# 3 phase 15 hp ac.motor work?

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Would a weinman ac 3 phase 15 HP work for a conversion? (using about 3000 lb vehicle)
Volts 208-230/460 DUTY: CONT rpm 3485 hz 60 fl amp 41.9-36.9/18.45 alternate tasting 46.0/23.0 amps max at 190/380 v

If so special mods? what would a possible approximate top speed be?

Thanks for any tips!!

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I assume this is a DC motor. But can somebody explain if this would be a good motor for my first run? 24 V but it says 578 hp! Is this accurate?

24V 2000rpm 26amp 578 hp

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#### major

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I assume this is a DC motor. But can somebody explain if this would be a good motor for my first run? 24 V but it says 578 hp! Is this accurate?

24V 2000rpm 26amp 578 hp

Do the math. 24V times 26A = 624 Watts. One hp = 745W. Maybe it is 0.578hp.

What you're looking at is a PM DC motor likely used for power steering pump. You obviously saw my post http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=306891&postcount=2 I suggest you follow that advice.

Regards,

major

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Lol. ...i learned something new. I'm glad you think my name is ade ....that way nobody knows who i really an when i make those kind of mistakes

#### PStechPaul

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I assume this is a DC motor. But can somebody explain if this would be a good motor for my first run? 24 V but it says 578 hp! Is this accurate?

24V 2000rpm 26amp 578 hp
No, that can't be. 24*26=624W. I think it is actually 5/8 HP, which is 469W, with an efficiency of 75%. This motor might work on a small tractor, or as an experimental load for a controller, or as a learning tool if you take it apart and see how it is constructed. But it would not be any better at moving a car than a starter motor.

Since you are still learning, you probably need to either have someone put together a kit for you, or start with basics and get some experience by trying a small EV build like a tractor or golf cart. And you should take some tutorials and do a lot of studying of basic electrical principles.

I have over 45 years experience and education in electronics and electrical power, and I still have much to learn about motors and controllers. Even before my formal education and industrial experience, I tinkered with electronics and mechanical contraptions.

Here is a friend operating a robot I made in 1960. And it has a motor and battery in it and the wheels make it go forward and reverse as selected by the hand-held control panel. I also built the shack in the background:

And this is me on a "racer" that some of us kids built. No motor, no brakes! We wore work boots and dragged our feet to stop! Later I built a racer out of steel, with an actual steering wheel and linkages to both front wheels. But I don't have any pictures. I gave it away to a friend and he said their father put a motor in it and made a go-cart but then he backed over it in the driveway and destroyed it. But I learned a lot build ing it, and many other projects, by the time I went to high school!

So, I know you are excited to dive into an EV conversion, but you really need some solid grasp of electrical fundamantals and some experience with smaller projects, if you really want to learn and not just have someone do it for you and hand over the keys so you're good to go!

#### Dennis

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PStechPaul, A larger pole count AC induction motor has no advantage over a lower pole count motor other than speed is reduced which means less gearing is required. A typical NEMA design B, 3600 RPM motor and a NEMA design B, 1800 RPM 3-phase motor of the same horsepower, will have identical performance; it is just that the torque of the the 1800 RPM 4-pole motor in this example would have double the torque.

#### PStechPaul

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PStechPaul, A larger pole count AC induction motor has no advantage over a lower pole count motor other than speed is reduced which means less gearing is required. A typical NEMA design B, 3600 RPM motor and a NEMA design B, 1800 RPM 3-phase motor of the same horsepower, will have identical performance; it is just that the torque of the the 1800 RPM 4-pole motor in this example would have double the torque.
I have found that higher pole count motors of the same frame size have more torque but lower HP. I have three motors, each about the same size, and the 2 pole motor is 2HP, the 4 pole is 1.5HP, and the 8 pole is 1HP. But I think there is less difference for larger motors, such as 20HP and higher. I think this is because there are more slots in the stator and it can be wound more efficiently.

But my point is that, if you want to overclock a motor to get more HP, especially when replacing an existing ICE engine, you don't want to have a shaft speed much above 3600 RPM, which corresponds to a safe and reasonable cruising speed in all gears. Also, motor bearings and other construction aspects are designed for the rated RPM, but I think most bearings will work well up to 3600 RPM. So, you can overclock a 4 pole or 8 pole motor and get higher safe speeds and more HP, and keep the rated torque by following the V/F curve. And without actually rewinding a motor, the best you can do is rewire from star to delta so a 240/480 motor can be about 140/280. So with a 720V DC bus you can get 500 VAC which means you can get a 3.6x boost. A 4 pole motor would run at 6480 RPM, which is still within an ICE redline range, and probably safe. An 8 pole motor would run at 3240 RPM, which may be safe for continuous use. And also remember that you can get an additional 2-3 times rated torque for short bursts, so you might be able to get peak HP of 7x rating for a 3 phase induction motor. But don't count on it for more than a few seconds.

#### Dennis

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But my point is that, if you want to overclock a motor to get more HP, especially when replacing an existing ICE engine, you don't want to have a shaft speed much above 3600 RPM, which corresponds to a safe and reasonable cruising speed in all gears. Also, motor bearings and other construction aspects are designed for the rated RPM, but I think most bearings will work well up to 3600 RPM. So, you can overclock a 4 pole or 8 pole motor and get higher safe speeds and more HP, and keep the rated torque by following the V/F curve. And without actually rewinding a motor, the best you can do is rewire from star to delta so a 240/480 motor can be about 140/280. So with a 720V DC bus you can get 500 VAC which means you can get a 3.6x boost. A 4 pole motor would run at 6480 RPM, which is still within an ICE redline range, and probably safe. An 8 pole motor would run at 3240 RPM, which may be safe for continuous use. And also remember that you can get an additional 2-3 times rated torque for short bursts, so you might be able to get peak HP of 7x rating for a 3 phase induction motor. But don't count on it for more than a few seconds.
Horsepower tracks closely with torque in AC induction motors that have breakdown torque in which you are referring when you say 2-3 times the full load torque. The speed variance is around 7% or less for a NEMA Design B motor from full load to overload to the maximum breakdown torque point. So the horsepower will also be about 2-3 times the full load HP rating since speed drop is very minimal.

In VFD applications we are told the safe motor speed limit is 5,000 RPM from various manufacturers of industrial 3-phase motors. I never seen any speed higher as a safe limit. Though I am sure it can be done.

#### mizlplix

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5000 RPM on my AC 50 motor is kind of scary sounding. 7000 RPM was just flat insane.

#### Freeridets

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Sorry for reviving an old topic, but why you only can overclock a 4 pole motor and not a 2 pole?

Best regards!

I am still concerned that a 15 HP standard motor will be insufficient for hilly terrain and safe road speeds and acceleration. Most people say that 40 HP is about right for a small EV. If you don't use the power, a larger motor won't cut your efficiency and it might even be better. It's a lot of work to adapt and install a motor and get all the controls working properly, and the cost of labor is about the same for any motor. But if you have to do it over, you lose the original cost of the smaller motor plus another round of R&R and fitting and wiring.

Here is a 50 HP motor for \$450 with free shipping:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Ele...116?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a74d2fb4c

A 30 HP premium efficient 3600 RPM motor for \$500:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BALDOR-RELI...105?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebe0e8499

An older 50HP 1500 RPM motor for \$325:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/U-S-ELECTRI...471?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c64df95af

If you get a 4 pole motor (1700-1800 RPM), you might be able to connect it for 240 and overclock it to 120 Hz and 480V and get twice the HP. You really can't do that with a two pole motor.

Of course if you rewind it you can change things, but it's expensive and risky if you don't know what you're doing.

Good luck!

#### major

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Sorry for reviving an old topic, but why you only can overclock a 4 pole motor and not a 2 pole?
If you get a 4 pole motor (1700-1800 RPM), you might be able to connect it for 240 and overclock it to 120 Hz and 480V and get twice the HP. You really can't do that with a two pole motor.
I suppose your question is directed to Paul's comment. Haven't seen him here much lately. But a 2-pole motor would do about 7200RPM at 120Hz. Guess I don't see a problem, necessarily, with that but maybe Paul does.

Regards,

major

#### PStechPaul

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AFAIK, many motor bearings, or the rotor or fan, may be rated about 5000-6000 RPM maximum, so 7200 RPM may be problematic and unsafe. If you are replacing an ICE in a vehicle with the usual transmission and differential, 3600 RPM is a pretty comfortable speed for most driving needs, so I think it's better to use a 4 pole motor overclocked to 2x, with twice the torque of a similar size 2 pole motor. You can still overclock it to 3x and even 4x, with field weakening, to get higher top speed. This mostly applies to using industrial 3 phase motors, and not specially designed motors for EVS, which can safely run at 7200 RPM and even much faster. Then you may also need to consider the transmission, which is designed for continuous use at 2000-4000 RPM input.

Ball bearing speed ratings (generally 10,000 RPM or more, up to about 1-1/2" shaft):