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'71 Wagoneer

4290 Views 60 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  sierrablue, 
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Well, I'm new here. My daily driver is a '71 Jeep Wagoneer--I'll list the specs below for anyone who's interested. I can add links to my Full Sized Jeep forum build threads too, for anyone who's interested.

So a little background, I just turned 18, and am looking to start a degree in mechanical engineering next fall. I've grown up with a bunch of cars, our newest being a '96--I took to older cars after my parents. When I was born we had 4, now we're up to 6, one of them being my Jeep. We had 7 briefly, when I had two Jeeps for a few months. I'm also super into the outdoors and just love being outside--biking, hiking, kayaking, white water rafting, etc.

Back in 6th grade I learned about what releasing large amounts of CO2 is doing to the planet, and since then have been trying to figure out the best way to make the classics I know and like, sustainable. I learned more about the other advantages and everything of EVs later, but that was what got me on this path.

Back to the Jeep, I want to keep it looking mostly stock. I'm not looking for a massive lift and massive tires--there's no reason for it. I want to keep it as a 4x4 daily driver/family wagon. I want to keep the bench seats, install my rear shoulder belts (fronts are already done), maybe shave some weight. I'd like at least a 300 mile range, which is what it has now, and similar power to what it has now.

Note: Right now I'm gonna have to be paying for college--unless I find some incredible deal, I'm not doing a conversion in the immediate future. I just can't, financially, and because it's
my daily--I can't just take it down for a few months.

So initially I wanted to retain the factory transfer case, and tie one or two motors to a three on the tree for the Jeep. Then I could put batteries in place of the gas tank, exhaust, and engine, and if I moved the spare tire to right under the hood (presumably above some batteries there). That would open up a ton of space behind the rear axle, which would also keep the weight low. I figure the controller can go behind the dash, as there is a lot of space there, and it would keep it dry. Otherwise it can go up on the firewall somewhere.

I decided that that idea wasn't the best, just because the drivetrain is so naturally inefficient. In 2wd it would have to go through the transmission, transfer case, two u joints (one of which is at a not super great angle), and through the Dana 44 diff and axles. Now, it has locking hubs, so the front driveline wouldn't have to be spun, but still, that's not a great way to use your power.

So then I've been trying to figure out the best way to improve the efficiency, and about the only one is to put the motors at the diff, either with fully independent suspension swapped in, or with a solid axle built to bolt right into the factory leaf springs. Probably I would still use the Dana 44 outers, so I could even still retain the locking hubs and 2wd option if I wanted to.

My other idea is to do fully independent suspension on all 4 wheels. Plus side there is it makes it have less unsprung weight, and it should handle better. Down side is that'd be a lot more fabrication, it'd add some overall weight, and in order to give it decent, Jeep-style flex, I'd have to do long control arms and would probahly want to go for coil overs.

Obviously I have to have regular brakes (legally), although I want regen to do most of the work. I also want to retail the original gauges (I have the speedometer, fuel, and temp gauges, an amp light, and an oil light). I want to use all LEDs to minimize draw.

It still has crank windows, a manual seat, no rear defrost or wipers, non power brakes, etc. I plan to keep it that way, although I may wire in power mirrors, but those shouldn't be drawing any power unless you're adjusting them. I have a modern (but original looking) sound system. I know heated seats are the best way to go for an EV heater system, and that's not my *** option, but if that's what needs to happen, that's what needs to happen. I plan to do Toyota electric power steering on it, and have it shut off at 30 mph or so.

I know it's heavy, and the aero is awful, but that's my goal. Hopefully some people will be interested, and be able to help me out with my dumb questions as I learn more. I've been hearing a lot about new battery technology and I'm excited to see where that goes too.

Current specs:
-stock (Jeep put them in) Buick 350, Buick original 4-barrel intake, HEI distributor
-TH400 automatic transmission
-Dana 20 transfer case
-stock Dana 44 rear end (6-lug conversion)
-'74-'76 Wagoneer D44 front end (6-lug, disc brakes)
-custom headliner
-3"tailpipe, Flowmaster 60 or 80 series
-225/75r15 tires (needs new ones but I'm sticking with the size
-steel wheels w/hubcaps (will be going to stock Jeep forged aluminum slots, from a '76)
-braided stainless steel brake hoses (well bled)
-LEDs in place of most lights, plugged into stock sockets
-custom headliner
-front shoulder belts, have to build some brackets and install them and I'll have rears


The '71 Wagoneer - International Full Size Jeep Association

Put your build / project threads here.
forums.ifsja.org

I'm sure there's stuff I've forgotten but that's all I can think of right now.

Thanks in advance!
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Chewy
I understand your desire for a long-range, but consider having half of your 300-mile range and invest time into adding fast charging.

Even on a sedan, 300 miles would require 120.00 kWh of batteries.
At the current battery prices right now ($150.00/kWh optimistically) your pack would cost $18,000.
One of the best energy densities available at the moment is Tesla Model X modules, which are ~11 pounds per kWh, your pack would also weigh 1,320 pounds.

I also need a similar amount of range, however. I want to see loved ones 300 miles away. What is the solution? Fast charging!
There are public fast charging stations popping up everywhere that allow you to charge super quickly. Instead of plugging in your car overnight, you can charge a 50kWh battery pack in just 20-40 minutes. I would rather save $10,000 and stop for a cup of coffee halfway through my drive while carrying half the weight.

There are two ways of achieving fast charging at the moment, CHAdeMO (CHArge de MOve) and CCS (Combined Charging System).
CHAdeMO is supposedly easier to set up, although Damien Maguire (amazing dude) has been selling kits to hack a charge controller out of another car to make it happen, although that is what I have been focused on and I can tell you it's quite technical.

You will see a lot of advice online saying that your car must be light and aerodynamic. While that will make your car more efficient, you will find that most of that advice is from 10 or so years ago, as batteries were much bigger and much more expensive. So it was even more important then to make the most out of your kWh, as you couldn't fit many in the car.

Beautiful car btw!
Good luck.
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Kato659
I would say do not downsize your brakes to save weight (if anything, I would put in the best performing set that will fit). All's well until some idiot swings in front of you and stands on their brakes. Would be a shame to get in a collision because you had a full battery and no regen.
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Chewy said:
I understand your desire for a long-range, but consider having half of your 300-mile range and invest time into adding fast charging.

Even on a sedan, 300 miles would require 120.00 kWh of batteries.
At the current battery prices right now ($150.00/kWh optimistically) your pack would cost $18,000.
One of the best energy densities available at the moment is Tesla Model X modules, which are ~11 pounds per kWh, your pack would also weigh 1,320 pounds.

I also need a similar amount of range, however. I want to see loved ones 300 miles away. What is the solution? Fast charging!
There are public fast charging stations popping up everywhere that allow you to charge super quickly. Instead of plugging in your car overnight, you can charge a 50kWh battery pack in just 20-40 minutes. I would rather save $10,000 and stop for a cup of coffee halfway through my drive while carrying half the weight.

There are two ways of achieving fast charging at the moment, CHAdeMO (CHArge de MOve) and CCS (Combined Charging System).
CHAdeMO is supposedly easier to set up, although Damien Maguire (amazing dude) has been selling kits to hack a charge controller out of another car to make it happen, although that is what I have been focused on and I can tell you it's quite technical.

You will see a lot of advice online saying that your car must be light and aerodynamic. While that will make your car more efficient, you will find that most of that advice is from 10 or so years ago, as batteries were much bigger and much more expensive. So it was even more important then to make the most out of your kWh, as you couldn't fit many in the car.

Beautiful car btw!
Good luck.
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I can kind of see what you're saying here, but again, what if I have it in 4wd (feeding TWO motors), with the heat cranked, lights on, plowing through 18" of snow, with the closest town being 30 miles away? Will it even make it to that town? It would be REALLY close on a 150 mile range, and additionally, the the extra weight from the 300 mile range batteries would improve traction (in most snowy cases).

Also, what exactly does the lighter thing get me? Sure it might be a little more efficient and should handle better, and stop a little better, and maybe improve how much weight I can put in it, but not very dramatically. Additionally, that range will be more significantly affected by having say a kayak on top, bikes on the back, and camping gear in the back. I'd love to still be able to go camping in the middle of nowhere.

The drive from home to the university will be right around 900 miles--I'm going to be stopping no matter what. Also it involves going through both of the Dakotas...not sure if you've been through there, but there's a whole lot of nothing for extended periods of time. I'm in the part of the US right now that has like the worst EV infrastructure that there is in the US, so that's probably why I'm worried about range so much.
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Kato659 said:
I would say do not downsize your brakes to save weight (if anything, I would put in the best performing set that will fit). All's well until some idiot swings in front of you and stands on their brakes. Would be a shame to get in a collision because you had a full battery and no regen.
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That's fair, and actually retaining the D44s there's not really any way to downsize the brakes. The fronts definitely staying as they are, and the rears I was thinking (since I'm going to have to cut the rear axle apart for the swap anyway) I could take the outer pieces from a newer Wrangler, which have disc brakes in the back, and should be easy to find parts for.

They're non-power brakes (and I intend to keep them that way), and are discs in the front, and I can (I don't usually, but I CAN) lock up all four wheels at 60 mph. Brakes aren't the issue--the bigger issues mine has for stopping are tires and weight.
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sierrablue said:
Yeah I realize that regen only goes so far. I think I read somewhere that the regen on trains for instance, yes they have SOME batteries, but most of the excess power is released as heat? I mean I know they have physical brakes too, and that it sucks to lose that excess power as heat like regular brakes do, but is there a way you can set it up to bleed the energy that way?
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Diesel-electric locomotives (and heavy mining trucks) normally have no traction battery at all, so all of the power produced by running the motors as generators to brake is dissipated as heat, through huge radiating resistance heating elements. It's a waste, but these systems were built before batteries would be practical for this purpose, and batteries large enough to be useful would still be very expensive.

A car could also dissipate braking energy this way if desired, but it needs very capable friction brakes anyway so there's not much point. The only advantage of electrical braking with energy rejection as heat is that it could be sustained indefinitely, while friction brakes large enough to that are impractical.
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sierrablue said:
So from a mechanical aspect, I'm kind of thinking build a motor/gearbox assembly that goes right in the middle, and figuring out how to mount the D44 axle tubes up to it, and run CV joints instead of u joints in the front.
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That's the configuration which is now commonly known as an "eAxle". It is used by some production heavy trucks, including now the Tesla Semi.

This is commercially available, although the better products are only available to OEMs (vehicle manufacturers), not to individual buyers. Pick the product type "eAxle" from the Dana Electrified products page for examples; the eS4500r might be about right for the Jeep if you could get it (but you can't).

sierrablue said:
My two concerns with that plan are 1) whether or not that would be too much weight for the center of the axle, although as I think about it more, if it's right in the middle, it shouldn't be a problem... and 2) in the rear, yes the frame and floor pan go up a lot for the axle, but there's a pretty good sized cross member right there...I'm worried it might add too much height and either a) hit the floor/cross member, or b) significantly reduce my ground clearance. Hmmmmmm...this will take some drawing and calculating.,,
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Structurally it's no problem if the motor case is designed for it, and Dana's eS5700r looks like what you propose. Some designs (including Tesla's) use a stock-style axle housing and bolt the motor and first stage of reduction gearing into the opening where the pinion carrier would normally bolt in; Meritor is offering their regular heavy truck axles in electric versions as "ePowertrains", and at the other extreme golf cars often use this design.

Packaging is always a concern. For ground clearance, there's always the portal axle approach - low-floor buses use inverted portal axles, ZF has an electric version (AxTrax AVE), and Mercedes has used it turned over to a normal portal configuration in some trucks.
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sierrablue said:
... but again, what if I have it in 4wd (feeding TWO motors), with the heat cranked, lights on, plowing through 18" of snow, with the closest town being 30 miles away?
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Putting all of the power into one motor, or half as much power into each of two motors, doesn't make a lot of difference to total power consumption. The motors use as much power as you ask of them to maintain speed, so it's not as if driving two motors use twice as much power as one motor.

On the other hand, regardless of the number of motors plowing through deep snow is going to take a lot of energy.
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Chewy
sierrablue said:
I can kind of see what you're saying here, but again, what if I have it in 4wd (feeding TWO motors), with the heat cranked, lights on, plowing through 18" of snow, with the closest town being 30 miles away? Will it even make it to that town? It would be REALLY close on a 150 mile range, and additionally, the the extra weight from the 300 mile range batteries would improve traction (in most snowy cases).
Click to expand...
Your Heater will draw somewhere between 1kW and 5kW (likely on the higher end) and cold weather will shrink your range by up to 20%. If the heater is on full blast, using all 5kW of power, a 60kWh pack would allow for 12 hours of heating if you aren't moving. If you are very careful, moving at 30mph in the snow with heaters on full blast, I would imagine a 30-mile drive would take 1.5 hours or so (I've only driven through the snow once, so I am sorry for my ignorance). Using around 7.5kWh of that range for heating you would have 52.5 kWh of range left. Modeling your car after the 2001 Ford Explorer USPS Electric which has the worst fuel mileage of an ev (for a worst case) would give you 0.87kWh per mile. That would translate into a 45.7 mile range. With the cold, that number is now 36 miles.

After looking at the numbers, you are right.


sierrablue said:
Also, what exactly does the lighter thing get me? Sure it might be a little more efficient and should handle better, and stop a little better, and maybe improve how much weight I can put in it, but not very dramatically. Additionally, that range will be more significantly affected by having say a kayak on top, bikes on the back, and camping gear in the back. I'd love to still be able to go camping in the middle of nowhere.
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For me the scary part of the equation is more so the money than the weight haha. I would just be cautious to go too far over the GVWR, which of your wagoneer (or at least from what google tells me) is 6200 lbs. With a curb weight of 4480, you'll probably have 2k to work with after you take out the ICE stuff, and after 1,500 pounds of batteries, you have 500 lbs left of carry weight before you are in it. All rough estimates though.

An extra 100 lbs. in a vehicle could reduce your range up to 2%, so adding more batteries does have diminishing returns. If you originally had 750 pounds of batteries, doubling the pack would increase your range by 85% instead of 100% if we are taking the weight into account.

sierrablue said:
The drive from home to the university will be right around 900 miles--I'm going to be stopping no matter what. Also it involves going through both of the Dakotas...not sure if you've been through there, but there's a whole lot of nothing for extended periods of time. I'm in the part of the US right now that has like the worst EV infrastructure that there is in the US, so that's probably why I'm worried about range so much.
Click to expand...
If you have 300 miles of range, to make this trip you would need fast charging. To charge a 120kWh pack it would take 40-80 minutes with fast charging, and 4-10 hours without. Turning a 1-2 day trip into a 3-5 day one.

After thinking it through, it makes sense to have a very large range, it would be almost necessary for your environment, but fast charging will still be a must.

Stay strong,
Derek
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Chewy said:
Your Heater will draw somewhere between 1kW and 5kW (likely on the higher end) and cold weather will shrink your range by up to 20%. If the heater is on full blast, using all 5kW of power, a 60kWh pack would allow for 12 hours of heating if you aren't moving. If you are very careful, moving at 30mph in the snow with heaters on full blast, I would imagine a 30-mile drive would take 1.5 hours or so (I've only driven through the snow once, so I am sorry for my ignorance). Using around 7.5kWh of that range for heating you would have 52.5 kWh of range left. Modeling your car after the 2001 Ford Explorer USPS Electric which has the worst fuel mileage of an ev (for a worst case) would give you 0.87kWh per mile. That would translate into a 45.7 mile range. With the cold, that number is now 36 miles.

After looking at the numbers, you are right.




For me the scary part of the equation is more so the money than the weight haha. I would just be cautious to go too far over the GVWR, which of your wagoneer (or at least from what google tells me) is 6200 lbs. With a curb weight of 4480, you'll probably have 2k to work with after you take out the ICE stuff, and after 1,500 pounds of batteries, you have 500 lbs left of carry weight before you are in it. All rough estimates though.

An extra 100 lbs. in a vehicle could reduce your range up to 2%, so adding more batteries does have diminishing returns. If you originally had 750 pounds of batteries, doubling the pack would increase your range by 85% instead of 100% if we are taking the weight into account.



If you have 300 miles of range, to make this trip you would need fast charging. To charge a 120kWh pack it would take 40-80 minutes with fast charging, and 4-10 hours without. Turning a 1-2 day trip into a 3-5 day one.

After thinking it through, it makes sense to have a very large range, it would be almost necessary for your environment, but fast charging will still be a must.

Stay strong,
Derek
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It's all good 😂 It would have to be up to the bumpers for that drive to take that long, at which point I wouldn't go anywhere unless I had to, but it would be nice to know I could if I had to.

Yeah the money is scary...but hey, just one money pit (aka car 👀) is going to be cheaper than a bunch right? 😂

That 6200 you're seeing is kinda an arbitrary number on these. They really overbuilt them in case of manufacturing flaws and stuff. Obviously you don't want to have it super high all of the time, but it's not gonna break. Also the axle mods should be a wash with the existing diffs, and maybe trans/tcase. So the 450 lbs (dry) of the engine, plus the 150 lbs of gas, plus the exhaust/drivelines/fluids and everything...I calculated that once and it was ~800 lbs I'd be taking out. So 700 more than it is now...not great but not awful. Still gives me a decent buffer.

Yep, fast charging was part of the plan. I probably should have mentioned that before.
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Well, somewhat major update for the Jeep.

On Thursday I was out cruising, and the roads were mostly dry, with sections of ice. About half way across one of the icy sections, a gust of wind came and kicked the back end of the Jeep out on me, pointing it straight towards the ditch. Went into the ditch and the snow was killing my speed, and the Jeep rolled all of the way over, landing on its wheels again. I was in no way physically hurt, and once it was yanked out of the ditch, I drove it home. The windshield got destroyed, and the driver's fender is messed up (wasn't perfect before). Last night my dad and I spent some time working on the dents--some in the roof and some in the hood, which are much closer to straight (the roof is actually straighter than it was when we got it...).

Two of the three roof braces (they bolt in) were bent--we bent them back, but I can't decide if they're ok or if they're going to be compromised. We'll see how it goes.

As for the windshield hole, the posts are within 4° of each other front-to-back, and the cross (opp corner to opp corner), measurements are absolutely identical.

Honestly I have no idea how/why it came out so well, however I'm glad that it did. Both for me and it. Honestly it was a best case bad scenerio.
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Here are some pics; the outside ones are immediately after being pulled out, and the others are after pulling the windshield and working on the dents. Also the dent in the driver's door came out when I slammed the door shut.

Long term hopefully I can get a fiberglass replacement fender, meanwhile there's nothing wrong with it from a mechanical standpoint.

Wear your seatbelts (why I'm unhurt) and be safe, everyone!

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Chewy
I'm so glad that you are okay, and by the looks of it the car as well. When I bought what I wanted to be my first car for a conversion, a pontiac fiero, it caught on fire on the 30 mile journey home so your car is more robust lmao
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Chewy said:
I'm so glad that you are okay, and by the looks of it the car as well. When I bought what I wanted to be my first car for a conversion, a pontiac fiero, it caught on fire on the 30 mile journey home so your car is more robust lmao
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Thank you. I am too.

Lol those Fieros are certainly special. An EV of those would be cool.

The thing I don't get is that it fired right back up and literally everything still works. All of the electrical, all of the mechanical stuff--literally the only damage is some dents in the sheet metal. It's crazy.

Also since I'm swapping to the slotted aluminum wheels for my new all seasons I'll get this spring, I'm thinking I'll put winter tires on the steel wheels, after that incident.
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Electric Land Cruiser
Holy crap! Glad you are ok. That truck doesn't hardly look damaged at all, let alone completely rolled over! They sure don't make them like they used to.
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Electric Land Cruiser said:
Holy crap! Glad you are ok. That truck doesn't hardly look damaged at all, let alone completely rolled over! They sure don't make them like they used to.
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Thanks! Yeah the truck is totally fine--got most of the dents out now and it needs a new driver's fender eventually, but it's really coming back together well.

I would like to note that it has nothing to do with how the Jeep is built. Sure, it's probably better than '90s stuff, as it has thicker and purer steel, but it's still just sheet metal, with relatively thin pillars. The fact that it didn't get crushed into a convertible is frankly an unbelievable miracle, and is pure dumb luck with the way it rolled. I got really, really lucky.
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Well, did some measuring, and a new windshield will just pop right in. A pillars are right where they're supposed to be, perfect. There are a handful of places I can get a windshield. . .even found it new somewhere (but not for cheap so I'm going to avoid it if possible).

Got the dents worked out pretty well, and the roof popped right back into place when I got the bent (bolt-in) roof braces out. Mostly just waiting on a windshield to drive it again. I need to check the steering box bracket I built, make sure it survived the rollover ok.

Meanwhile paying for premium in my dad's truck, which gets about the same mileage, but has a smaller tank. Stopping for gas every other day 🤪 (40 miles each way. It gets bad mileage but it's not THAT bad). Of course, when the fuel gauge doesn't work, that leads to stopping A LOT too...
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All back together and looking good. I've been fighting some fuel issues (wish it was an EV...), but otherwise it's been good.

I've been getting a little more on board with the hydrogen stuff. Initially I was like no, I don't want an extremely explosive fluid, let alone a PRESSURIZED extremely explosive fluid on board with me. But they test the snot out of those tanks; my only major worry is with the lines, if something happens to those, whether it be a rock or rust or an accident. Meanwhile I gotta wait for hydrogen to spread to places OTHER than California, as I don't want to live in Cali.
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Chewy
sierrablue said:
Meanwhile I gotta wait for hydrogen to spread to places OTHER than California, as I don't want to live in Cali.
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Its sunny over here :)
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Chewy said:
Its sunny over here :)
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Lol I like the snow and rain. Pretty much the only way to keep me in Cali would be if I fell in love with someone who just had to live there...which I don't see happening, but you never know. 😜
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