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Baseline vehicle

7K views 29 replies 7 participants last post by  Woodsmith 
#1 ·
This EV stuff is confusing. I think it'd help if the group came as close to a consensus as possible in describing and/or featuring a baseline(s) vehicle. For example, a small pickup with a motor, controller and batteries with reasonable performance. The distributor(s) and prices should be included. After that, performance gains or losses could be discussed so that one could compare their vehicle and ideas- such as weight of vehicle, kWh, battery pack voltage, etc.

Example:


Total: $7702

Performance estimate:

  • Range: 40 miles (combined driving)
  • Power: 80 kWh
  • Acceleration: slightly less than original vehicle
  • Top speed: 60 MPH
  • Battery replacement: 3.5 years
I don't know if these are reasonable numbers. You get the idea? I think a comparison (as direct as possible) with lithium-ion batteries should be the next step.

Thanks,
Kurt
 
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#9 ·
One of the difficulties of what you are asking for is the even wider variety of needs then there are variety of possibilities.

Baseline vehicles are so dependednt on personal requirement, need, affordability, availability, etc.

Even ease of convertion can't be pinned down.

One person may find it easiest to swap the ICE from their Ford for a fork lift motor and curtis controller while another may find it easy to design and build an ac set up.
Some of us find it easier to design a whole vehicle, from the ground up, around the components that are already lying around in the garage while others would rather a conversion company handled everything.

I can give you my 'base line' if you think it will help.

Single seater commuter vehicle
Range: 70 miles at 70mph
Motor: either 9" or 12" just because I already have them
Controller: whatever comes up cheap on Ebay or I'll build the Open Revolt
Batteries: Has to be lithium for the range
Charger: Ummmm, don't know
BMS: see above
Donor vehicle: Scratch built as nothing else seems to fit the requirements

The level of complexity depends on personal skills and experience so I am keeping it within what I can do with a little help. Others may say that programming a controller is the easiest bit whereas I would say building the chassis and suspension is the easiest.

In terms of a 'base line' vehicle it is pretty useless for most people who are not me.
 
#14 ·
One of the difficulties of what you are asking for is the even wider variety of needs then there are variety of possibilities.

Baseline vehicles are so dependednt on personal requirement, need, affordability, availability, etc.

Even ease of convertion can't be pinned down.

One person may find it easiest to swap the ICE from their Ford for a fork lift motor and curtis controller while another may find it easy to design and build an ac set up.
Some of us find it easier to design a whole vehicle, from the ground up, around the components that are already lying around in the garage while others would rather a conversion company handled everything.

I can give you my 'base line' if you think it will help.

Single seater commuter vehicle
Range: 70 miles at 70mph
Motor: either 9" or 12" just because I already have them
Controller: whatever comes up cheap on Ebay or I'll build the Open Revolt
Batteries: Has to be lithium for the range
Charger: Ummmm, don't know
BMS: see above
Donor vehicle: Scratch built as nothing else seems to fit the requirements

The level of complexity depends on personal skills and experience so I am keeping it within what I can do with a little help. Others may say that programming a controller is the easiest bit whereas I would say building the chassis and suspension is the easiest.

In terms of a 'base line' vehicle it is pretty useless for most people who are not me.
My last reply applies similarly here, too:

The few people that have answered this thread seem to have missed the point. The whole idea of the baseline vehicle is to make it easier for rookies to study one vehicle so they might learn the basics of EVs more quickly. Once they have done that they would likely find it easier to make changes for different vehicles. The idea is not to say, "Here you go, rookie, here's the EV for you- it's DIYelectricar-approved. It's the consensus EV."
 
#10 · (Edited)
I guess my confusion stems from this: if lots of working examples to chose from and see what you like best is confusing, how does having one example that's no where near what you want less confusing?

Now I know all about this 96v light pickup with flooded lead acid batteries. But I want to convert a 1,200 lbs two seater that can't cary all that lead. So you tell me to look at lithium, but now I've got a motor sized for a 2,500 lbs light truck. So you tell me to get a different motor. Now my motor is different, so my controller should probably be different. My batteries are differnt, so my charger is different. There's nothing left of the donor specs because I don't want the donor car, I want my car.

If you want a generic EV to build, I'd say the Chevy S10. Lots of conversions on it, kits are available, etc. If you want your car, well, you'll have to learn into it. :)
 
#13 · (Edited)
I guess my confusion stems from this: if lots of working examples to chose from and see what you like best is confusing, how does having one example that's no where near what you want less confusing? ...
There aren't lots of working examples to choose from.

How can you say that a generic example would be nowhere near what I want?

rillip3 said:
Now I know all about this 96v light pickup with flooded lead acid batteries. But I want to convert a 1,200 lbs two seater that can't cary all that lead. So you tell me to look at lithium, but now I've got a motor sized for a 2,500 lbs light truck. So you tell me to get a different motor. Now my motor is different, so my controller should probably be different. My batteries are differnt, so my charger is different. There's nothing left of the donor specs because I don't want the donor car, I want my car.

If you want a generic EV to build, I'd say the Chevy S10. Lots of conversions on it, kits are available, etc. If you want your car, well, you'll have to learn into it. :)
The few people that have answered this thread seem to have missed the point. The whole idea of the baseline vehicle is to make it easier for rookies to study one vehicle so they might learn the basics of EVs more quickly. Once they have done that they would likely find it easier to make changes for different vehicles. The idea is not to say, "Here you go, rookie, here's the EV for you- it's DIYelectricar-approved. It's the consensus EV."

I'll look at conversion kits and see if they give a satisfactory explanation of why the components were chosen.
 
#11 ·
This EV stuff is confusing. I think it'd help if the group came as close to a consensus as possible in describing and/or featuring a baseline(s) vehicle. For example, a small pickup with a motor, controller and batteries with reasonable performance. The distributor(s) and prices should be included. After that, performance gains or losses could be discussed so that one could compare their vehicle and ideas- such as weight of vehicle, kWh, battery pack voltage, etc.

Example:


Total: $7702

Performance estimate:

  • Range: 40 miles (combined driving)
  • Power: 80 kWh
  • Acceleration: slightly less than original vehicle
  • Top speed: 60 MPH
  • Battery replacement: 3.5 years
I don't know if these are reasonable numbers. You get the idea? I think a comparison (as direct as possible) with lithium-ion batteries should be the next step.

Thanks,
Kurt
One thing is for sure, you wont be getting 40 miles out of 144 volts worth of 68Ah AGM batteries in a truck... ;)
 
#15 ·
The problem is there is no single 'baseline vehicle', and the decision tree splits rapidly depending on user priorities of performance/range/cost.

I guess you could start with the basic assumption that the goal is a 'suburban commuter' with 30-50 mile range, moderate performance, and minimum cost. Starting there, the first decision is truck, or 'small hatchback'... then you can develop a 'standard package'.

For example, for a 'small hatchback' being the most economical, 4-seater, likely to get 50 mile range at the lowest price with:

- 8" DC motor
- curtis 1221 controller
- pfc or similar cheap 15 amp charger
- chennic or similar dc-dc
- adaptor from canEV.com or alternate
- misc 'bits' from any one of 6 or so retailers
- 120v worth (38x100ah) of large format LiFePO4 (thundersky/CALB)

....then you have a lot of personal preference as to whether you want to put in a little more money for higher capacity batteries, a faster charger, etc. or, higher capacity controller for better performance at higher cost.
 
#18 ·
Alright, let's try this tact since people seem to be bogged down in the consensus mindset: I'm looking for info on a good pickup EV conversion. You know, an EV Album and/or DIY Electric Car Garage writeup. It should be your basic conversion, have a 30-50 mile range, reasonable acceleration, and data from being driven. I guess the main thing I'm trying to get a handle on is the Wh/mi value.
 
#19 · (Edited)
well..... hate to be a nit-picker, but are you talking 'small' pickup, king cab, full size, 4wd/no? ;) The other MAJOR factor in wHr/mile will be whether you intend to go with a bed-full of 6v-fla, moderate 8v-fla for a compromise on weight/range, or pony up for LiFePO4 for best cost/mile over a 10 year life and lowest weight.

assuming a 'little' truck, the baseline I would throw out there would include:

- 9" dc motor
- curtis 1231 or similar low-cost 500 amp / 144v rated controller
- 144v worth of Li, at least 100ah to get 50+ mile range.
- other components 'to match' include:
- tranny adapter
- dc-dc
- charger
- main contacter
- circuit breaker
- 500amp fuse
- vacuum pump/system
- heater kit
- instrumentation



d
 
#23 ·
If you have the Cd of the truck and a frontal area, the weight of the truck less driver, batteries and required payload capacity, I can probably run some number and give you a ball park on watts per mile and range for a few speeds and distances.
 
#28 ·
That is just a ball park pack size.

When I am home from work I can run the numbers with FLA and see what the difference is.
Thing is I only have the weight of lithium cells from one maufacturer in my limited data base and no weights for FLA so I will need to look that up for each option.
 
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