[ZSharpell]

Hey Everyone,

I am working on a test vehicle for a startup company, and I would like to know of suppliers (other than Tesla) for 3-phase AC induction motors operating from 300+ Volt sources. Our development pack has a nominal voltage of ~350 V, but I have only been able to find motors and corresponding controllers for 144 V (max) systems.

Thank you in advance for your help!

 

[Jayls5]

Hey Everyone,

I am working on a test vehicle for a startup company, and I would like to know of suppliers (other than Tesla) for 3-phase AC induction motors operating from 300+ Volt sources. Our development pack has a nominal voltage of ~350 V, but I have only been able to find motors and corresponding controllers for 144 V (max) systems.

Thank you in advance for your help!

I think you're generally going to be limited to OEM motor controllers, which I hear is difficult. The cheapest rig i've seen to experiment with is this:

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...ucts_id=364&osCsid=366k11884b8sjd0v3d26duesf1

That's motor+controller+Dc/dc all in one.

It's too low of a nominal voltage, so a pack redesign would be necessary on top of figuring out how to override the OEM controller firmware to make it run. It's smarts vs money

 

[jhuebner]

You could take the industrial route: Lenze MFEMAXX ([email protected] star) and industrial VFD or custom VFD.

 

[Hollie Maea]

Siemens makes induction motors up to 700V, if your startup has enough clout to get them to sell some to you.

As far as controllers are concerned, Rinehart Motion Systems is a good choice.

 

[Frank]

Remy, Parker

 

[Coulomb]

350 VDC probably translates to around 240 V phase to phase. For a test motor, any industrial motor should work. Japan has the lowest mains voltage in the world (100 V phase to neutral, so 173 V phase to phase), so either Japanese motors or motors made for the Japanese market would be a good place to start. The challenge will be finding a high enough continuous power rating (say 26 kW) in a small enough frame (say 132 frame, I don't know what that would be called in the USA).

For a Miata conversion I was involved with, we ordered a high density model from ABB. Even though it was from a catalogue, it was not a stocked item, and took months to be manufactured and delivered. It works very well, however.

 

[ZSharpell]

Thank you for the help! I will contact Siemens to see if we would be able to work something out. In general, if we were to get a motor capable of a 100-200 kW output, could I find an appropriate motor controller to use with the 350 V input?

Also, similar to how a DC motor can be overvolted (to a point) as long as it is kept cool, can something be done with an AC motor that usually uses 100 V and up to 600 A of input power? I am not sure if AC motor design varies for high voltage inputs versus high amperage input.

 

[Frank]

http://www.rinehartmotion.com/ PM100DX


DC motors are like dinosaurs compared to A.C. A.C. input/output parameters are much more controlled. A.C. controllers have a lot more silicon in them and are typically more sophisticated (and expensive); you can't stray outside of design parameters. Same with motors, I don't think you can fool them but typically you don't have to. Ex. Remy HVH250-090D will work at 700V/600A RMS.

 

[piotrsko]

Motors are easy. You can overclock a motor until something gets too hot then fails. If it doesn't get hot or lose lubrication.....

3 phase high voltage high current controllers are tough to get or are generally expensive for either plug n play Or homebrew. Go to digikey and price 1200 v high amp h bridge igbts X 3.

 

[nucleus]

Motors are easy. You can overclock a motor until something gets too hot then fails. If it doesn't get hot or lose lubrication.....

3 phase high voltage high current controllers are tough to get or are generally expensive for either plug n play Or homebrew. Go to digikey and price 1200 v high amp h bridge igbts X 3.

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/docs/pm800hsa120.pdf

 

[piotrsko]

Half bridge? you need 6 of them. Not actually the point, but close enough.

 

[ZSharpell]

So I found used Remy HVH250-115s on Ebay for a little under $2000. I am slightly hesitant about that price because I saw new motors (same model) for $5000. Here is the link to the used motor and new motor.

What does everyone recommend? Go for it or pass it up?

 

[jhuebner]

My opinion: not much can break on an electric motor.

I'd go for the used one.

 

[Frank]

I think the new one is a -090 i.e. shorter stack. I would try to get a pic of the nameplate on the used one.

 

[ZSharpell]

There is also the HVH250-115 rated for up to 700 Volts but only 300 Amps. I am leaning toward the 350 Volt rated motor being that our pack is ~350 VDC nominal. When the pack is completely full there would be a max of 394 VDC at the pack terminals. Should I go with the 700 Volt rated motor to be safe?

From what I have read on the Remy site, the voltage rating on the nameplate is VDC going into the motor controller and inverter.

 

[oudevolvo]

Do you really need a 300V+ motor?
Would the Siemens 1PV5135 not be an option?
http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=1PV5135
The motor itself can handle up until 300V but if you use the DMOC 645 the controller will take care of that. http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=DMOC645 That controller itself can handle up until 400V and therefore will match your nominal pack voltage.

 

[Frank]

Here's some more info on the Remy I dug up: https://www.remyinc.com/Documents/Hybrid/REM-71-HVH250_115_DataSht_12LoRez.aspx

My experience is with the 250-090. The SOM is wound differently and yields higher torque at a lower RPM (might be better for a street vehicle) although these graphs indicate torque is the same. The DOM can take more amps and can carry it out higher in the RPM band for more power. Here's another document to peruse: http://www.remyinc.com/docs/HVH250_r3_Sept_2010.pdf

I'm not sure I believe the torque curves in the first chart but the power curves are consistent with my experience with the -090. I'll let you do more digging into it.

Controller and transmission should be part of your consideration as well.

Good luck and happy new year!

 

[jhuebner]

There is also the HVH250-115 rated for up to 700 Volts but only 300 Amps. I am leaning toward the 350 Volt rated motor being that our pack is ~350 VDC nominal. When the pack is completely full there would be a max of 394 VDC at the pack terminals. Should I go with the 700 Volt rated motor to be safe?

Sounds perfectly matched to me. The insulation will not fail at a few volts above rating.

 

[ZSharpell]

Do you really need a 300V+ motor?
Would the Siemens 1PV5135 not be an option?
http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=1PV5135
The motor itself can handle up until 300V but if you use the DMOC 645 the controller will take care of that. http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=DMOC645 That controller itself can handle up until 400V and therefore will match your nominal pack voltage.

The main reason I was going for a 300 VDC motor is due to our battery pack design, which is 345.6 VDC nominal. The Siemens 1PV5135 looks like a well built motor, and I did some reading up on it. It seems a little weird that the nameplate states 215 V, but maybe that's after the inverter?

The DMOC645 controller is a great price, compared to the Rinehart PM100 and PM150, but I read about quite a few difficulties for the DMOC (thread here). It seems like the Rinehart is more versatile, but that comes at a price ($3,495 vs. $5,200).

 

[ZSharpell]

Here's some more info on the Remy I dug up: https://www.remyinc.com/Documents/Hybrid/REM-71-HVH250_115_DataSht_12LoRez.aspx

My experience is with the 250-090. The SOM is wound differently and yields higher torque at a lower RPM (might be better for a street vehicle) although these graphs indicate torque is the same. The DOM can take more amps and can carry it out higher in the RPM band for more power. Here's another document to peruse: http://www.remyinc.com/docs/HVH250_r3_Sept_2010.pdf

I'm not sure I believe the torque curves in the first chart but the power curves are consistent with my experience with the -090. I'll let you do more digging into it.

Controller and transmission should be part of your consideration as well.

Good luck and happy new year!

Thank you for those links!

As far as the controller goes, the Rinehart PM150 DX seems to be a good option. We will be just under 400 VDC max and will not exceed 400 Amps from the battery pack. A new Rinehart is $7,800 (EVWest), which is a substantial amount, but I've read good things about it. Any other controllers that would be suitable for that kind of input?

For the test bed vehicle we are using a single gear reduction, likely with a gearing ratio between 8:1 and 10:1. Once we solidify the motor choice, we will be able to pinpoint a final ratio. This isn't going to be a road legal test vehicle; rather, a benchmark for our own powertrain and control systems.