'68 Dnepnr motorcycle with sidecar
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Just started work on this.
It has a motenergy 1003 should be the double brushes.
I have 2 modules from a BMW I3 that I am testing. I gave it a spirited tool around the neighborhood, maybe 20 minutes, and there is a faint electrical smell coming from the motor. Are these things temperature protected at all? I am familiar with brushed motors I used run the ADC 8" in a civic (since gone ac-51) I know they get hot. This is direct drive (4.3 to 1) so maybe all the low speed take offs??
The bike is also probably at 700 lbs Is that too much for this motor?
Thanks for any info
It has a motenergy 1003 should be the double brushes.
I have 2 modules from a BMW I3 that I am testing. I gave it a spirited tool around the neighborhood, maybe 20 minutes, and there is a faint electrical smell coming from the motor. Are these things temperature protected at all? I am familiar with brushed motors I used run the ADC 8" in a civic (since gone ac-51) I know they get hot. This is direct drive (4.3 to 1) so maybe all the low speed take offs??
The bike is also probably at 700 lbs Is that too much for this motor?
Thanks for any info
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Yes, a 4.3:1 ratio seems too low for a 700 lbs. vehicle
What is your top speed?
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As far as parts I have just ordered head bearings and brake cable from east highway a speciality parts house in Estonia.
They seem responsive to questions and they have parts diagrams to order from which is pretty cool.
As far as gearing, It seems to have good starting torque and it's scary to take past 45 mph so I don't know how fast it would go. I have added a fan to the front of the motor and it is keeping it much cooler. I was toying around with the idea of putting a simple reduction gear with either a chain or a belt with a 1.75:1 ratio or so and some way to disengage this belt in case of runaway motor condition.
They seem responsive to questions and they have parts diagrams to order from which is pretty cool.
As far as gearing, It seems to have good starting torque and it's scary to take past 45 mph so I don't know how fast it would go. I have added a fan to the front of the motor and it is keeping it much cooler. I was toying around with the idea of putting a simple reduction gear with either a chain or a belt with a 1.75:1 ratio or so and some way to disengage this belt in case of runaway motor condition.
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Well an update on my motor. It turns out that my motor was timed wrong for direction of rotation CW. This is something that I should not of missed as I am a Honda Civic converted EV owner/builder. I know the ME-1003 is still maybe marginal for my rig but I can't spend the dough on an AC-20 that I know it wants.
I've had the comm turned and getting new brush set.
My question today is design questions about a gear reduction. The bike was direct drive with a 4.6:1 reduction to the wheels through a shaft drive.
I was going to do a simple 2:1 gear reduction by raising the motor and using as small a #40 gear on the motor shaft as I can get away with and a larger (2x the teeth) gear below it in a pillow block bearing with a chain.
Is #40 enough? do I need to do 2 strand chain? Will this take the RPM's?
will I need 2 bearings? The drive-shaft end is on a u-joint, I believe, as it flops around when motor is disconnected. There is also a rubber isolator that was connected between the motor and final drive.
I tried to figure out the design parameters on-line but I am not getting very far.
Any help is appreciated
I've had the comm turned and getting new brush set.
My question today is design questions about a gear reduction. The bike was direct drive with a 4.6:1 reduction to the wheels through a shaft drive.
I was going to do a simple 2:1 gear reduction by raising the motor and using as small a #40 gear on the motor shaft as I can get away with and a larger (2x the teeth) gear below it in a pillow block bearing with a chain.
Is #40 enough? do I need to do 2 strand chain? Will this take the RPM's?
will I need 2 bearings? The drive-shaft end is on a u-joint, I believe, as it flops around when motor is disconnected. There is also a rubber isolator that was connected between the motor and final drive.
I tried to figure out the design parameters on-line but I am not getting very far.
Any help is appreciated
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Yes this is a common problem with this set-up. Not enough gear reduction and no way to increase it. The motor turns too slow, draws too much current and overheats. You'll need to make some kind of jack shaft, and add another reduction step in the overall ratio to get the motor speed up and the current draw down. You're right, the floppy drive shaft and U-joint will need to be well supported in bearings on the motor side of the U-joint to handle the side load from the added chain or belt drive.
It looks like you have plenty of room for this. Plus, then you can adjust the size of the pulleys or sprockets to dial in the best ratio.
The jack shaft really should have 2 bearings. But, if they are large enough, they don't need to be very far apart if the load is not overhung very much. Flange mount or pillow block bearings are some of the easiest to work with:https://starsinphotos.files.wordpres.../12/s-8604.jpg http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/10.../photo-05.html
These type of bearings have a spherical outer race that makes them self-aligning, so no precision alignment is needed. Use the diameter of the motor output shaft, but the next convenient diameter larger, as guide for the diameter of the jack shaft and bearings.
It looks like you have plenty of room for this. Plus, then you can adjust the size of the pulleys or sprockets to dial in the best ratio.
The jack shaft really should have 2 bearings. But, if they are large enough, they don't need to be very far apart if the load is not overhung very much. Flange mount or pillow block bearings are some of the easiest to work with:https://starsinphotos.files.wordpres.../12/s-8604.jpg http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/10.../photo-05.html
These type of bearings have a spherical outer race that makes them self-aligning, so no precision alignment is needed. Use the diameter of the motor output shaft, but the next convenient diameter larger, as guide for the diameter of the jack shaft and bearings.
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Mounting the jack shaft to the U-joint will probably require some machine work. You should be able to use stock pulleys or sprockets on the other end of the shaft. Ways of mounting parts to the shaft, from worst to best are: (1) set screw(s) over keyway only (2) set screw(s) over keyway with a bolt or nut screwed in or on the the end of the shaft, clamping the part to the shaft and bearing (3) use a tapered bushing to mount the part.
Be sure to include slots in the motor mount to adjust the tension of the chain or belt.
You asked, I think, about #40 chain and sprockets? That size would work. But you're right, it's a pretty high speed application. It will be noisy and you'll have trouble keeping lube on it. Ripperton on his race bike with a similar chain set-up uses an O ring chain with some success. A toothed belt set-up might work better, but they're several times more expensive.
Be sure to include slots in the motor mount to adjust the tension of the chain or belt.
You asked, I think, about #40 chain and sprockets? That size would work. But you're right, it's a pretty high speed application. It will be noisy and you'll have trouble keeping lube on it. Ripperton on his race bike with a similar chain set-up uses an O ring chain with some success. A toothed belt set-up might work better, but they're several times more expensive.
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Bike looks great, Zap! I'm thinking about doing something very similar. Did you just mount all of the batteries in the sidecar? What size batteries are you using?
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2) bmw I3 packs mounted in sidecar boot 60 ah at 96 volts
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Here is an update on the motor. The Motenergy 1003 was timed incorrectly for reverse rotation. I got the comm serviced and a new brush set, and all is happy now. With the addition of a fan on the motor now blowing out the front of the motor, reverse rotation means the internal fan is blowing out also, the motor stays cool. Even after a hard run the motor is barely warm. bike performs very well. The I3 packs have 2 cells that are lower than the others. I wish I had done a capacity test on every cell, but was too anxious for the ev grin. In spite of the 2 lower cells. I am getting about 20 miles range before the lowest cell hits 3.5 resting. this is charging conservatively to 4.05
Does anybody have a discharge graph for these I3 batteries? I wonder if I can let those two cells drop off a bit more or am I already on the cliff edge?
Does anybody have a discharge graph for these I3 batteries? I wonder if I can let those two cells drop off a bit more or am I already on the cliff edge?
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I have contacted EVWest about a belt drive reduction for my bike. they referred me to Rainbow Precision and mentioned NRG belt and pulley products. The shortest center to center distance available is 6" in a continental silent synch set-up. I have room for more like 4" center to center
So question would be: could I do a straight gear to gear set-up? If so what are the engineering issues with such a set-up? It would need constant lubrication?
Or multiple V-belts?
So question would be: could I do a straight gear to gear set-up? If so what are the engineering issues with such a set-up? It would need constant lubrication?
Or multiple V-belts?
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In post 11 you say every is fine. In post 12 you're asking about reduction gearing for the drive set-up. What's going on?
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Great question. On the flat it works fine. I thought for climbing hills and motor longevity I would do the reduction. I just looked at the numbers for the AC-30 motor I am going to put in place of the ME1003. HPEVS said that the obsolete AC-30 has similar power numbers to their current AC-35. If this is the case then I probably don't need to bother with reduction.
ME-1003 315 in/lbs torque (is this ft/lbs if divided by 12?)
AC-35 128 ft/lbs torque
ME-1003 11.5 KW continuous
Ac-35 28 KW continuous
What do you think?
Thanks again for your input.
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You're encountering the conundrum alluded to in post 7. Beyond not having enough reduction, with the current(no jack shaft) set-up, there's no easy way to adjust the set-up to dial in the best reduction ratio for a given motor, vehicle weight, or driving conditions. I suspect most OEM bike makers, in spite of their best design calculations, still have to dial in the reduction ratio that's best for their bikes, by doing road tests.
The AC30 will have plenty of power for starting off. The power required to sustain higher speeds or climb hills may not be available (and/or the motor might be stressed by it drawing excess current) because the motor won't be able to operate at the higher RPMs where this power is available. Then again, this motor is oversized for this application. You might get away with it, and be satisfied with the performance. If not, you should have a backup plan with a jack shaft design.
Gears are impractical in this application. Try to increase the motor shaft/drive shaft center to center distance so a belt or chain drive could be used.
Here's a video (if you can stay awake watching it!) of someone who burned out a ME1003 and switched to a AC20 on his bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct_fieej254
The AC30 will have plenty of power for starting off. The power required to sustain higher speeds or climb hills may not be available (and/or the motor might be stressed by it drawing excess current) because the motor won't be able to operate at the higher RPMs where this power is available. Then again, this motor is oversized for this application. You might get away with it, and be satisfied with the performance. If not, you should have a backup plan with a jack shaft design.
Gears are impractical in this application. Try to increase the motor shaft/drive shaft center to center distance so a belt or chain drive could be used.
Here's a video (if you can stay awake watching it!) of someone who burned out a ME1003 and switched to a AC20 on his bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct_fieej254
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The AC-30 and 1238 controller is in with direct drive! I decided to try without the reduction. Performance is good. I have my grin back. It seems to pull fine but I have not been able to test it on any steep hills. The controller body stays cool but the built-in heat sink does get hot. I will be adding cooling fins if not a chill plate with pump etc.
It is very nice to have reverse and regen braking, I don't have to worry about the Dnepr brakes not working that well.
I initially could not get the programmer to connect to the controller to set parameters for the controller. We discovered that I had run the spyglass line along side my DC-DC converter which was so noisy that it prevented communication to the programmer. I should know this stuff having done this several times before (Zilla, Ac-51/1239, etc.) I just re-routed the cable clear of everything and it worked.
Thanks to Frodus for getting me going.
It is very nice to have reverse and regen braking, I don't have to worry about the Dnepr brakes not working that well.
I initially could not get the programmer to connect to the controller to set parameters for the controller. We discovered that I had run the spyglass line along side my DC-DC converter which was so noisy that it prevented communication to the programmer. I should know this stuff having done this several times before (Zilla, Ac-51/1239, etc.) I just re-routed the cable clear of everything and it worked.
Thanks to Frodus for getting me going.
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I can't believe its been 2 years since I posted this. Finally getting back to installing a jack shaft for 2:1 reduction, using advice from electro works. I will put a few drawings up.
I am planning on welding a large plate (white foam core mock up in photo) that will run from the engine bay floor up to the top frame bar. This moves the motor 5.5" up and to the center and approximately 4" forward for room for the jack shaft bearings and sprockets. I will run chain first. My question this time is how thick a steel plate should this be? The original plate that will be used for one of the jack shaft bearings is 1/8 or 3/16" steel with gusset plates on each side. the front bearing will be a pillow block (set on a shelf welded or bolted to the new plate) because of clearance with the motor and the rear bearing will be flat on a steel plate with slots in the original motor plate for adjusting tension. I was going to weld two bolts that make for adjusting tension and alignment for the pillow block bearing as well. I would also support the front of the motor from the frame above. Motor is a HPEVS AC-30.
I am planning on welding a large plate (white foam core mock up in photo) that will run from the engine bay floor up to the top frame bar. This moves the motor 5.5" up and to the center and approximately 4" forward for room for the jack shaft bearings and sprockets. I will run chain first. My question this time is how thick a steel plate should this be? The original plate that will be used for one of the jack shaft bearings is 1/8 or 3/16" steel with gusset plates on each side. the front bearing will be a pillow block (set on a shelf welded or bolted to the new plate) because of clearance with the motor and the rear bearing will be flat on a steel plate with slots in the original motor plate for adjusting tension. I was going to weld two bolts that make for adjusting tension and alignment for the pillow block bearing as well. I would also support the front of the motor from the frame above. Motor is a HPEVS AC-30.
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How close to burning out the motor did you get before deciding to move to the jack shaft gear reduction option? If you build the jack shaft with a over hanging shaft (like the motor output shaft), it will easier to change belts, if you ever go that route. Flange type self aligning bearings would probably work better for you: SKF
And, you do need 2, that's two, bearings. One will not work, as you will painfully find out if you ignore my advise again. The flange bearings have the advantage of being able to mount them close together, with through bolts going through the mounting holes of both bearings, maybe a spacer, and the support flange. The diameter of the shaft and the bearing spacing will have to be figured out. The motor has a 1 1/8" diameter output shaft? Maybe try a 1 1/4" jack shaft with the bearing centers(where the balls are) spaced at least 4" apart. This is just a guess. To be sure, you will have to get this properly engineered and /or keep a careful eye on the bearings for signs overloading.
Proper engineering again will determine the thickness of your motor and jack shaft support flanges. Bracing at right angles to the motor and jack shaft flanges is more important than the thickness of the flanges. If there is bracing between the flanges, make sure the bracing on one side is removable for easier access to the chain or belt.This bracing keeps the flanges from bending towards each other, under load. The loads can be considerable. More than one jack shaft has been ripped out of its mountings when the loads were not properly calculated. Keep a close eye for excess flexing in your mounts. If you ever anticipate using a belt drive, make sure the mounting slots in you motor mount flange are extra long. You can use an idler, but adjusting slots in the motor mount flange, if you have the room, are a lot simpler means of tensioning the drive. Some oversized holes in the jack shaft bearing mount(s) would be useful in centering the drive shaft. I would not depend on moving the jack shaft around to tension the drive.
And, you do need 2, that's two, bearings. One will not work, as you will painfully find out if you ignore my advise again. The flange bearings have the advantage of being able to mount them close together, with through bolts going through the mounting holes of both bearings, maybe a spacer, and the support flange. The diameter of the shaft and the bearing spacing will have to be figured out. The motor has a 1 1/8" diameter output shaft? Maybe try a 1 1/4" jack shaft with the bearing centers(where the balls are) spaced at least 4" apart. This is just a guess. To be sure, you will have to get this properly engineered and /or keep a careful eye on the bearings for signs overloading.
Proper engineering again will determine the thickness of your motor and jack shaft support flanges. Bracing at right angles to the motor and jack shaft flanges is more important than the thickness of the flanges. If there is bracing between the flanges, make sure the bracing on one side is removable for easier access to the chain or belt.This bracing keeps the flanges from bending towards each other, under load. The loads can be considerable. More than one jack shaft has been ripped out of its mountings when the loads were not properly calculated. Keep a close eye for excess flexing in your mounts. If you ever anticipate using a belt drive, make sure the mounting slots in you motor mount flange are extra long. You can use an idler, but adjusting slots in the motor mount flange, if you have the room, are a lot simpler means of tensioning the drive. Some oversized holes in the jack shaft bearing mount(s) would be useful in centering the drive shaft. I would not depend on moving the jack shaft around to tension the drive.
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Thanks for your reply, electro wrks I don't think I am anywhere close to burning up this motor, as you yourself said performance might be adequate, (which it is on the flat). I also monitor motor and controller heat closely. But it could definitely use more torque for hills and the calculation I made is it is currently geared for 100 mph. Even the little me1003 actually did okay with this gearing. I have attached some diagrams of the jack shaft plan. The jack shaft I was planning on is 7/8" which matches the drive shaft and I have the 7/8" fitting from the Me 1003 motor shaft to the elastic coupler. I hear you about the ease of adjusting tension with motor instead of jack shaft but I'm afraid I don't have the room. The drive shaft has a u-joint at the final drive and then this elastic coupler so there is room to deflect the drive shaft a bit (1/4-1/2") as the jack shaft is lowered to adjust tension. so both bearings will be adjustable.
I wanted to follow your advice on starting with a chain but I want to end up with a belt like a gates Poly Chain GT.
You said that I should have this engineered, any suggestions on finding an appropriate one? Thanks again for your ideas and advice.
I wanted to follow your advice on starting with a chain but I want to end up with a belt like a gates Poly Chain GT.
You said that I should have this engineered, any suggestions on finding an appropriate one? Thanks again for your ideas and advice.
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A minimum of `~1 1/2" of adjustment is usually required for the cog belt drives like this that I've setup. This is partly because of the limited length range of belts available. You have to work with what's offered. Also, at least one of the belt sprockets will have flanges you will need to slip the belt over. Your non-overhung, both sides of the sprocket bearing support design could make changing the belt a real chore. In a perfect world, the jack shaft would easily slide forward out of the way of the belt after the set screws or clamps are loosened on your coupling, the sprocket, and bearings. In the real world, rust, metal burrs, grime will make it so the shaft will need to driven with a hammer and punch or pulled out with a slide hammer.
Trust me, the belt drive double overhung jack shaft design is so much easier to work with.
Trust me, the belt drive double overhung jack shaft design is so much easier to work with.
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