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A look at the new Tesla cells

11922 Views 124 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  Kevin Sharpe
2170 cells replaces 18650 standard at the Gigafactory.

Doubtful they will be available to DIY community, though. The big boys will probably contract full production.
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Even tesla push their cells beyond normal limits when they pull 1500 amps from a 74p cell group !
Well, with the 100DL, the 580 kW load will be distributed over 85 cells. That is 17 A per cell or 5C. The heat generated with a 100 mOhm internal resistance is phenomenal. It will be about 30 W per cell, or 240,000 W for the pack. This is not coolable. The pack will glow after a minute! Even at 50 mOhm, the thermal energy produced is 120 kW (plus all the heat from the connections). This can be sustained for only a few seconds.

No wonder the 100DL wins the 0-60 but loses the 1/4 mile because it has to throttle itself back or you get destroyed cells. Also the lack of a 2nd gear in the Tesla causes the motor to operate in an inefficient region, draining more current.

The average user probably never exceeds 2C.
... Also the lack of a 2nd gear in the Tesla causes the motor to operate in an inefficient region, draining more current.
...
Hi Sol,

You think you could show us a quantitative analysis or reference supporting your statement?

Thanks in advance,

major
Internal resistance is closer to 40-42 mohm, but yeah, still a lot heat at max power levels. That's why it can only be used as burst power, their efficiency drops to around 65%.
Internal resistance is closer to 40-42 mohm, but yeah, still a lot heat at max power levels. That's why it can only be used as burst power, they efficiency drops to around 65%.
Hi riba,

A battery's maximum power output is at half its open circuit voltage so discharge efficiency is 50%. For a resistive load that would occur when load resistance equals the internal resistance of the battery. At maximum power the power converted to heat in the battery is equal to power delivered to the load.

major
Hi Sol,
You think you could show us a quantitative analysis or reference supporting your statement?
major
This must be a trick question? :) The torque curve is pretty flat until it reaches a threshold speed whereby it declines by speed. Namely the motor efficiency drops rather steeply with higher speeds. The decline in torque is faster than the increase in RPM and thus power drops and efficiency decreases and motor thermal energy increases.

So in order to have a faster car, the RPM must be dropped below the threshold, which means the gear should be increased. Thus we need at least two gears.

If you provide me the spec sheet for Tesla's motor, I will try to work it out.
You dont need a motor spec when you have a dyno readout !...
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/att...parison-graph-zoomed-to-tps-eq100-png.112464/
You can see the torque starts to drop off at about 35 mph, But the power stays virtually constant all the way up to the 95mph limit of the trace.
..but sure, even that speed is only 2/3 of the motor max rpm (18k rpm) so what happens in that rpm range is not measured, though it has been reported that the power stays at that level before starting to drop off at 120 mph (~14k rpm).
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This must be a trick question? :) The torque curve is pretty flat until it reaches a threshold speed whereby it declines by speed. Namely the motor efficiency drops rather steeply with higher speeds. The decline in torque is faster than the increase in RPM and thus power drops and efficiency decreases and motor thermal energy increases.

So in order to have a faster car, the RPM must be dropped below the threshold, which means the gear should be increased. Thus we need at least two gears.

If you provide me the spec sheet for Tesla's motor, I will try to work it out.
Hi Sol,

Mr. Karter2 has been kind enough to supply the data, so please provide the analysis to substantiate your statement concerning inefficient operation and draining current due to direct drive. I just don't see it.

major
The torque curve is pretty flat until it reaches a threshold speed whereby it declines by speed. Namely the motor efficiency drops rather steeply with higher speeds. The decline in torque is faster than the increase in RPM and thus power drops and efficiency decreases and motor thermal energy increases.
The torque does drop after the threshold (as it does with any motor), and with a brushed DC motor it drops rapidly and all of the above applies. With an induction motor or PM AC motor the torque tends to drop in proportion to speed so power tends to be reasonably constant for a substantial range of speed above the threshold.
Thanks - excellent illustration :)

Dropping torque doesn't necessarily imply dropping efficiency. Anyone who wants to put in the effort can compare the total mechanical power (the sum of front and rear power; power for each axle is the product of torque and speed). The "power" curve on the graph must be electrical power, since it is not zero in the brake-stand stall leading up to the launch (at zero on the time scale); that means that any change in efficiency could be calculated (but not absolute efficiency, because the actual power is not known, unless you know the tire rolling radius).

I found the discussion in thread in which this graph was posted (Chassis CAN Logging To ASCII Text Plus Graphing, page 9), and the data appears to be all from the car's internal network, collected by CAN messages... so there's likely no real torque measurement at all.

I wondered about the validity of the torque data, since some dynamometer methods are questionable, (although I eventually realized that there's no dyno here) and in this case the torque values are inconsistent: from 415 somethings @ 35 mph to 190 @ 70 mph would make sense for the front because it would be about a 10% power drop, but from 200 somethings @ 35 mph to 115 @ 70 mph would be about a 30% power increase. If the real mechanical power is almost constant, the almost constant electrical power draw suggests that efficiency is roughly unchanged.

I think the torque data might be a little flaky, since the front does not drop enough with the speed increase to be plausible with constant power, although the car could be shifting power to the front with increasing speed, which makes physical sense. The electrical power data is at least plausible, because to accelerate the two-ton mass accelerating at 10 m/s2 through 50 km/h or 30 mph takes 280 kW, the car weighs somewhat more than two tons, and there is rolling and aero drag... so the 400+ kW of power consumption may be a little high but at least is in the right ballpark.

I can see why Tesla Motors gave up on multi-ratio transmissions after their first attempt failed (in the Roadster). They're now putting so much power in these cars that the speed-dependent power under the threshold (which corresponds with 30 mph in this test) doesn't matter: the constant torque at and below the threshold is probably all the tires can handle anyway (it's accelerating at over one g up to that point), and certainly it is all that is needed. With AWD and separate front and rear motors (which is the only sensible arrangement), shifting gears could be a challenge to manage well.
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I think what I am saying is that the Tesla motor efficiency drops at higher RPMs. Thus it would be beneficial if the reducing gearbox which I believe is reducing by a factor of 6 resulting in motor turning at 12,000 RPM at 95 mph - were to reduce to 3 over let's say 50 mph. Then there would be more power available to the wheels as opposed to heating the engine and increasing coil resistance and more work for the cooling system. Also much less noise and better comfort.

In the chart, look at 55 mph. R_Tq for the L is 255 (whatever unit) and at 75 mph 163 and at 90 mph is 130.
55*255 = 14,025
75*163 = 12,225
90*130 = 11,700
Whatever the unit may be. You can see the power to the wheels decreasing, even though power input is almost constant. Between 55 mph and 90 mph, power input drops 3.4% while power output drops 16.6%. I believe a 10% increase in power could be achieved at 95 mph if the gear ratio were dropped from 6 to 3, and the motor RPM halved.

This would also allow Tesla to increase the reduction at lower speeds, such as from 6 to 8 and get even better acceleration. Of course it should be the user's option to decide at what speed to change the gears - i.e. there should also be a manual mode.
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yah something might be up with that chart. I cant find any permutation of mph and torque and units that adds up to anything like 500kw at the wheels at the knee or the end. Assuming 27" diameter tires.

not related to gearing per-se, that is a compromise, not a bad one either, you aren't *really* concerned about efficiency if you are driving 95+ mph, the motor is maintaining power pretty well and trading torque for rpm, like a gear change would, only a hell of a lot more smoothly and reliably.

this might shed some light, same torque-ish shape but they started at 30mph so maybe that is what is off. 920ft lbs and 588 hp, p100d, the peak torque is at about 50mph


https://youtu.be/q5HgthPgzgQ?t=326

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I can see why Tesla Motors gave up on multi-ratio transmissions after their first attempt failed (in the Roadster). They're now putting so much power in these cars that the speed-dependent power under the threshold (which corresponds with 30 mph in this test) doesn't matter: the constant torque at and below the threshold is probably all the tires can handle anyway (it's accelerating at over one g up to that point), and certainly it is all that is needed. With AWD and separate front and rear motors (which is the only sensible arrangement), shifting gears could be a challenge to manage well.
They are putting so much power that the cells are at the limit and can only be run for a few seconds before damage sets in, and they have to cut down on power. So that is how they lose the 1/4 mile sprint. With a higher drive reduction ratio, they can get more torque for less power at the start, and then at high speeds, less power wastage which means higher speeds. I think it was a very bad decision to drop the gearbox. A dual clutch gearbox with only two gears can be designed by their engineers in their sleep. I fail to see the challenge in shifting gears with a dual dry clutch. They will kill two birds with one shot. I am certain electric supercars will all be multi-gear.

If it is true that the 100L is drawing 580 kW - I believe this is for the motor and for all base systems and cooling, including line losses - and assuming an internal cell resistance of 60 mohm (which increases with cycle life), the current drawn from the pack is 1,475 A and heat generated by the pack, not including line thermals, is 130 kW, or about 16 W per cell. Each cell is drained at 17A which is 5C - way above the spec (2C Panasonic, 3C Tesla) I believe - unless they have a new chemistry, which they have not shared. So when Musk says "will share patents", he means, I will not patent, so I won't have to share. Or more likely, they are just overheating the cells as it is doubtful that they can collect 130 kW of heat. Hence the very short duration of maximum acceleration.

With a gearbox, many of these issues can be mitigated.
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multiple gears would only slow it down, and make it less reliable. A low power vehicle could make use of it, i.e. be able to climb a hill and have reasonable top speed, but this thing already can break traction with ease on startup and go 150+mph. I wouldn't mess with it, it does 10 second 1/4 miles! a lower gear doesn't buy you anything off the line and a higher gear doesn't buy you much.

also see my previous post.
It should be noted that according to the chart, the vehicle is drawing almost 40 kW at standstill. Compare this to a Leaf's 0.5 kW base load. I would guess that this may be the result of entering Ludicrous mode and the cooling system is feverishly pre-engaged to cool down the systems and the pack, prior to the sprint.

I wondered about the validity of the torque data, since some dynamometer methods are questionable, (although I eventually realized that there's no dyno here) and in this case the torque values are inconsistent: from 415 somethings @ 35 mph to 190 @ 70 mph would make sense for the front because it would be about a 10% power drop, but from 200 somethings @ 35 mph to 115 @ 70 mph would be about a 30% power increase. If the real mechanical power is almost constant, the almost constant electrical power draw suggests that efficiency is roughly unchanged.
That is a good point that power may be transferred to the front wheels as it speeds up. That may explain the loss seen at high speeds in the rear train. In fact the chart indicates that the front motor is getting more efficient at higher speeds!
Front Ludicrous:
55 mph 140 = 7700
90 mph 93 = 8370
So there has been a gain of 8.7%. Obviously the power is being shifted to the front. But not as much as the rear is losing power. Also note the base load of 40 kW. So that would mean that the loss is actually larger as a percentage of power consumed by the motors.
I think what I am saying is that the Tesla motor efficiency drops at higher RPMs. Thus it would be beneficial if the reducing gearbox which I believe is reducing by a factor of 6 .
The Tesla transmission has a 9.73:1 reduction.
Efficiency related motor heating is not the issue limiting 60+ mph Teslas performance,
...nor is the heating of the battery and inverter at the high currents (1500A) demanded for 500kW output.
The cells can output this max level of current draw (5-6C) for the 10-15 seconds needed to run a 1/4 mile , so that is not the cause of reduced performance .
(In "Ludicrous" mode, the car actually pre-heats the battery pack to improve the discharge capeability, before a run is enabled)
However , it is true that the car has power limiting safety mode for protection of the battery, inverter, and motor , but these only seem to kick in after several minutes of high performance operation.
3
If we're talking motor efficiency then why not look at efficiency plots. I couldn't find one for the Tesla. Odd, I thought I had one stashed in my files. But it would be similar to this except scaled and likely optimized.



You can see like about a 1% efficiency point difference between maximum output at 8000 and 4000 RPM. This is what I am basing my skepticism on. The above chart is for a PM motor I think. The second attachment is for and induction motor. Typically such plots will include inverter losses along with the motor. Cooling and auxiliary system power is unknown.

When you design with sufficient motor, the shifting gearbox becomes a liability. We have numerous threads discussing this topic.

Regards,

major

Attachments

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dcb - I think the calculation for ICE horsepower is somewhat different than pure electric and is bloated. I have seen elsewhere that 28 HP of ICE power is equated to only 15 kW electric motor (about 20 HP). This may explain the high 588 kW figure of the dyno -- which does not include the base load which is at least 40 kW. With a 50 kW base load, it is hard to believe that 638 kW is being consumed.

The Tesla already has a reduction gear of 9.73:1. They can have two sets of these with a dual dry clutch system where only one is engaged at a time. There will be absolutely no loss in efficiency. (A clutch has other uses such as in towing or cruising.) Why not have a quicker car with more torque and a quieter and faster car at high speeds? All you need is a dual parallel reduction drive. I would choose 13:1 and 6:1 where the gear changeover is programmable (higher for sports mode).
The Tesla transmission has a 9.73:1 reduction.
Efficiency related motor heating is not the issue limiting Teslas performance,
...it is the heating of the battery and inverter at the high currents (1500A) demanded for 500kW output.
Wow - at this ratio, the motor RPM is about 21,000 at 95 mph assuming 245/45R19 tires. Does this reduction include the differential? At 21,000 RPM you are smoking a lot of things, and the noise is certainly not so pleasant (if you can hear that frequency!). This is not a good idea and makes the drivetrain costlier than it should be.

Dual (or even triple) 'parallel' reduction is the way to go. Should make the gearheads happy.

Yes, the cells are the limit at 5C -- see my calculations in a post above.
His dyno # was 588hp, not kW. And wheel power is measured the same regardless of the power plant; engine (ICE) or electric motor or steam engine. hp or kW are just units. Power is the same .

major
That 40kW at standstill is just the launch mode holding the car against the brake prior to launch..for a fraction of a second.
Where are you getting your figures from ?..
Tesla motor is at 18,000 rpm at 152 mph..
...so about 10,000 rpm at 95mph.

Oh and yes, power is power Hp, kW , ICE, Electric, all the same .
They may "feel" different, but when measured they are the same.That is often due to the different Torque characteristics of an electric drive.
People also get confused with dyno "correction" factors for ICE tests which are not needed for EVs
The cells can output this max level of current draw (5-6C) for the 10-15 seconds needed to run a 1/4 mile , so that is not the cause of reduced performance .
(In "Ludicrous" mode, the car actually pre-heats the battery pack to improve the discharge capeability, before a run is enabled)
However , it is true that the car has power limiting safety mode for protection of the battery, inverter, and motor , but these only seem to kick in after several minutes of high performance operation.
So are you saying that there is no reduced performance in 1/4 mile? I find it mind-boggling that they would pre-heat the cells.

At 1,500A, the pack is generating 135 kW. Do you know the cooling capacity of the system for the battery pack? It would have to be at least 100 kW. So that may explain where the missing power is going. I tend to think that the limiting factor will be the cooling of the battery pack, and that should start kicking in after maybe 30 seconds. Has anyone seen the temperature chart (for the inside of the battery :D) at these rates?
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