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'71 Wagoneer

4338 Views 60 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  sierrablue, 
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Well, I'm new here. My daily driver is a '71 Jeep Wagoneer--I'll list the specs below for anyone who's interested. I can add links to my Full Sized Jeep forum build threads too, for anyone who's interested.

So a little background, I just turned 18, and am looking to start a degree in mechanical engineering next fall. I've grown up with a bunch of cars, our newest being a '96--I took to older cars after my parents. When I was born we had 4, now we're up to 6, one of them being my Jeep. We had 7 briefly, when I had two Jeeps for a few months. I'm also super into the outdoors and just love being outside--biking, hiking, kayaking, white water rafting, etc.

Back in 6th grade I learned about what releasing large amounts of CO2 is doing to the planet, and since then have been trying to figure out the best way to make the classics I know and like, sustainable. I learned more about the other advantages and everything of EVs later, but that was what got me on this path.

Back to the Jeep, I want to keep it looking mostly stock. I'm not looking for a massive lift and massive tires--there's no reason for it. I want to keep it as a 4x4 daily driver/family wagon. I want to keep the bench seats, install my rear shoulder belts (fronts are already done), maybe shave some weight. I'd like at least a 300 mile range, which is what it has now, and similar power to what it has now.

Note: Right now I'm gonna have to be paying for college--unless I find some incredible deal, I'm not doing a conversion in the immediate future. I just can't, financially, and because it's
my daily--I can't just take it down for a few months.

So initially I wanted to retain the factory transfer case, and tie one or two motors to a three on the tree for the Jeep. Then I could put batteries in place of the gas tank, exhaust, and engine, and if I moved the spare tire to right under the hood (presumably above some batteries there). That would open up a ton of space behind the rear axle, which would also keep the weight low. I figure the controller can go behind the dash, as there is a lot of space there, and it would keep it dry. Otherwise it can go up on the firewall somewhere.

I decided that that idea wasn't the best, just because the drivetrain is so naturally inefficient. In 2wd it would have to go through the transmission, transfer case, two u joints (one of which is at a not super great angle), and through the Dana 44 diff and axles. Now, it has locking hubs, so the front driveline wouldn't have to be spun, but still, that's not a great way to use your power.

So then I've been trying to figure out the best way to improve the efficiency, and about the only one is to put the motors at the diff, either with fully independent suspension swapped in, or with a solid axle built to bolt right into the factory leaf springs. Probably I would still use the Dana 44 outers, so I could even still retain the locking hubs and 2wd option if I wanted to.

My other idea is to do fully independent suspension on all 4 wheels. Plus side there is it makes it have less unsprung weight, and it should handle better. Down side is that'd be a lot more fabrication, it'd add some overall weight, and in order to give it decent, Jeep-style flex, I'd have to do long control arms and would probahly want to go for coil overs.

Obviously I have to have regular brakes (legally), although I want regen to do most of the work. I also want to retail the original gauges (I have the speedometer, fuel, and temp gauges, an amp light, and an oil light). I want to use all LEDs to minimize draw.

It still has crank windows, a manual seat, no rear defrost or wipers, non power brakes, etc. I plan to keep it that way, although I may wire in power mirrors, but those shouldn't be drawing any power unless you're adjusting them. I have a modern (but original looking) sound system. I know heated seats are the best way to go for an EV heater system, and that's not my *** option, but if that's what needs to happen, that's what needs to happen. I plan to do Toyota electric power steering on it, and have it shut off at 30 mph or so.

I know it's heavy, and the aero is awful, but that's my goal. Hopefully some people will be interested, and be able to help me out with my dumb questions as I learn more. I've been hearing a lot about new battery technology and I'm excited to see where that goes too.

Current specs:
-stock (Jeep put them in) Buick 350, Buick original 4-barrel intake, HEI distributor
-TH400 automatic transmission
-Dana 20 transfer case
-stock Dana 44 rear end (6-lug conversion)
-'74-'76 Wagoneer D44 front end (6-lug, disc brakes)
-custom headliner
-3"tailpipe, Flowmaster 60 or 80 series
-225/75r15 tires (needs new ones but I'm sticking with the size
-steel wheels w/hubcaps (will be going to stock Jeep forged aluminum slots, from a '76)
-braided stainless steel brake hoses (well bled)
-LEDs in place of most lights, plugged into stock sockets
-custom headliner
-front shoulder belts, have to build some brackets and install them and I'll have rears


The '71 Wagoneer - International Full Size Jeep Association

Put your build / project threads here.
forums.ifsja.org

I'm sure there's stuff I've forgotten but that's all I can think of right now.

Thanks in advance!
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Kato659
Best of luck. I'll say that some of your stated goals aren't likely to play nicely with each other. The 300 mile range is probably impossible if you're staying within the GVWR of the Jeep. And a battery pack that could manage that would be eye-wateringly expensive (and would make the Jeep a dog to drive around).

I'd also advise picking up a different daily driver before you rip this one apart (or maybe find another possible project vehicle that interests you [maybe something smaller and lighter, and therefor cheaper]) because even the best laid plans go wrong and these things (almost) always take way more time than you allow for. It could leave you riding the bus to work for a long while.

Again, the very best of luck to you!
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sierrablue said:
Back in 6th grade I learned about what releasing large amounts of CO2 is doing to the planet,
Click to expand...
Howdy & welcome!

IIRC a 1971 Jeep Wagoneer was built right here in Toledo, Ohio ;)

Um...did they mention (in School) that Volcanos "spew" more CO2 into our atmosphere, than humans
...& have been for a really, really long time (like millions of years)
...& there's NOTHING that we can do about it (good luck trying to "cap" a Volcano)

Think of us (humans) as like "ticks", living on a dog (the Earth)

Yes, (I agree) it's best to "keep our area" (& atmosphere) clean
...or if we irritate (Mother Nature) too much
...that dog (Earth) may start scratching

So, in the "big picture" converting an old car (or 2 or even 10) to electric isn't going to "save the planet"
...especially "if" countries like India & China don't help (by reducing CO2 emissions, from their factories)
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Yeah I realize the weight/price of batteries will be expensive. However, I did the math, and the weight should actually be pretty close to a wash...I guess there IS an advantage to having way overbuilt stuff on a Jeep 😉 And I mean, in reality, it has similar frontal area to a Rivian (less if anything, even if the Rivian has a lower coefficient of drag), and even loaded down with batteries should weigh about 2000 lbs less. However, like I said I'm not looking to get into it immediately, and I'd like to do it "right" (i.e. make it a good solid daily driver with a somewhat reasonable range), which according to some rough calculations, is about $25-30k.
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Functional Artist said:
Howdy & welcome!

IIRC a 1971 Jeep Wagoneer was built right here in Toledo, Ohio ;)

Um...did they mention (in School) that Volcanos "spew" more CO2 into our atmosphere, than humans
...& have been for a really, really long time (like millions of years)
...& there's NOTHING that we can do about it (good luck trying to "cap" a Volcano)

Think of us (humans) as like "ticks", living on a dog (the Earth)

Yes, (I agree) it's best to "keep our area" (& atmosphere) clean
...or if we irritate (Mother Nature) too much
...that dog (Earth) may start scratching

So, in the "big picture" converting an old car (or 2 or even 10) to electric isn't going to "save the planet"
...especially "if" countries like India & China don't help (by reducing CO2 emissions, from their factories)
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know. The environmental impact (now at least, at the beginning it was purely for the environment) is only part of the appeal now. And I realize it's a wild dream and I should be figuring out how to build my own island or something, but hey, a guy can dream right? 😉

I also like the improved efficiency, and after fighting with gasoline and oil for hours at a time trying to be able to drive it, I'm not a huge fan of combustion. Also you don't have the oil and coolant leaks that impact the more local environment, and all of the stupid "it's not running right" stuff to sort through just to try and get it to idle smoothly. I realize this is worse with a carb and stuff, but it's still annoying. And it's always nice to not have an extremely flammable liquid that you're literally causing to blow up to propel you forward...Love the guys that go "but it could catch on fire at literally any point while you're driving it." 1. How is that different? 2. You carry your phone in your pocket all day. 3. They just came out with some new technology to fix Li-ion batteries, not to mention the LiFePO4 batteries, and the new iron-air batteries (which are intended for more commercial use (and not for vehicles at this point), and take forever to charge, I know). 🤷‍♂️

Yep, it rolled off the Kaiser Jeep assembly line about 10 months after AMC bought Kaiser, in mid-November of 1970. And it had no idea at the time that some punk kid would have some wild and ambitious dreams for it 😉 (OK I don't normally personify cars and know I shouldn't, but still).
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Plus side to the big, heavy, overbuild frame, especially if I put the motors at the axles--LOTS of fairly low space to mount lots and lots of batteries...who knows, maybe I can find the point where it's better for range to leave a battery pack out than it is to keep adding them :D
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Here are some pics of the Jeep as it sits. I added some mudflaps to the back; we'll see if I put them on the front too or not. They're period correct NOS AMC Jeep mudflaps.

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Here are the wheels I'm going to be putting on it--they're about a pound lighter than the steel ones it has now, so 20 lbs instead of 21 🤣

The first two here are before and after I polished them--took me probably 30 hours on the four, plus I just bought a matching spare. They're off a Jeep that was run into the ground as a plow truck, so they're nowhere near perfect, but they cleaned up OK.

Sorry for all the posts--I'm just excited to get things posted here and get you guys up to speed.

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I weighed it a couple of weeks ago, with a full tank of gas. It was down maybe half a gallon?

Anyway, 4480 lbs without me in it, but it has a basic tool kit, shovel, spare tire stuff in it, and an offroad recovery kit I always forget is under the seat. Clearly it's not light, BUT hopefully shedding the combustion drivetrain will at least keep it in the 5000 lb ballpark.

Buick 350--450 lbs dry
TH400--140ish lbs, no idea if that's dry or full
Dana 20--80 lbs dry
exhaust--probably 20 lbs minimum?
gas/tank--around 24 gallons when full, times 6.5 lbs/gallon is 156 lbs, plus the 10 lbs of the tank

That's around 850 lbs dry, plus the radiator and coolant, oil, possibly tranny fluid, tcase fluid, etc. Plus if I redo the axles...that'll be a wash at the minimum though.

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Kato659
It's a great looking whip, and you absolutely can make it run on electrons, and make it weigh 5000 lbs (will probably strain that budget, though).

But there's a reason the EPA range on a standard F150 Lightning is 230 miles. Building long range EVs (on a chassis not designed for it especially) is difficult and full of compromises. If your conversion weighs 2000 lbs less than a Rivian there's no way it gets basically the same range as the Rivian.

If you need a vehicle that will go that far between charges (most do not) you're barking up the wrong tree. If a shorter range will do, you'll have a nifty ride.
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sierrablue said:
Back in 6th grade I learned about what releasing large amounts of CO2 is doing to the planet, and since then have been trying to figure out the best way to make the classics I know and like, sustainable.
Click to expand...
You are right about the CO2, contrary to the false lies ignorant groups of people are trying to spread :

www.scientificamerican.com

Are Volcanoes or Humans Harder on the Atmosphere?

Does one major volcanic eruption generate more climate-altering gas than that produced by humans in their entire history?
www.scientificamerican.com www.scientificamerican.com

However, there is a genuine concern about tying up rare and valuable EV resources in limited use vehicles(although, you wrote this is your daily driver). All the EVs in the world will do no or limited good to reduce CO2 emissions if they are not well used, regularly and often, to displace usage of the CO2 producing vehicles. This problem is further compounded by the limited calendar life of most batteries used at this time in EVs. This is generally a use it or lose it situation.

On way to partly mitigate this is to combine your converted classic vehicle's batteries into a grid or off-grid energy storage system. Systems that do this are just now popping up-driven by consumer demand and common sense.
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Kato659 said:
It's a great looking whip, and you absolutely can make it run on electrons, and make it weigh 5000 lbs (will probably strain that budget, though).

But there's a reason the EPA range on a standard F150 Lightning is 230 miles. Building long range EVs (on a chassis not designed for it especially) is difficult and full of compromises. If your conversion weighs 2000 lbs less than a Rivian there's no way it gets basically the same range as the Rivian.

If you need a vehicle that will go that far between charges (most do not) you're barking up the wrong tree. If a shorter range will do, you'll have a nifty ride.
Click to expand...
Thank you!

I honestly don't really care what the EPA (or frankly even the computers of the new trucks) say that they're getting for a range. They always estimate it low, even with gas cars. They drive it like a leadfoot and then knock off 1-2 mpg after that, and that's their rating. And with an EV, the electronics and wind are what kills the batteries--mine has the bare minimum for electrical draws, and has similar frontal area to a new truck, and less weight (only really an issue if you're getting moving/uphill), so it should get a similar range, given similar battery packs and such. We also rented a 2021 Ram 1500 last year, and it was honestly awful. The significance here though is that it told us we were getting 27+ mpg, while we did the math at the end, and it was like 22. Also it said it was maintaining speed, but when I drove behind it in our XJ (which has a mechanical speedometer), and it would slow down and then launch away, despite my speedometer and tach staying rock steady.

It's my daily driver, and if I can, I'd like to keep it as my only car. I don't want to lose the capability it has now (snow to the top of the grille, as long as it's not packed, is not a problem), as I like to be able to get anywhere no matter what the weather might do (I'm close to the Canadian border, in the central US), if I need to. Not for joyrides, but just if I need to get somewhere I want to have the option. I'm thinking a 300 mile summer, flat, no headwind range. That way I figure if the weather is super bad I should be able to make it to the next town or whatever if I have to, and for longer road trips, you don't have to stop ALL the time. And I'm ok with stopping to stretch for an hour or so every 300 miles--it's better for me to do that anyway.
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electro wrks said:
You are right about the CO2, contrary to the false lies ignorant groups of people are trying to spread :

www.scientificamerican.com

Are Volcanoes or Humans Harder on the Atmosphere?

Does one major volcanic eruption generate more climate-altering gas than that produced by humans in their entire history?
www.scientificamerican.com www.scientificamerican.com

However, there is a genuine concern about tying up rare and valuable EV resources in limited use vehicles(although, you wrote this is your daily driver). All the EVs in the world will do no or limited good to reduce CO2 emissions if they are not well used, regularly and often, to displace usage of the CO2 producing vehicles. This problem is further compounded by the limited calendar life of most batteries used at this time in EVs. This is generally a use it or lose it situation.

On way to partly mitigate this is to combine your converted classic vehicle's batteries into a grid or off-grid energy storage system. Systems that do this are just now popping up-driven by consumer demand and common sense.
Click to expand...
Thanks, makes me feel better about the CO2. And honestly even if it doesn't make a big difference, I'd rather at least not be part of the problem, even if I can't fix the problem itself. And let's be honest--nobody's going to pay for full synthetic oil AND gasoline when we run out of crude oil.

Yeah, I've wondered about that too. But, if we can get the government to treat them like they did lead acid batteries, then it will not only be more sustainable, but eventually we won't have to keep mining for the materials anymore, which will be good for the planet.

I would love to do that too--is that kind of what the hybrid and EV F-150s are using?
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Functional Artist said:
Um...did they mention (in School) that Volcanos "spew" more CO2 into our atmosphere, than humans
...& have been for a really, really long time (like millions of years)
...& there's NOTHING that we can do about it (good luck trying to "cap" a Volcano)

* * *
So, in the "big picture" converting an old car (or 2 or even 10) to electric isn't going to "save the planet"
...especially "if" countries like India & China don't help (by reducing CO2 emissions, from their factories)
Click to expand...

I guess the CO2-spewing volcano gods got more angry than usual (being the prior 800 years) when "we" started pulling industrial quantities of fossil fuels out of the ground?

Rectangle Slope Line Font Parallel


Ohio schools, eh? Wonder whose money ran the school boards and elections there?

Hint:

Font Screenshot Number Rectangle Terrestrial plant


Round up the virgins and get that CO2 back down.

China has the fastest rate of conversion to renewables, and the largest rate of EV adoption.

India? If you've ever been over there you'd know they're happy to shit where they are standing. They are refusing to move away from coal, which is good for Ohio.
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Electric Land Cruiser
Your goals are lofty, that's for sure. Using "miles" to measure the range of a truck like that is almost meaningless. For instance you could have a battery big enough to go 300 miles at 50mph but then if you go 75mph the range would literally be less than 200 miles. How many KWH are you looking at? That's the question.

Also sorry to break your bubble but EVs use coolant and oil just the same. No motor oil but transmission oil, diff oil, brake fluid, etc etc. Nobody here is saving the planet but it's at least fun to pretend :)
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Electric Land Cruiser said:
Your goals are lofty, that's for sure. Using "miles" to measure the range of a truck like that is almost meaningless. For instance you could have a battery big enough to go 300 miles at 50mph but then if you go 75mph the range would literally be less than 200 miles. How many KWH are you looking at? That's the question.

Also sorry to break your bubble but EVs use coolant and oil just the same. No motor oil but transmission oil, diff oil, brake fluid, etc etc. Nobody here is saving the planet but it's at least fun to pretend :)
Click to expand...
Yeah, I realize that. Maximum range should be cruising at 60 mph, as that's as fast as you can go without the barn door of a body pushing excessive quantities of air (on this power scale)(pedal bikes are a little different as they're not making anywhere near the power and don't have anywhere near the weight). I was thinking in the 150+kwh range, as I've read some stuff that indicates that old 4x4s get around 2 miles/kwh. Obv that's not a hard and fast rule, BUT at least somebody has some numbers I can use.

Some EVs use coolant, not all ;) And if I do use a coolant setup, maybe I can retain the stock heater core and not have to use seat heaters...

And as far as oil goes, tranny/diff fluid is totally different, especially on the manual transmission/diff level. It can be recycled and isn't being changed all of the time, not to mention it's not being burned (well, if nothing goes wrong...🤪). So it SHOULD be sustainable...
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Electric Land Cruiser said:
Also sorry to break your bubble but EVs use coolant and oil just the same. No motor oil but transmission oil, diff oil, brake fluid, etc etc. Nobody here is saving the planet but it's at least fun to pretend :)
Click to expand...
Again with the misleading nonsense.

In an ICE, oil is consumed, burned, abused, and exposed to harsh chemistry. Oil has to be changed every 6,000 miles as a result. In a 180,000 mile vehicle, that's about 40 gallons of oil that needs DISPOSAL. With 300 million vehicles on the road, and a 20 year life, that's 60B gallons of oil getting tossed every 100 years. An EV has no oil consumption. It also does not have "diff oil" or a "transmission", has a highly efficient integrated gearbox and diff, so has a much smaller lubricant footprint.

You running around the continent with your trailer queen at 9mpg with a 5 ton rig is not saving the planet. So yeah, we can all agree that you are not doing anything but consume max petroleum, but you never did sign up as a "greenie" - this is merely a sucker exploit for you to make money as an "expert".

Shitting on a new generation of kids wanting to make a difference is not cool - it shows you're an uninformed ass. OP is a lot more informed, as are most kids...they are always the ones the fix the older generations f*ups and are naive, motivated, innovators. Shitting on that enthusiasm is not cool, especially when your facts come out of the hole you sit on.

Converting a 15mpg truck to 60MPGe is OP doing his part and he should be respected for going beyond being a narcissitic poser and for wanting to actually build a truck with more than 20 miles of range that doesn't get towed behind an ICE everywhere it needs to go.

Yes, kid, there are some limitations, but these grampas will be eating crow when the batteries for your build are 3x lighter. Learn, save your money, get a second car and a garage to build in...tech will change. Some of us here are changing it for the better as we speak.
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remy_martian said:
Again with the misleading nonsense.

In an ICE, oil is consumed, burned, abused, and exposed to harsh chemistry. Oil has to be changed every 6,000 miles as a result. In a 180,000 mile vehicle, that's about 40 gallons of oil that needs DISPOSAL. With 300 million vehicles on the road, and a 20 year life, that's 60B gallons of oil getting tossed every 100 years...
Click to expand...
Noob question here...Not counting the oil consumption of an ICE, where and how do they dispose the oil that has been drained and collected?
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remy_martian said:
Again with the misleading nonsense.

In an ICE, oil is consumed, burned, abused, and exposed to harsh chemistry. Oil has to be changed every 6,000 miles as a result. In a 180,000 mile vehicle, that's about 40 gallons of oil that needs DISPOSAL. With 300 million vehicles on the road, and a 20 year life, that's 60B gallons of oil getting tossed every 100 years. An EV has no oil consumption. It also does not have "diff oil" or a "transmission", has a highly efficient integrated gearbox and diff, so has a much smaller lubricant footprint.

You running around the continent with your trailer queen at 9mpg with a 5 ton rig is not saving the planet. So yeah, we can all agree that you are not doing anything but consume max petroleum, but you never did sign up as a "greenie" - this is merely a sucker exploit for you to make money as an "expert".

Shitting on a new generation of kids wanting to make a difference is not cool - it shows you're an uninformed ass. OP is a lot more informed, as are most kids...they are always the ones the fix the older generations f*ups and are naive, motivated, innovators. Shitting on that enthusiasm is not cool, especially when your facts come out of the hole you sit on.

Converting a 15mpg truck to 60MPGe is OP doing his part and he should be respected for going beyond being a narcissitic poser and for wanting to actually build a truck with more than 20 miles of range that doesn't get towed behind an ICE everywhere it needs to go.

Yes, kid, there are some limitations, but these grampas will be eating crow when the batteries for your build are 3x lighter. Learn, save your money, get a second car and a garage to build in...tech will change. Some of us here are changing it for the better as we speak.
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Thanks for the info and the support! I was thinking the same thing about the gear boxes, etc.

I will say you can settle a little bit--they were mostly just teasing (I think). And a little teasing is ok in my book ;)
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rred said:
Noob question here...Not counting the oil consumption of an ICE, where and how do they dispose the oil that has been drained and collected?
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It's mostly filtered and recycled. Sometimes they put it into oils for combustion engines again, however a lot of people don't like the idea of not using "new" oil(🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄), and Valvoline's 50% recycled and 50% new (Nextgen I believe it was called), fell through for this reason. Otherwise it gets filtered and then burned in things like Union Pacific's steam program (which are incredibly cool but also not exactly low emissions).

Also if they're like the FSJs, some of it ends up wherever it's been parked...👀
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