DIY Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This EV stuff is confusing. I think it'd help if the group came as close to a consensus as possible in describing and/or featuring a baseline(s) vehicle. For example, a small pickup with a motor, controller and batteries with reasonable performance. The distributor(s) and prices should be included. After that, performance gains or losses could be discussed so that one could compare their vehicle and ideas- such as weight of vehicle, kWh, battery pack voltage, etc.

Example:


Total: $7702

Performance estimate:

  • Range: 40 miles (combined driving)
  • Power: 80 kWh
  • Acceleration: slightly less than original vehicle
  • Top speed: 60 MPH
  • Battery replacement: 3.5 years
I don't know if these are reasonable numbers. You get the idea? I think a comparison (as direct as possible) with lithium-ion batteries should be the next step.

Thanks,
Kurt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I'm not sure what goal this is going to help achieve. So we make up an imaginary vehicle, and do what with it? I'm not clear on the idea.
The goal is to make it easier for rookies to fairly intelligently discuss and learn about EVs so it's easier to get to the parts-gathering phase.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Hi sgt,

Did you read this http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=669 Or get a book on the subject? There are a lot of us here to help, but we can't do it all. You have to start.

Regards,

major
Hi,
Thanks for the reminder to go through the Wiki information. I got caught up in looking at threads and such and forgot to go back to that.

I don't think I'm asking anyone to do it all. I have started, but it doesn't feel cohesive. It seems like I've looked a lot but not learned much. Yes, ultimately the burden is on me, but I think having some ideas of baseline vehicles would be a good tool for people to wrap their mind around EVs. No, I haven't dug up my old books. But then again, this is the Internet Age, so we typically want to try to find information online.

Another way to think of baseline vehicles would be- if you were to design an EV for Joe Commuter, what would it be? Joe Commuter wants average range, average acceleration, and average cost using average components.

Or, to look at it another way- it's similar to designing a cookie cutter hot rod. Buy a fiberglas '32 Ford body, aftermarket frame, crate Chevy 350 with Holley 650 carb, Erson RV cam and Hooker headers, Art Morrison turbo350 trans, and Currie Ford 9" rear end.

Thanks,
Kurt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
A few suppliers offer turn key kits with everything needed to complete the conversion. I studied all kit parts lists that I could find to get a feel for the scope of the project.

Just like building a street rod, skills vary. Keeping a notebook is helpful to refer back to without having to research things again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
511 Posts
Hi,
Thanks for the reminder to go through the Wiki information. I got caught up in looking at threads and such and forgot to go back to that.

I don't think I'm asking anyone to do it all. I have started, but it doesn't feel cohesive. It seems like I've looked a lot but not learned much. Yes, ultimately the burden is on me, but I think having some ideas of baseline vehicles would be a good tool for people to wrap their mind around EVs. No, I haven't dug up my old books. But then again, this is the Internet Age, so we typically want to try to find information online.

Another way to think of baseline vehicles would be- if you were to design an EV for Joe Commuter, what would it be? Joe Commuter wants average range, average acceleration, and average cost using average components.

Or, to look at it another way- it's similar to designing a cookie cutter hot rod. Buy a fiberglas '32 Ford body, aftermarket frame, crate Chevy 350 with Holley 650 carb, Erson RV cam and Hooker headers, Art Morrison turbo350 trans, and Currie Ford 9" rear end.

Thanks,
Kurt
Have you had a look at the garage? The completed vehicles in there should give you a wide variety of ideas as to what you can expect. There's always EValbum.com too.
 

·
Admin: 'one of many'
Joined
·
4,838 Posts
One of the difficulties of what you are asking for is the even wider variety of needs then there are variety of possibilities.

Baseline vehicles are so dependednt on personal requirement, need, affordability, availability, etc.

Even ease of convertion can't be pinned down.

One person may find it easiest to swap the ICE from their Ford for a fork lift motor and curtis controller while another may find it easy to design and build an ac set up.
Some of us find it easier to design a whole vehicle, from the ground up, around the components that are already lying around in the garage while others would rather a conversion company handled everything.

I can give you my 'base line' if you think it will help.

Single seater commuter vehicle
Range: 70 miles at 70mph
Motor: either 9" or 12" just because I already have them
Controller: whatever comes up cheap on Ebay or I'll build the Open Revolt
Batteries: Has to be lithium for the range
Charger: Ummmm, don't know
BMS: see above
Donor vehicle: Scratch built as nothing else seems to fit the requirements

The level of complexity depends on personal skills and experience so I am keeping it within what I can do with a little help. Others may say that programming a controller is the easiest bit whereas I would say building the chassis and suspension is the easiest.

In terms of a 'base line' vehicle it is pretty useless for most people who are not me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
511 Posts
I guess my confusion stems from this: if lots of working examples to chose from and see what you like best is confusing, how does having one example that's no where near what you want less confusing?

Now I know all about this 96v light pickup with flooded lead acid batteries. But I want to convert a 1,200 lbs two seater that can't cary all that lead. So you tell me to look at lithium, but now I've got a motor sized for a 2,500 lbs light truck. So you tell me to get a different motor. Now my motor is different, so my controller should probably be different. My batteries are differnt, so my charger is different. There's nothing left of the donor specs because I don't want the donor car, I want my car.

If you want a generic EV to build, I'd say the Chevy S10. Lots of conversions on it, kits are available, etc. If you want your car, well, you'll have to learn into it. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,494 Posts
This EV stuff is confusing. I think it'd help if the group came as close to a consensus as possible in describing and/or featuring a baseline(s) vehicle. For example, a small pickup with a motor, controller and batteries with reasonable performance. The distributor(s) and prices should be included. After that, performance gains or losses could be discussed so that one could compare their vehicle and ideas- such as weight of vehicle, kWh, battery pack voltage, etc.

Example:


Total: $7702

Performance estimate:

  • Range: 40 miles (combined driving)
  • Power: 80 kWh
  • Acceleration: slightly less than original vehicle
  • Top speed: 60 MPH
  • Battery replacement: 3.5 years
I don't know if these are reasonable numbers. You get the idea? I think a comparison (as direct as possible) with lithium-ion batteries should be the next step.

Thanks,
Kurt
One thing is for sure, you wont be getting 40 miles out of 144 volts worth of 68Ah AGM batteries in a truck... ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
One thing is for sure, you wont be getting 40 miles out of 144 volts worth of 68Ah AGM batteries in a truck... ;)
Actually, that pretty much sums up the issue: I don't have a feel for what's reasonable. And, in looking in the Garage and the EV Album there seem to be more unfinished, "I don't have actual numbers" builds than finished with real data builds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I guess my confusion stems from this: if lots of working examples to chose from and see what you like best is confusing, how does having one example that's no where near what you want less confusing? ...
There aren't lots of working examples to choose from.

How can you say that a generic example would be nowhere near what I want?

rillip3 said:
Now I know all about this 96v light pickup with flooded lead acid batteries. But I want to convert a 1,200 lbs two seater that can't cary all that lead. So you tell me to look at lithium, but now I've got a motor sized for a 2,500 lbs light truck. So you tell me to get a different motor. Now my motor is different, so my controller should probably be different. My batteries are differnt, so my charger is different. There's nothing left of the donor specs because I don't want the donor car, I want my car.

If you want a generic EV to build, I'd say the Chevy S10. Lots of conversions on it, kits are available, etc. If you want your car, well, you'll have to learn into it. :)
The few people that have answered this thread seem to have missed the point. The whole idea of the baseline vehicle is to make it easier for rookies to study one vehicle so they might learn the basics of EVs more quickly. Once they have done that they would likely find it easier to make changes for different vehicles. The idea is not to say, "Here you go, rookie, here's the EV for you- it's DIYelectricar-approved. It's the consensus EV."

I'll look at conversion kits and see if they give a satisfactory explanation of why the components were chosen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
One of the difficulties of what you are asking for is the even wider variety of needs then there are variety of possibilities.

Baseline vehicles are so dependednt on personal requirement, need, affordability, availability, etc.

Even ease of convertion can't be pinned down.

One person may find it easiest to swap the ICE from their Ford for a fork lift motor and curtis controller while another may find it easy to design and build an ac set up.
Some of us find it easier to design a whole vehicle, from the ground up, around the components that are already lying around in the garage while others would rather a conversion company handled everything.

I can give you my 'base line' if you think it will help.

Single seater commuter vehicle
Range: 70 miles at 70mph
Motor: either 9" or 12" just because I already have them
Controller: whatever comes up cheap on Ebay or I'll build the Open Revolt
Batteries: Has to be lithium for the range
Charger: Ummmm, don't know
BMS: see above
Donor vehicle: Scratch built as nothing else seems to fit the requirements

The level of complexity depends on personal skills and experience so I am keeping it within what I can do with a little help. Others may say that programming a controller is the easiest bit whereas I would say building the chassis and suspension is the easiest.

In terms of a 'base line' vehicle it is pretty useless for most people who are not me.
My last reply applies similarly here, too:

The few people that have answered this thread seem to have missed the point. The whole idea of the baseline vehicle is to make it easier for rookies to study one vehicle so they might learn the basics of EVs more quickly. Once they have done that they would likely find it easier to make changes for different vehicles. The idea is not to say, "Here you go, rookie, here's the EV for you- it's DIYelectricar-approved. It's the consensus EV."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,293 Posts
The problem is there is no single 'baseline vehicle', and the decision tree splits rapidly depending on user priorities of performance/range/cost.

I guess you could start with the basic assumption that the goal is a 'suburban commuter' with 30-50 mile range, moderate performance, and minimum cost. Starting there, the first decision is truck, or 'small hatchback'... then you can develop a 'standard package'.

For example, for a 'small hatchback' being the most economical, 4-seater, likely to get 50 mile range at the lowest price with:

- 8" DC motor
- curtis 1221 controller
- pfc or similar cheap 15 amp charger
- chennic or similar dc-dc
- adaptor from canEV.com or alternate
- misc 'bits' from any one of 6 or so retailers
- 120v worth (38x100ah) of large format LiFePO4 (thundersky/CALB)

....then you have a lot of personal preference as to whether you want to put in a little more money for higher capacity batteries, a faster charger, etc. or, higher capacity controller for better performance at higher cost.
 

·
Admin: 'one of many'
Joined
·
4,838 Posts
My last reply applies similarly here, too:

The few people that have answered this thread seem to have missed the point. The whole idea of the baseline vehicle is to make it easier for rookies to study one vehicle so they might learn the basics of EVs more quickly. Once they have done that they would likely find it easier to make changes for different vehicles. The idea is not to say, "Here you go, rookie, here's the EV for you- it's DIYelectricar-approved. It's the consensus EV."
I don't want to devalue your concerns or discourage you from asking or trying to ask the right questions but it would be a little like asking 2000 people what is a good way to get a husband or wife. There is no one answer, or even set of answers, that would help.

It is easier to look at it the other way around, which is how many of us got into conversions, and that is along the lines of:

I have a GMFord Shopper GTi with a dead 3.6 V8 but is other wise a good car. What would I need to consider to convert it to electric with a view to only doing urban short distance commutes three times a week?
We can then guide you through the possiblilties that you can look into to see what is within the range of your skill and wallet.

When I started I went through the questions of 'What is the best car to convert?' and 'What is the best motor?'.
I had no helpful answers to either except to be told that there isn't a 'best' as it all depends on everything else that only I know about what I need, can do and can afford.

I then went off and bought a Toyota MR2 and then found that it wasn't the right starting point for me so I have moved on to a different project.

My 'base line' study was to look at the many examples in Bob Brant's 'Build Your Own Electric Vehicle' book and then compare the performance and costs with existing manufactured EVs.

I then asked about the equations to work out energy, drag and power requirements and then created a spreadsheet to 'try' examples with. I am still developing that spreadsheet with Lithium and LA cells, vehicle layouts and gear ratios. It is nowhere near perfect but gives me a theoretical 'ball park' figure to work with.

It allowed me to determine that I could run my 550kg trike on 96V 100AH LiFeP04 and just about get the range and performance I need, in theory and in ideal conditions.
I don't know if this might help you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Alright, let's try this tact since people seem to be bogged down in the consensus mindset: I'm looking for info on a good pickup EV conversion. You know, an EV Album and/or DIY Electric Car Garage writeup. It should be your basic conversion, have a 30-50 mile range, reasonable acceleration, and data from being driven. I guess the main thing I'm trying to get a handle on is the Wh/mi value.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,293 Posts
Alright, let's try this tact since people seem to be bogged down in the consensus mindset: I'm looking for info on a good pickup EV conversion. You know, an EV Album and/or DIY Electric Car Garage writeup. It should be your basic conversion, have a 30-50 mile range, reasonable acceleration, and data from being driven. I guess the main thing I'm trying to get a handle on is the Wh/mi value.

well..... hate to be a nit-picker, but are you talking 'small' pickup, king cab, full size, 4wd/no? ;) The other MAJOR factor in wHr/mile will be whether you intend to go with a bed-full of 6v-fla, moderate 8v-fla for a compromise on weight/range, or pony up for LiFePO4 for best cost/mile over a 10 year life and lowest weight.

assuming a 'little' truck, the baseline I would throw out there would include:

- 9" dc motor
- curtis 1231 or similar low-cost 500 amp / 144v rated controller
- 144v worth of Li, at least 100ah to get 50+ mile range.
- other components 'to match' include:
- tranny adapter
- dc-dc
- charger
- main contacter
- circuit breaker
- 500amp fuse
- vacuum pump/system
- heater kit
- instrumentation



d
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
well..... hate to be a nit-picker, but are you talking 'small' pickup, king cab, full size, 4wd/no? ;) The other MAJOR factor in wHr/mile will be whether you intend to go with a bed-full of 6v-fla, moderate 8v-fla for a compromise on weight/range, or pony up for LiFePO4 for best cost/mile over a 10 year life and lowest weight.

assuming a 'little' truck, the baseline I would throw out there would include:

- 9" dc motor
- curtis 1231 or similar low-cost 500 amp / 144v rated controller
- 144v worth of Li, at least 100ah to get 50+ mile range.
- other components 'to match' include:
- tranny adapter
- dc-dc
- charger
- main contacter
- circuit breaker
- 500amp fuse
- vacuum pump/system
- heater kit
- instrumentation

d
Now we're gettin' somewhere. I'm thinking little truck, as in the early Ranchero weighs in at 2400 lb. But, now I'm thinking toward smaller and lighter so the battery pack would be cheaper. I have some old car parts. If I can come up with a good pickup body I just might go that direction. I'd start with a Ford Model T frame and end with a curb weight of less than a ton, maybe quite a bit less. I'm thinking I'd oversize the motor, controller and such so if I wanted to swap over to a different car I would just need to increase the battery pack.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top