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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
You do not need a BMS for a 4S system. Would be complete waste of money as is using lithium in your application.
I can see the logic in not using a BMS in a 4S system but it would be easy and ensure pack stays balanced. A BMS that small is cheap.

I respectfully disagree that lithium is a waste of money for a RV house battery. To get the same 400AH capacity, you would need almost 800Ah in FLA and deal with the off gassing, maintenance and smell. I won't even get into the space required for a 800AH FLA 12v system.
 

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If you treat LFP well, it will last for decades.

In the long run cheaper than good deep cycling lead.

No dropping acceptance rate as SoC climbs, no need to get to Full, little voltage sag at high currents, all are pretty compelling.

But if you murder the bank - which is not hard for noobs - you are a **lot** more out of pocket.
 

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You do not need a BMS for a 4S system. Would be complete waste of money as is using lithium in your application.
It's the same problem as with 96S, just in a smaller scale. Even a single lithium cell needs to be protected from undercharging and overcharging, and even in four cells one can get out of balance. Are you suggesting four voltmeters and manual monitoring? Keep in mind that in an RV there is no driver watching gauges while the battery is being discharged.

As for lithium being a "complete waste of money", the set of four to six GC2 lead-acid batteries which would be the alternative (depending on how much of the battery's capacity that you judge to be usable) is very heavy, and that is a concern for small RVs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I contacted a distributor for CALB. They informed me the CALB 400AH cells were discontinued.

GBS 400AH cells are only available direct from China, USA distributors don't stock them.

Any other options for 400AH cells? I don't want to parallel cells to keep it simple.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Correct, I do NOT know reliable source from China. I see cheap prices but when you request quote they either can't support you or DOUBLE the price to cover "fees".

Do Winston cells have a reliable source? I suspect they are more expensive...

1000AH? I'd love 4 of those bad boys. $$$$$
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I have yet to find the rumored $0.85/ Ah except for the very questionable direct from China sites (Alibaba, Ali Express, etc...).

I have found 400AH cells for $1.24/ Ah plus shipping and will probably go with that if prices don't come down.

For the gotta have the biggest folks, Winston has 700Ah cells for the same $1.24/Ah and mighty HUGE 1000Ah cells for even cheaper, $1.19/Ah. Both plus shipping.
 

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No way bare cell prices coming down, not from quality makers.

Anything much cheaper will be factory seconds or even counterfeit scams.

An improved high-volume supply chain will just mean a bit cheaper shipping costs and added value like higher trust levels, native-English CS, local warranty returns, matched capacity or even pre-balanced sets etc without paying a lot more.

Which would of course be fantastic.

Now, quality high-current "open hardware" BMS at nominal 12V, that would be a likely place to see prices drop so DIY can have the same protections as say a Victron or Lithionics system without being an engineer reinventing the wheel every time.

Anyone know who makes those BatterySpace prismatics?
 

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I can see the logic in not using a BMS in a 4S system but it would be easy and ensure pack stays balanced. A BMS that small is cheap.
The BMS will never turn on, last thing you want to do is fully charge a Lithium battery which is required for a BMS to even turn itself on. Just float them at 13.8 volts. and set your Inverter to trip off-line at 11.5 volts.

I respectfully disagree that lithium is a waste of money for a RV house battery. To get the same 400AH capacity, you would need almost 800Ah in FLA and deal with the off gassing, maintenance and smell. I won't even get into the space required for a 800AH FLA 12v system.
I have no clue where you came up with that? A good higher end FLA like a Trojan Industrial or a Rolls 4000 or 5000 series has the exact same usable capacity of 80% capacity. However will live a lot longer than any Lithium battery. You would have to be pretty gullible to think otherwise. CALB, Winston, GBS if you could get a Chi-Com manufacture to honor a 1 year warranty tells you how long they will last. Trojan Industrial has a 10 year warranty with first 3 years full replacement plus 7 years prorated for 10 year total. Rolls 4000 and 5000 same 10 year warranty Trojan offers. Either cost 1/3 what Lithium cost and will last 5 times longer.

In the last 8 years I have done about 100 Off-Grid Solar Solar Systems where the client insisted on using CALB and GBS batteries in 24 and 48 volt configurations up to 1000 AH. All have been replaced with Lead Acid because the Chi-Com cells just do not last. None of them over discharged or over charged. They just loose capacity and internal resistance goes way up in a year or less. That is why DIY EV guys no longer use Chi-Coms.
 

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A good higher end FLA like a Trojan Industrial or a Rolls 4000 or 5000 series has the exact same usable capacity of 80% capacity.
The general public's rule-of-thumb is to not discharge lead-acid batteries below 50% SOC. There's nothing magic about this level, but it looks reasonable given the shape of the cycle life versus discharge level curve, and even Trojan quotes cycle life at this level (3600 cycles at 50% discharge). What most people miss is that even if discharging to 80% depth of discharge (20% SOC), expected life is still substantial, if only half as long as at 50% (the same Trojan with 3600 cycles @ 50% is rated for 2000 cycles @ 80%). In an RV, how many years does it take to cycle the batteries two thousand times?

(from Trojan's Solar Industrial Line Flooded product page)

How many cycles are the LiFePO4 cells expected to last?

... set your Inverter to trip off-line at 11.5 volts.
I think some of the reason for caution in deeply discharging lead-acid batteries is that they are routinely used (particularly in RVs) with no system protecting against accidental excessive discharge. An automatic shutoff is typically considered necessary with lithium, and would be wise for anyone pushing the limits of even lead-acid batteries. However, this is not just about an inverter: an RV typically uses 12 V DC power for lighting, ventilation, the furnace fan, controls for all appliances (furnace, water heater, refrigerator), and pumping water... so the protective shutdown (or at least a warning) should be for all loads, not just the inverter and whatever it powers.
 

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Not quite $0.85 per amp hour but the cells we have are about $0.875 per amp hour now on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-8-p...377409?hash=item2ab7fc1501:g:NAcAAOSwaB5Xtx0m

We use 16 of these, they have provided us good service for approximately 3 years, they have been discharged to 20% many times with no noticeable decrease in capacity and they power everything including the air conditioning (for about 2 hr continuously) on our Roadtrek.

Yes it was painful to series-parallel them and you will not get 400 amp hours out of 16, but they actually fit the space that we had extremely well.

The seller provided extra tie straps upon request which made it a lot easier to do the series paralleling.

BTW, if you plan on camping in colder temperatures definitely either heat the batteries or place them in your heated area. I learned this the hard way in 2 builds and had to add extra heat for both.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
The BMS will never turn on, last thing you want to do is fully charge a Lithium battery which is required for a BMS to even turn itself on. Just float them at 13.8 volts. and set your Inverter to trip off-line at 11.5 volts. .
That's exactly what I was thinking for a non-BMS 4S pack. Seems to work well for others.





I respectfully disagree that lithium is a waste of money for a RV house battery. To get the same 400AH capacity, you would need almost 800Ah in FLA and deal with the off gassing, maintenance and smell.
I have no clue where you came up with that?

You disagree that FLA's have off-gassing, maintenance and smells? :)
You can't argue that discharging past 50% will shorten the life of a FLA.




A good higher end FLA like a Trojan Industrial or a Rolls 4000 or 5000 series has the exact same usable capacity of 80% capacity. However will live a lot longer than any Lithium battery.

I just saw the Rolls have a 7 year warranty, that is very impressive. I haven't heard of them till now. I have experience in traditional Trojan 12v FLA and they only provide ~3 years service in golf carts.

While FLA are proven technology, I'd much rather prefer a sealed battery in my camper. I see Trojan has high capacity 250Ah 12v AGM's but they only have a 1 year warranty. Any thoughts on a quality AGM with at least 250Ah size and a great warranty? I could parallel two for a 500Ah pack in the future.
 

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You disagree that FLA's have off-gassing, maintenance and smells? :)
It your batteries are gassing excesively would tell you the voltage is set too high



You can't argue that discharging past 50% will shorten the life of a FLA.
I never said anything otherwise now did I? What I said is both have the same usable capacity at 80% DOD. At 80% DOD, which would be a very rare event unless the owner is DIY and clueless, Trojan Industrial line still has twice the cycle and calendar life than Chi-Com LiFeP04.


I have designed around 50 RV systems for Tree Huggers that want to use solar, and some who listen and use other means of recharging. You size the battery for 3-day run time which is easy.This gives you 2-day Run Time with no sun or driving to recharge. Only a fool would size their battery for 1-day Run time. FWIW a fixed off-grid system uses 5 day reserve capacity to get that 20% DOD for maximum cycle life. Yes I get questioned about only using a 3-day reserve on RV's, but here is the deal, it is no big deal. A home system is used every stinking day, but not an RV which is part time use, and the batteries will last longer than stationary systems.



As for charging, well that is easy. Yep some people think solar will work, wrong. How many people are stupid enough to park their RV where in full sun with no shade issues from sun rise to sunset? Seen lots of folks spend a few thousand dollars on solar to charge their batteries with solar only to find out they still need a generator or shore power. Smart money is use a small wattage solar system as supplement, but rely on a $75 Electronic Battery Isolator and use the engine alternator to do the heavy lifting and charging. If they are parked more then two days will use a generator and charger.




I just saw the Rolls have a 7 year warranty, that is very impressive. I haven't heard of them till now. I have experience in traditional Trojan 12v FLA and they only provide ~3 years service in golf carts.
Rolls is to Rail Road and Marine as Trojan is to Golf Cart and Floor Sweeper machines. They have been around a long long time. The 5000 series carries 10 year warranty. Both Trojan and Rolls are 100% made in the USA.


You are right golf cart batteries last about 3 years as designed. Golf courses do not own golf carts, they lease them with 3 year contracts. But you are talking Trojan entry level Signature Series, not the Premium or Industrial lines.






While FLA are proven technology, I'd much rather prefer a sealed battery in my camper. I see Trojan has high capacity 250Ah 12v AGM's but they only have a 1 year warranty. Any thoughts on a quality AGM with at least 250Ah size and a great warranty? I could parallel two for a 500Ah pack in the future.

AGM has its place, a niche application place you really need to justify for the added expense. AGM cost twice as much and only last half as long as FLA. So in the end you are talking 400% higher cost. You would be better off using a decent LFP battery. AGM is great for locations:


1. Unusual installation orientation like on their side.
2. Where very high charge and discharge rates will be encountered.
3. Spills cannot be tolerate like aircraft for which AGM was invented for.
4. Extreme cold of -40 and lower.


Sounds like you might be stuck inside a 12 volt toy box. Last thing in the world you want to do is install Pb batteries in parallel. Guaranteed to cut cycle life in half. That is why battery manufactures suggest parallel installations. Smart money is if you need 500 AH, then buy 500 AH batteries. They will not be 12 volts, they will be 6 or 4 volt batteries wired in series. Say a pair of Rolls S-550 or Trojan SIND-06-610. Both Trojan and Rolls have had their batteries tested by 3rd party testing agency and put through IEC 61427 an real world cycle life test very few manufactures would ever make available to the public because it would make them look very bad. IEC61427 on Trojan Industrial Line-Up is 17 year cycle life and Rolls 5000 series to be at 15 years.
 

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Not quite $0.85 per amp hour but the cells we have are about $0.875 per amp hour now on eBay:
Completely meaningless.You do NOT PRICE BATTERIES based on AH because it tells you NOTHING. Your base battery cost on Watt Hour Capacity.

Which battery cost less?

1. LFP 100 AH cell = $125
2. LMO 100 AH cell = $140

By your logic the LFP cell is less expensive and is dead wrong. The LMO cell is less expensive.

Battery Watt Hour Capacity = Nominal Voltage x Amp Hours

100 AH LFP = 3.2 volts x 100 AH = 320 Watt Hours for 39-cents per WH.
100 AH LMO = 3.8 volts x 100 AH = 380 Watt Hours for 37-cents per WH.
 

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You can't argue that discharging past 50% will shorten the life of a FLA.
It's as if we didn't already have this discussion...

There's nothing special about the 50% DoD (Depth of Discharge) or SoC (State of Charge) level. Did you look at that graph in post #34? The trade-off between life (in cycles) and depth of discharge is a continuous function - you can pick any DoD for which you are willing to live with the cycle life.
 
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