[electro wrks]

It's quite inconceivable to me that Tesla would not make it reasonably easy to replace the battery box. Enough people are going to brick their batteries, or otherwise destroy them during the warranty period, to make this necessary. Removal is probably 1 to 2 hours of removing interior parts, mounting bolts, disconnecting plugs(like you write) and running a cut-out wire through the perimeter seal.

Looking at the latest Monroe and Associates vid, it seems the battery pack removal is even easier than this:

I don't believe the uninformed and unimaginative among us realize just how revolutionary this structural battery pack design really is. As Musk has recently tweeted, other interesting applications of a structural pack are also possible. Any design ideas?

 

[remy_martian]

The original scuttlebutt on the structural battery was that it was a gigacasting.

Mounting seats and a console on top of a battery pack is meh, despite Musk's hype.

I'll wait until they crack it open before I judge it as "revolutionary" or not.

 

[electro wrks]

Some revolutionary aspects of this removable floor/structural pack come to mind. On the assembly line, the workers can stand in the open floor space to attach the head liner and most of the interior parts. This is a much more ergonomic and efficient way of attaching these parts. It involves much less crawling around on hands and knees to finish the interior. I'm impressed with the sliding center console. When I first saw the seat/ protruding console/ battery pack assembly, I thought they would need to tip it up in the front to install the assembly. Instead, the console slides back on rails temporarily and the assemble goes straight up. Nice detail.

If the full strength and stiffness of the honeycomb like structural battery pack in torsion, laterally, and longitudinally is utilized, the rest of the vehicle's structure could potentially be made lighter. The vehicle's structure could be optimized for crash and roll over protection.

If the pack is built in a honeycomb like structure, as advertised, the top and bottom covers will be heavily bonded to the top and bottom ends of the 4680 cells. Solvents and/or heat may be required to remove the covers. Let's hope the cells aren't damaged in the process. Monroe wants to sell the cells to OEM clients and the public (if they can afford it) for what- $800? a piece!

 

[remy_martian]

Metal pack top and bottom can't be bonded to the cells or it'll be a 1s800p pack 😂 It has to be bonded to the honeycomb holding the cells.

Which begs the question of how the electrical connections are made and isolated and how they isolate the cells thermally, and how they cool them.

I'm interested in the pack guts, not seats and consoles which saves one or two robot ingress/egress cycles with an assembly.

Musk keeps INCREASING the price on his $35k car, and the $25k car is nowhere to be seen - I think someone stepped in some bovine excrement somewhere and now they're paying for "being German" (engineering things too complicated).

So.... grabbing 🍿🥤 for Friday.

ps Munro knows the Tesla fanboys are frothing at the mouth for this "advanced tech" cell, and a purchase order is a purchase order for the big dogs, so, yeah...$800 for a helluva vape pen battery.

 

[electro wrks]

There will have to be some kind of electrically isolating structure between the ends of the cells and the covers. My designer mind envisions a plastic grid that also holds the conductors, and has pins to keep the cells separated. It would have to be as open as possible to allow the maximum of bonding contact between the cells and the covers with an epoxy and/or intumescent glue. Musk says in a tweet, as I recall, that the design for the battery box was still evolving.

What does our resident crotchety burned-out old engineer and forum takeover artist think the design will look like? Meh meh meh meh...

 

[remy_martian]

I'm waiting to see what they did.

Having three Teslas here, I know how idiotic they are for serviceability & repair (who pulls glued in glass out to get at the door/hatch hinge bolts to adjust panel gaps, but Tesla?).

With no apparent adult supervision on Model S and Model X that I've seen, it means it's open season on approach, which I'm looking forward to seeing.

Of course, nobody's modules are exactly serviceable at the cell level, so maybe I'm being a bit harsh at them killing modules altogether to where the pack vs a module has to be changed out if there's a cell fault.

Burn out, eh? Something tells me I need to be hurt and take that seriously.

 

[electro wrks]

If the pack is built in a honeycomb like structure, as advertised, the top and bottom covers will be heavily bonded to the top and bottom ends of the 4680 cells. Solvents and/or heat may be required to remove the covers. Let's hope the cells aren't damaged in the process. Monroe wants to sell the cells to OEM clients and the public (if they can afford it) for what- $800? a piece!

As predicted, the cells are heavily bonded to the top and bottom covers:

 

[remy_martian]

Strange that they have four contactors...

 

[piotrsko]

Strange that they have four contactors...

Once again, no responsible adult supervision, with my added caveat: computer geeks don't design and assemble cars well. Otoh, car designers are horrid computer geeks.

Shouldn't have to adjust the panel gaps after the window is glued in unless you crash.

 

[remy_martian]

Judging by the BOM, it looks to me like a lot of their car designers were poached from German automakers....ones with just enough experience to be dangerous. Over 30 is a geezer in Silicon Valley...

 

[brian_]

The still image shows the four terminal studs which are mentioned in the video. As the video says, this feature is the same as the original Model 3 / Model Y design, in which each of the four modules has a vertical stud protruding into the penthouse; the other terminal for each module is at the front. Those four modules are connected in series: the end terminals are the outer studs at the rear, the outer modules are linked to the inner modules at the front, and the inner modules are connected to each other by the studs. There is no need for anything except a connecting bar between those inner module studs, but I suppose there could be a service disconnect between them, since it is up in the penthouse. How all of the studs are connected is probably in SuperfastMatt's YouTube video about using the Model 3 modules and penthouse in a repackaged form in his Jaguar.

My guess is that the overall layout of the "structural" pack with 4680 cells is essentially the same as the original pack, but with the four groups of cells instead of separate modules. Of course many details have changed: larger cells, so fewer in each group, for a start... and of course it's all stuck together.

 

[electro wrks]

Some revolutionary aspects of this removable floor/structural pack come to mind. On the assembly line, the workers can stand in the open floor space to attach the head liner and most of the interior parts. This is a much more ergonomic and efficient way of attaching these parts. It involves much less crawling around on hands and knees to finish the interior. I'm impressed with the sliding center console. When I first saw the seat/ protruding console/ battery pack assembly, I thought they would need to tip it up in the front to install the assembly. Instead, the console slides back on rails temporarily and the assemble goes straight up. Nice detail.

If the full strength and stiffness of the honeycomb like structural battery pack in torsion, laterally, and longitudinally is utilized, the rest of the vehicle's structure could potentially be made lighter. The vehicle's structure could be optimized for crash and roll over protection.

If the pack is built in a honeycomb like structure, as advertised, the top and bottom covers will be heavily bonded to the top and bottom ends of the 4680 cells. Solvents and/or heat may be required to remove the covers. Let's hope the cells aren't damaged in the process. Monroe wants to sell the cells to OEM clients and the public (if they can afford it) for what- $800? a piece!

Confirmation of these revolutionary design details are at least initially discussed in this video starting ~ 29:00

 

[electro wrks]

Also in this video is a discussion about, for lack of a better term, flaky info on battery energy densities and vehicle ranges. Tesla's claims in this area seem to be all over the place and maybe based more on economics and politics, than actual battery capacity. There might be, as discussed in the video, better battery performance through improved chemistry than was previously revealed.

We'll soon find out. If it is the case, it augurs well for the Semi and other vehicles that from the start seemed to have inflated range figures.

 

[remy_martian]

Still waiting for that dry chemistry-set they bought from Maxwell.

Musk is all about his stock options...no more, "go ahead and use my company's patents", lol.

Two years ago you were a fool for not buying a Tesla -- becuz autopilot can enable your Tesla to give paying taxi rides to hookers and vomiting college kids while you sleep. 😂

Grabbing a 🍿🥤 and watching the BS & truth unfold.

"structural battery" so far = "moar goo"...a cell repurposing disaster from the former Mr Green Mobility. If he wasn't in the battery selling business for Panasonic, he'd apply glue to the gigacasting honeycomb, only...

 

[remy_martian]

Looking at the latest Munro video where they pull the cell apart,

there is no way they can go to a pouch cell or a smaller diameter one - the dry coating has a large bend radius, which I think is the main reason for all the tabs....it's NOT thermal, as Elon has BS'd, but electrical continuity because of the dry coating cracking during rolling it up to put into the casing.

He tried making his own batteries, but Panasonic is now riding over the hill in a white hat to make this poopshow manufacturable.

Funny how the structural battery cheerleaders have gone silent. Damaging the gigacastings totals the car, cells are not easily extracted - that means insurance rates are going to get jacked up. Tesla anticipated this, and is offering its own insurance.

It's a cost reduction that lines Elon's pockets - if they can get it to yield functional cells, but could be darned expensive for owners of these abominations.

 

[kennybobby]

...

Of course, nobody's modules are exactly serviceable at the cell level, so maybe I'm being a bit harsh at them killing modules altogether to where the pack vs a module has to be changed out if there's a cell fault.

Well except for the Mitsubishi iMiev modules. The pack cover is bolted together and sealed with a rubber gasket, the cells are bolted together and an individual cell can easily be extracted and replaced. It was absolutely designed to be servicable. The problem is there is no source for new cells from Yuasa or Mits (now owned by dunderhead Nissan who killed it off).

 

[joekitch]

the worst part about these non-serviceable designs is it gives all the FUD people tons of ammo to attack EVs with

on other cars, you replace one module after then ten year mark or something, maybe more like 15, and the pack is fine

here ? a few bad batteries spoil the bunch and they're a BITCH to replace individually.
but tesla will happily sell you a whole new pack for $20k
"see??? you have to replace the whole pack every 10 years for 20k!!!" - fud people, probably

 

[brian_]

the worst part about these non-serviceable designs is it gives all the FUD people tons of ammo to attack EVs with

Yes, and some of those attacks are legitimate.

on other cars, you replace one module after then ten year mark or something, maybe more like 15, and the pack is fine

Unfortunately that's not true. Unless you are sorting through modules salvaged from scrapped EVs, the replacement modules would not come close to matching the old ones, and the replacement wouldn't make sense. Module replacement is for repair needed due to defects causing failures early in the pack life, or to allow the good modules to be salvaged from packs salvaged from vehicles (while the bad modules are recycled); I don't see it as rational for pack life extension at least at the OEM's service operation or dealership level.

here ? a few bad batteries spoil the bunch and they're a BITCH to replace individually.

I assume that you meant "a few bad cells". No, they're not just difficult to replace, they are effectively not replaceable. Enough bad cells to make the pack performance unacceptable means scrapping (and hopefully recycling) the entire battery (pack).

but tesla will happily sell you a whole new pack for $20k
"see??? you have to replace the whole pack every 10 years for 20k!!!" - fud people, probably

Replacing the entire battery (pack) every 10 years - or hopefully longer - for something vaguely like $20K is not FUD, it's reality for cell-to-pack designs that are glued and welded together.

 

[remy_martian]

the worst part about these non-serviceable designs is it gives all the FUD people tons of ammo to attack EVs with

on other cars, you replace one module after then ten year mark or something, maybe more like 15, and the pack is fine

I'll add to what Brian said, which is pretty much what I would have posted.

Much of the luddite lore out there is based on the iPhone battery experience of it lasting two or three years. These very same people keep buying iPhones, by the way...

Tesla Model S has been on the road for a decade and almost all of them are still running high SoC (in the low 90%'s, iirc). I don't see pack replacement for 15-20 years in cars with thermally equalized and thermally conditioned cells that have not been thermally overstressed with high current charge/discharge.

No, you won't have "one cell go bad and replace it to extend the pack life". They should all go down together. Brian already covered the new cell among aged cells...it will not increase its contribution to the gang beyond what the worst of the gang (in theory each and each one) can do.

So servicing a pack is not a priority - Tesla seems to hate the secondary market (us here, solar, grid storage), and appears to want cells scrapped.

tesla will happily sell you a whole new pack for $20k
"see??? you have to replace the whole pack every 10 years for 20k!!!" - fud people, probably

And you will happily buy it, unless you got the f*cked up structural battery. Why?

Because everybody on this forum is HAPPY to pay $10,000 for an 80% SoC Tesla battery pack. Solar people are tickled. Grid guys...a bit grumpy.

Ten years later, DIYEC guy and Solar guy want more than 60% SoC, so Grid guy snaps those up for $6k.

EVERYBODY is happy. Except F-250 guy, because everything EV is spoken for and he's paying $12/gallon for Diesel, and $100/gallon for the bottled pee he adds for emissions.

Now, let's remember that EV batteries will need to be replaced in 2037, not now...a time when lithium mines are just starting up, and when execs are poking ceremonial holes in the ground with shovels for new battery plants.

Battery cost will come down, substantially, just like solar did. It'll take a bit longer, but by 2037, your $13,500 66kWh Bolt EV pack may be $9k. Now push that down the food chain I described. A Bolt EV battery, if it continued production (which it won't) will be $10k, a salvage will be $8k, an 80% will be $6k, a grid will be $3k, and the recycler will pay $1000.

So, no. A replacement EV battery is not $20k out of pocket. More like $2k for the Bolt, maybe $4k.

This is where I think Tesla is really f*cking up in the long term. All Structural Battery Tesla guys can do (assuming DIY can't figure out how to extract the cells, intact) is get laughed out of town when they bring their 80% car in for recycling...can't repurpose the battery, and the recycler is buying battery packs for $1000, not $8000, or $6000.

An engine is $5k...a diesel engine is $18k, as is a 650HP vette engine with a supercharger...our motors stay in the car, yet the replacement battery can power a dual motor car with 650HP.

All's good - stay off Facebook unless you're fully prepared to pee in the FUDders' koolaide. The Cult is all about creating belief in nonsense, and it sounds like you started believing some of it....don't feel too bad - the talk g points are dropped into social media by think tanks...fossil fuels have a lot to lose, but the oil industry doesn't care.

 

[electro wrks]

The cylindrical cell battery pack(and more specifically with 4680 cells) seems to be such a bad design, as some of the naysayers on this thread have tried to beat into our heads, that more and more car builders are planning to switch to them, according to some reports:

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/01/28/gm-switching-to-cylindrical-battery-cells/

Could this be a collective OEM vehicle maker suicide? Is the tired, uniformed, unimaginative logic of the naysayers to be believed?

Or maybe, like many of us here along with the OEMs, we have seen the seen the true advantage of using these cells. I suspect switching to some form of giga-castings and structural battery packs are next with these OEMs.

Look, it's unfortunate that these new designs probably cannot be easily broken down into smaller battery groups that are more useful for typical DIY projects. I for one welcome the challenge of finding good uses for reused battery packs and their vehicles. I believe they are going to be a great resource for people with creative and imaginative minds in the DIY and vehicle conversion communities. Let's get to work.