[PlanB]

I've been sniffing around 1998 model toyota Celicas Ryan, ready availability in the used car market & under 1000kg as an EV. There are some smaller alternatives but sharing the road with 2 tonne SUVs in a modified suzuki cappuccino scares the daylights out of me.
Sounds like I'm 6 to 12 months behind you progress wise, but it's good to have a pathfinder.
I can't help dreaming about what it would be like to have 2 of these puppies in a vehicle for a nice AWD EV but that's getting seriously ahead of myself.
Hope your conversion goes well. It's a big project, hope I've got the where with all to pull it off.

 

[altimahybrid]

I have an interesting idea for the Highlander rear diff/motor - can it be installed into an existing FWD hybrid? This could allow for AWD capability as well as improved performance (more torque and HP overall).

For example, I have an Altima Hybrid, but any FWD hybrid could be a potential use case, such as the Camry Hybrid or Prius.

 

[jddcircuit]

I have an interesting idea for the Highlander rear diff/motor - can it be installed into an existing FWD hybrid? This could allow for AWD capability as well as improved performance (more torque and HP overall).

For example, I have an Altima Hybrid, but any FWD hybrid could be a potential use case, such as the Camry Hybrid or Prius.

I think so.

Thanks for bumping this thread up. I would like to get my hands on one of these. I am having some success controlling the Prius Transaxle and I would assume this motor is similar but I like the package.

It is possible it may not have resolvers for position feedback if it is only for torque boost once rolling. It is pretty easy to maintain sync using the back emf once the motor is spinning for these types of motors. Getting low end torque control would benefit from resolver position feedback.

I skimmed through the thread quickly so I probably missed many specs.

Thanks
Jeff

 

[Ryan800]

This would make a very expensive way to add awd to your car unless you plan to build your own controller. It would also take a lot of fab work, unless you choose a car the already has an awd trim and there happens to be space for this motor without moving the fuel tank. The bulk of the motor sits forward of the axle. It goes in reverse, but lifetime might be reduced due to poor lubrication.

JDD, it does have a resolver. And a thermistor. I'm running it at 90Arms max right now and it pulls my 2300lb car around, but starts and hills are very slow. I'm not sure how much more you would want to put through it, I think OEM application runs 60-80Arms max.

How difficult is it to remove the extra stuff from the front transaxle? I haven't tried yet, but I think that's your better bet. Also, it seems more convenient to use a lower voltage hybrid (Fords operate around 300V).

 

[jddcircuit]

Ryan,

So you have this pushing your car. I haven't found anyone else using toyota motors. This is exciting for me and I would like to share some experience with you since I don't fully understand everything that I am experiencing.

I have been working with a prius transaxle that I got as junk from a local shop. I assume the internals are extremely similar if not identical with yours. I got it to push my car around the block using 4 old 12volt lead acid batteries. It has been quite a learning process for me.

What inverter are you using? I am using the gen1 prius and my own PWM controller.

I seem to have had some torque issues but discovered that advancing my commutation angle by 30 degrees gave me a lot lot more starting torque. I since read on line that this is due to the reluctance of the rotor.

Are you having to compensate for this torque vector interaction? Are you implementing any type of Max Torque Min Current algorithm?

I hope to have my motor back in my car very soon for more testing. I have 48 lithium cells that I am going to start out with and then scale up from there in voltage.

Best Regards
Jeff

 

[Ryan800]

Jeff, I'm using the Tritium controller, so I haven't actually worked with the control algorithm. I have learned a few things though and I have lots more issues to work though. I'll PM you with more details.

The reports by Oak Ridge National Lab on the Toyota hybrid system are interesting to read - google "ornl toyota". I didn't see anything specific about the 2003 prius motor, but the newer camry system was measured and peak torque occurs at 35 degrees.

 

[jddcircuit]

Jeff, I'm using the Tritium controller, so I haven't actually worked with the control algorithm. I have learned a few things though and I have lots more issues to work though. I'll PM you with more details.

The reports by Oak Ridge National Lab on the Toyota hybrid system are interesting to read - google "ornl toyota". I didn't see anything specific about the 2003 prius motor, but the newer camry system was measured and peak torque occurs at 35 degrees.

I stumbled across the offset by trial and error wondering why I wasn't seeing the performance I expected. I think that might be the report I read that pointed out the 35 degree offset which explained my observations.

I am using the Prius inverter with an Arduino control board and a Resolver to Digital demo kit board. I don't have the phase current control working yet but it is on my long list of issues.

I am very interested in your details.

Thanks
jeff

 

[PlanB]

Greetings Guys. Just a quick update for you Ryan on my transaxle. Tritium won't sell me the HV version of their wavesculptor & I figure I need 650v DC to get decent torque. I might have found a commercial VFD that can do the job, supposed to be driving up to Brisbane later this month to check it out.

Just a quick question re the original DC voltage applied to this motor in the Lexus. The Lexus batteries are listed as 288v with a voltage doubler between them & the motor. Does that mean the DC supply to it was actually 2 x 288 = 576v?

 

[Ryan800]

No, the DC/DC converter more than doubles the voltage to the controller, to as much as 650V (I think the output voltage is actually variable depending on need, but I could be wrong). 500V max in early Prius models.

Be careful though. The full 650V will give you more torque at higher rpm, but it won't increase the low speed maximum torque. You have to run more amps through the motor to do that, which at some point will demagnetize the magnets. Tritium will supply up to 360Arms, so that's not the problem. I have it limited to 80Arms right now, and it's slow. And my car only weights 2300lbs/1050kg. I could increase that, especially in winter, but I hate to find the motor's limit the hard way. Maybe 100A would be fine, but if not I've just ruined my motor. remember that it's only rated at 100ft-lb, which is not much starting torque with 6.8:1 ratio.

Basically, it's a neighborhood vehicle until I get a bigger motor in there. I know you spent a lot to get that motor over there, but maybe Ford sells hybrids there? Those are designed for 300V and good power, so they're a good match for the Tritium. You just have to remove the extras.

One last warning is make sure the controller you buy is compatible with IPM motors. I'm discovering that they're a little trickier than induction or surface mounted PM motors.

That said if the price works out and you're ok with sluggish performance, go for it!

 

[PlanB]

Thanks for the wise words Ryan, TJ said he thought this motor was a pup after he tested it & I should have realised before now that starting torque wouldn't improve with the higher voltage. Plus coming up with a 650v battery pack & BMS was proving to be hard as well.
Better I quit now while I'm only $1k down than throw more money at this pipe dream. A mate of mine is buying himself a Leaf, I might do likewise & be done with it if his goes as well as it sounds.
Is your Saturn really that much of a slug? 100ftlb pulling 2300lb is 23lb/ftlb while the Leaf has 207 ftlb for 3500lb or 17lb/ftlb, which means yours is only (23-17)/23 = 26% down on the Leaf or, looking at it the other way, the Leaf is only (23-17)/17 = 35% zippyer?

 

[Ryan800]

My car has 100*7 = 700 ft-lb starting torque more or less, but the leaf has 200*8=1600. The nissan is heavier but not that much. The difference is enough that people notice something is up if I have to start on a hill at the front of a line of traffic. It's not undriveable though.

 

[mmark666]

I tried to find the weight of the highlander diff/motor unit, but couldn't find any information. Do you know how heavy it is (approximately is fine)? I like to entertain the idea of using two in an AWD conversion...

 

[Ryan800]

90 pounds, you don't even need a lift to put it in the car.

 

[mmark666]

90 pounds? wow, that's very nice. That's not much more than a normal differential. And two should drive a smaller car like an Audi TT or (pick your favorite small car with AWD) nicely...

 

[PlanB]

I always thought a pair would be nice too, being relatively light & easy to fit but twin controllers to run them could be expensive.

So what's the model of this Ford you have stateside with the 360v extra grunt electric motor in it Ryan? Is it like a Prius M1 motor where you have to remove it from the ICE then machine up a bearing end plate or is it a lift out like the Lexus unit we have now?

 

[Ryan800]

Unfortunately it's the front kind like in the Prius so you have to remove the extra crap. They are in the Ford Excape and Ford Fusion hybrids, I think in Australia the Fusion is called a Mondeo but it looks like maybe they don't offer any hybrid models in Australia, but maybe I'm missing something.

The older ones (before 2009) used 330V and the after that they switched to a 270 or 300 volts.

 

[PlanB]

Ryan I'm scratching me head what to do next here. I really like the idea of a drop in electric transaxle but it seems from your experience with the Saturn that 900Nm of starting torque from the Rx400H unit just isn't enough for a 1000kg car. This really puzzles me beacause the AC24LS/AT1200 combo that I first looked at way back in 2009 was about the same (92Nm x 10:1 = 920Nm) & the now defunct Azure Dynamics claimed it was good for vehicles up to 1600kg.
Anyway I'm now wondering about a Tritium motor/controller combo again, but I need a differential to go with it. Do you know what the availability of the Borg Warner 31-03 (http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/tools/7953) is like in the USA? I saw a post for them on this forum priced at $1300 a piece but it seems to be a dead end.

 

[Batterypoweredtoad]

Ryan, Is it possible you are just limiting your amps too much and not getting the full torque of the motor? I don't have the time to search right now but I believe one of the documents linked earlier in the thread may list the amps required for the stated torque.

 

[Ryan800]

PlanB, those BorgWarner units look pretty cool but I have no idea how to get one. I'm sure it's possible, I know a guy with an EV1 motor transmission that he got from a dealership that had it lying around and didn't know what to do with it, but it seems like just coincidence that he found one. Same for Tesla and Leaf stuff. There was a post on here a while back where someone said they bought a pretty trashed Leaf for $15k, so they're just not going to be junkyard material for a while.

Toad, that's definitely possible, I haven't done much to verify the current capacity of the motor, and haven't experimented much either. But 50kW at 650V DC bus comes out to 63A phase current, so I'm already likely pushing it a little at 80A. Also, the high voltage electrical connector has pretty small conductors. I've been busy lately and have been daily driving my car, but I'll experiment with it more at some point.

 

[PlanB]

I took the end plate of my transaxle today Ryan, it's got 12 wires connected to each of the 3 motor terminals. Does anybody know how an 8 pole motor can have 36 coil ends? I was just wondering it if it might be possible to get it to run better on a 375v pack by working some sort of wye to delta conversion or something?