[Toretto]

Hello you awesome people,

I'm on the hunt for lots of info to build a very special car with very special needs.
Our small team wants to build a specific car to raise funds for an organization focused on children's wellbeing.

Of course we need to check the viability and cost involved, to inform our sponsors. You could consider this a charity start-up.

The team is technically, mechanically, and fabricationally (is that even a word?) skilled. Help is all around us.

The car in question is a 90's compact car, small petrol engine, manual gearbox, fwd, 1000kg driveable. It has a smaller tire size. (185cm circumference).

The Aerodynamics will be taken care of to bring it to much higher levels of efficiency.
The car will be purpose built, so no extra weight, no luxery for the driver... Basically, an empty shell to build on.

The car will be used for international long distance Road rallies. (+10h driving) The goal is to have a large range, short charging time, and high speeds. Since the end goal is the lowest time to arrival.
So charge fast, drive fast (sub 120mph). And efficient

I am a petrolhead at heart and this electric stuff is very new to me.. but basically the build has yet to start so we are open to any direction regarding parts etc.
So here are the questions I hope you can answer before we continue.

Efficiency factors:

- tire size, does it make much of a difference to change circumference / width
(To like i3, 155 wide, 220cm circumference).
I know it does with an ICE, so I'm guessing YES

- is there an efficient rev range in electric motors?

- size of motor or way of driving for longest range?

- most efficient air / water cooled Netgain?
HyPer9 is available in Europe.

- any other motors you would advise? Preferably available with controller as pack

- gearbox or direct drive? (HyPer9 diff 1:5 or 1:7)
See also 2nd question/ efficient rev range

- gearbox with straight cut gears worth the investment?

- is rwd more efficient in EV's ( enough to convert, because I could)?

- I understand Tesla units are the most efficient, but need a very expensive controller? And they are also aircooled?

Range:

- size & type of battery pack (I'm thinking Tesla all day long?)
You guys probably can advise when the weight outweighs the advantages of range.
I think the car could haul about 16 Tesla modules.
We would love to surpass 400miles range.

- is a 130v motor more/less efficient than a 400v with the same battery pack (say 16 cells, differently connected of course )

- dual packs, dual loading system? Halve the charging time.

- what would be the charging (stopped) time, and to what % would you advise loading?

- is it possible to add an extra pack when a very long run is planned? (I don't mean plug&play, since there is cooling etc...)

- solar panels on car efficient? kWh?

Thank you for answering all the previous.
I thought it was best to ask most questions at once, instead of scattered throughout the thread.
There is, however, more to come.

Can you please advise before we proceed so we can steer this build in the right direction before electrifying?
We really need the expertise on this forum to succeed...
We would thus like to eliminate most of trial&error and go straight to Kick-Ass build/ end product.

I have been reading A LOT already (most of it on this forum, love the Wiki), please excuse me for wanting to repeat the same questions (if that sort of thing annoys you). But I would rather have all the answers in one place to document.

That way we can anticipate (and stretch) the budget.
And this makes it also possible for everybody interested or involved to understand the complete build (not just the person who did al the research. aka myself) and form their opninions on all the options and considerations. Hopefully you all understand.

So hey, what would be the setup of YOUR dreams for our goals?

Thank you all very very much!

 

[Toretto]

You'll get more funds into the children's hands by handing over the project money.

Your goals are impossible. 10h rally with an electric? No way.

Well where's the fun in that?
+ There is no way sponsors will pay anywhere near the same amounts without publicity involved ...

I'm sorry I should have stated the rallies are 10+h of driving time NOT including charging stops.
Hence the other questions. Because we would like to somehow keep up with the pace.

Therefore we are exploring the possibility to twin charge separate packs in public chargers

 

[Toretto]

Thank you brian_
The hyper 9 is just easy available here. There is also a watercooled option.

We will take a look at the leaf motor specs and availability here.

Is it doable to couple several Original battery packs together? Say 2x 40kw leaf batteries. Does this require a special controller?

 

[Toretto]

So I've been reading up on the leaf option.
It seems they are available at around €2000.

It is not an option to buy a complete car and transfer all the gear. So what would we need to source extra?
From what I read

• there is a need for an external controller. But the complete drivetrain from charger to inverter and motor + "drive gear" is useable
• the external controller only works from my2013 (correct?)

What would be the build sheet with a complete Leaf drivetrain with self made battery packs.

Would it be adviseable to ditch the charger and install another one? Or is that insane.
The height of the complete assembly may pose a problem. And they are cheaper without charger on top

In any case, the Leaf route seems a viable option.

 

[Toretto]

Thanks guys for your input

The aero side of things we've got covered.
I've read the books, watched the video's, joined the ecomodder forum recently (long time lurker) and the team is very skilled to make it all happen.

So now we've got to cover the Driveline side of things.

Electric land cruiser, you have the leaf engine right?

 

[Toretto]

Yes I'm using a LEAF motor as well as other parts and a Resolve-EV controller. It would be a good choice for you IMO as you could drop the FWD drivetrain in the front of another FWD car pretty easily. Also as to your question which is better FWD or RWD. It doesn't matter if the drivetrain is the same but typically RWD cars use a drive shaft and rear differential which reduce efficiency quite a bit. On the other hand RWD cars like the MR2 or Fiero use the same drivetrain as a FWD car, just in the back. Those have the same efficiency as a typical FWD car. For your project whatever is easiest, lightest, and simplest is best.

Do you have a vehicle yet or are you still looking?

Well in fwd you always have the extra losses (=less efficient) because of the angles the driveshafts turn at. Percentage-wise this will be the same with an ICE or electric. I was just wondering how sensitive an electric drivetrain is to all of this. But then when wanting to maximize range I guess I answered my own question. The other option is to transversely mount the engine in the back axle as you suggest. But I would rather stay away from all this.
Fabricating difficulties aside this sounds like a nightmare to legalize for road use.

We are dead set on a car but still have to buy the right example.

 

[Toretto]

If you can fit 16 modules, then you should be using a Tesla drive unit. More efficient and more powerful than a low-voltage motor, plus then you just have series connections at the module level, which is more reliable.

16 modules, Tesla small drive unit, no gearbox (drive unit has an integrated differential), no onboard charger (weight reduction). DC fast charging is actually simpler on the vehicle side as all the high voltage AC/DC conversion circuitry is handled by the fast charging station.

You could probably get 400 miles of range with such a setup. Possibly more.

Do we need a separate controller?

 

[Toretto]

Yes!
It's this kind of specific info we need. Exactly what type of controller to use the Tesla unit and Which bms etc. We need to make a build list to calculatie cost.
But for the moment we are a bit lost, even after binge-reading.

The goal of this build is crossing countries. When Stated sub 120mph, I meant to say we're not building this car to compete with the speeds tesla's are capable of. Sustained 80 - 90 mph is probably more the goal.
The real race (when driven along with ICE Cars) is limiting stopped charging time. So that's our goal along with creating a more Aerodynamic car than any Tesla.
So we'll start with a small frontal area.

Since we want publicity and awareness, we need a theme that will stick internationally with locals.
So true to name (Toretto foundation) we are running a '94 Honda Civic coupe WITHOUT spoon engine.

Name and car is not enough, hence the conversion to electric. Now that's a complete story the people will remember when reading or hearing about it. And that's our end goal.

This is me, a petrolhead, doing what he loves and supporting a very good cause which I hold very dear.
This takes up all my spare time and there are no personal benefits. I'm asking all these questions so you can please help us help children.

This is the only way I know how to really make myself useful for this charity and raise funds.

So what we are asking is specific build details for Running either a leaf engine or a Tesla SDU.
(Will check how available and expensive Tesla's are)

500KG batteries is really stretching it, so less may be more desirable. The real race, as said, is minimizing charge time. We maximize driving time by improving aero. However this is not a hypermiling endeavour. So the throttle will be punched sometimes.

Thanks all for reading and supporting. This is a wonderfull community

 

[Toretto]

Thanks for your replies.
80mph is completely legal over here. So we are talking open road rallies. (It's a rally, not a race) Point to Point, choose your own route and stops.

The LEAF route seems more and more viable. The complete engines are available at reasonable prices. Both the 80kw and 110kw versions. However. To control these engines outside of a Leaf there are certain options

Now I would like to control the engine beyond 10k rpm. I suppose that the maximum kw's are still regulated by the inverter and not adaptable by either
-Thunderstruck VCU
-Resolve EV
-Johannes hubner. Openinverter
- Paul Holmes

Do any of these implement regenerative braking?
What is our best option for simplicity/ most user friendly

What options are there for a basic Dash for battery status, range, rpm etc...
Odometer would be nice

 

[Toretto]

Thanks all!

do you have a support vehicle driving with you?
... if you mate the motor to the stock gearbox (which then lets you use stock driveshafts etc)
It would possibly be worthwhile pulling the gearbox apart and removing any of the gears you wont be using, eg 1st, 2nd and 5th, to reduce any rolling friction in the box.

This is a tortoise and hare race, you are not the hare. slow(ish) and steady will get you over the line.

Support vehicle is possible if the swappable battery pack is an option. Trailer pack is a no-go.

I was leaning towards using the complete Leaf unit with it's 'gearbox' as a whole. And adapting the driveshafts.

It seems more straightforward than machining Parts to use the stock gearbox

I'd go with a fast swap pack from a support vehicle that has a big diesel generator on it.

Is this possible? To swap an extra pack in during a stop? Can you just implement this in the BMS ?

Is it possible to have a permanent Tesla pack, and another 4 Non-Tesla cells in the trunk which are not cooled like Leaf cells?

Because if there are 2 identical packs they can be swapped routinely and charged en route (as you suggest)

 

[Toretto]

... use permanent magnet synchronous motors....

Is that what the leaf motor is?

 

[Toretto]

The Leaf has 30% worse efficiency in that chart, so why does it matter when efficiency was allegedly at the top of your list of requirements?

Make a list of priorities, stop moving the cheese with confirmation bias.

Yes, as a car the leaf has 30% worse efficiency. We just need the drive unit. Not the terrible body and batteries etc...

They are available, relatively cheap, there is lots of support on this forum, and People have had very decent results with them.

The whole build has to be feasible aswell.

As far as moving the cheese, I'm learning here Remy ....

 

[Toretto]

You might be disappointed with the Leaf motor View attachment 127526

Yes, but there are options to Rev them beyond the Original 10.000rpm, which is what I'm after.

Results have been positive with the leaf performance, so I read

 

[Toretto]

If this was a real thing I would choose a 2011/2012 Leaf that had a dead battery and then buy a couple 40kwh leaf batteries. You could probably actually swap a Leaf battery on the side of the road in 10-15 minutes with a couple guys who had practiced it.

Then add taller wheels/tires like brain said if you really need more than 94 MPH (gen 1 LEAFs go 94).

However I'm beginning to realize that this isn't anything. Road rallies and time trials etc are real but you need to have permission from local authorities and sponsors and this electric fast and furious meme doesn't have any of that.

Clearly we live in very different places. these rallies are organized all over the world every single week. I don't have to organize this myself.
We are hours away from autobahn & Nürburgring for spirited drives

You have not read all the info I've provided. In the OP I already mention the large BMW i3 tires.

The only reason for a theme is publicity, so we can offer our sponsors coverage on multiple channels for their brand. And every penny that is not spent building the car will go to this charity. Every event will hopefully attract new sponsors, if we do our best to reach (social) media. We already have a marketing bureau with social media expertise on board! In the end we can even auction off the car.

Do you know how many record attempts for charity there are annually? That's our 'business model' but without the record.

I understand People are sceptic. You're not the first one hete to question my motives. But I'm quitting my dayjob to make this happen, and leaning on my spouse to provide. Now I don't like being this open hearted online. But this should show you how bad I want to make this happen. I was a child once... I could have benefited from the work this organization does today, but not back then.

The reason I've joined this forum is to reach out for help to get the car planned and built. Because the conversion companies are very withholding on information. Even when they sell Parts online....
The best way you ask your help is by providing all the requirements and goals...

If you have questions please feel free to ask them.
If you question me or this endeavour, please leave. We can do without negativity.

If you have the answers to our questions, please share your knowledge. We appreciate it very much!

And thanks to everybody who is thinking along. Including you, Land Cruiser

 

[Toretto]

No free lunch. Your efficiency will turn to crap if you crank the revs up, unless you load up on more battery, which also makes your efficiency turn to crap.

I'd also hypothesize the Cd on a Leaf is better than on your proposed Honda Civic. Also am at a loss why you wouldn't just mod a Leaf for your playtime rally.

So the better route is coupling an em57 with the original gearbox?

Cd on a Leaf is better than a stock '94 Civic for sure. But we are building the car for aero, incredible results have been booked with these gen 5 Civics. See ecomodder forum.
We will drop Cd way below the leaf's value. Not to mention the difference in frontal area. Which I'm sure you know has an equally important role since
Total drag = frontal area x Cd.

Modding a Leaf gets you no publicity. You need a story that will stick with the people. When I leave after giving my pitch to possible sponsors, I want them to remember a year from now... Psychology 101, people remember stories.

By the way:
Do you have an engineering background Remy? Because I've noticed rather rapidly that you have the answer to pretty much every question asked on this forum. And, the way you treat people sometimes aside, I find it really great that you take time to help out on this forum.

Same to you @brian_ but without the attitude

 

[Toretto]

Haha, agree to disagree Remy.
A leaf will get no coverage here. Better chances of getting your story in radio stations by building a Lada. And what you describe is the definition of 'ricer' in Europe.

Tha advantage of the Civic is we can start with the bare shell and not add luxury's.
In the leaf we are bound by complex electronics and their weight.

Anyway, the theme is set. So on with building the thing....

Several of us here do. I'm the autistic one 🤓

Nissan should be throwing money at you to do it.

Are you really?
And, no they won't 😁

 

[Toretto]

Can-bus, doorlocks, modules, full wiring harness, Abs, stability program, safety electronics, aircon, multimedia, you know...modern technology...

We need lights and perhaps a Heater.
But that's beside the Point. The car is a Civic.
We are not about to create our own Bodykit for a damn leaf.. and didn't everyone say to avoid the leaf batteries?

This is all seriously not helpful

 

[Toretto]

I am NOT building a Leaf.
I did not ask for a business plan.
This is very frustrating.

If the leaf unit is not able to be operated from a single external module we might have to look beyond that. The build plan is still open for change in any direction.

Perhaps the single module approach is possible on a Tesla SDU.

But please stop forcing your opinions on the one part I asked no questions about.

 

[Toretto]

A controller that regulates the workings of the inverter/ motor. Like an the ECU for an engine. Just a single controller to drive the car.
What more do you need besides throttle, brake, and ignition signals?

 

[Toretto]

These are commonly called a "VCU" (vehicle control unit) in EV conversions, and are offered for the most common drive units & inverters, which are the old Model S/X induction units, the Nissan Leaf, and now the Tesla Model 3.

Another example is the Dilithium VCU from Thunderstruck; that's not an endorsement at all, just the first example that came to mind with a supplier link.

Thank you brian, I am looking into that, (see post #27 below) but was unsure if this enabled me to ditch all but drivetrain. So yes, this is basically a stand-alone motor management unit. Thank you

I'm searching which one of the 4 options would be best for this build.

• The Resolve vcu seems limited to 30kw pack and all stock hardware, since I want to use only the drivetrain....
• Openinverter is not too far geographically, perhaps an advantage.
• Thunderstruck seems the best/ most complete for now

Now I would like to control the engine beyond 10k rpm. I suppose that the maximum kw's are still regulated by the inverter and not adaptable by either
-Thunderstruck VCU
-Resolve EV
-Johannes hubner. Openinverter
- Paul Holmes

Do any of these implement regenerative braking?
What is our best option for simplicity/ most user friendly

As much as we would love to run Tesla batteries, there is an abundance problem. We want to be able to add the full size pack for long runs, but do not need that type of range daily. So permanently installing 16 Tesla cells will not be possible.

Do we stay away from air cooled cells for the permanent pack? Somebody here said that this is the achilles heel on the leaf packs.

Can we, realistically, use 3 separate packs in 1 car?