
An expansion on Dave's thought . . . Use a modified inner rezzepa type CV joint in your coupler(the thin ones like used on the old VW rabbits and IRS bugs), allowing you to angle the motor away from the diff., this would probably allow an 11 inch motor. Although the extra length of the CV might push an 11 inch's backside into the fenderwell.
Click to expand...
AND that's what came to me this morning about 4 am lol.. A small drive axle and cut off the cv joint or the race to length and use just enough angle to clear it all... Jimdear you are a mind reader! I was laying there (in bed) and my PTO came "pop" into my mind - hmmmm a short double universal joint arrangement like on my haybine at the farm! I CAN TURN THAT BABY SHARP and ---- well theen the CV joint on my Saturn came to mind - then the hydraulic pump to motor idea - then the differential (locked) from --- well I gotta stop there ---- !:D
Yep IT IS A DIY forum -------- :cool:
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Woodsmith
RKM said:
If this is the case, Woodsmiths suggestion of running twin 8's should let you do this. The motors would be situated side by side or over and under and connected (chain, belt, gear) by the tailshafts. You would need to confirm how much power and torque the motor shaft can transmit of course. Twin motors would not be as space efficient or as economical as a single 9 or even an 11. I suspect you'll have the space.
Click to expand...
Another way to run twin motors would be to have two 8" or 9" motors face to face (one counter rotating) with their shafts on a single toothed belt pulley driving downwards to a pulley on the adaptor plate.
It places the motors above the transmission but the space left below could be used for batteries or controller.
Have a look at this thread on twin motors.

Another way to do this would be to have a motor in the conventional place but to have a pulley in the adaptor plate coupling to a matching motor above and so the drive load will be on the driving shaft rather then the tail shaft. The smaller motors would be shorter allowing the space to do this.
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Dave Koller
Back at work here - (yes we are open Sundays!) - say you used the CV or similar joint - could you not angle UP as well giving LOTS of room for a single BIG motor? :confused:
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Woodsmith
Another thing that may affect how you add a motor that won't otherwise fit is whether or not you are planning on keeping the flywheel and clutch.

If no flywheel/clutch then you can use the space in the bell housing for the gears, pulleys, cv joints or what ever you feel is the best option for you.
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