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Best value cost/kWH on 3.2V lifepo4 cells?

9K views 32 replies 11 participants last post by  sportcoupe 
#1 · (Edited)
Greetings all I am looking at creating a reliable replacement pack for a light weight Zap that was modified (by zap) to have a 120VDC Motor:
Model:FB1-4001A
Continuous rating: 19.0 kW (158A @ 120V) (25.2 hp)
Peak output: 63.8 kW (531A @ 120V) (85.0 hp)
I am not really sure what the actual peak amps the truck pulled when driving up hill or under full load.
I am looking at options for 38 3.2V lithium cells packs.
Does anyone on here have experiences ordering batteries from China?
I have been looking at these $272/kWH Foradepower:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...ergy-Storage-Battery/1191644_32881904233.html
and these
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hig...-100A-f-lifepo4-battery-pack/32427642435.html

I am located in Oregon USA there is nothing even remotely close to me that sells these.
I would prefer to work with something new as time is limited.
Thanks in advance!
 
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#5 ·
Thank you for your reply, I am not getting the same math results. A used pack OEM pack cost more than these new cells. If I could get one for a reasonable price like 1/2 of new I would consider it..
I was hoping someone on here had experience buying new batteries.
For example
Looks like I can get a range of Nissan Leif cells from 2011-2016 7.6V 56AH cells for around $150 on ebay. However none of the vendors have 36 cells in stock.
Plus it seems those cells are huge and low on the AH.
The cost @ 150 a cell would be much more per kWH at 365/kWH.
Even if I got enough of these gen 1 leaf batteries
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Leaf-Battery-Module-7-6V-35-40Ah-Used-/123046582768
I would still be paying $335/kWH
Tesla 24V packs dont reconfigure into 120VDC easily but they do seem to cost around $250/kWH (USD).

I dont see why people pay more for used batteries than new ones cost while not really knowing what your getting?
 
#7 ·
$5-600 per 100AH @12V is low market rate for new quality LFP prismatics.

Well maybe new, maybe good, from unkown overseas vendors.

Compare to a local trusted vendor, which of couse should be higher
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?manufacturers_id=3
Thats interesting thank you.
They have a 180AH 3.2V cell for $243 USD
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=264
So my estimate is with 38 of those you can get about 22kW for $421/kWH.
 
#8 ·
ebay prices aren't the best comparing prices.

tesla modules are actually quite nice for 120v, if you charge them to 4,1 volt per cell, you get 123v charged from 5 modules.

capacity of the '5,3kWh' modules is more like 5kWh if you charge till 4,2 volt, you loose 10-15% charging to 4,1V (something to calculate with), but you get a longer life at 4,1V (goes for all batteries, LFP numbers I don't know)
 
#11 ·
Well I dont know about that. The Panasonic specs on the cells say to charge them to 4.2. The specs also indicate 500 Cycles so again I am still wondering if anyone on here has any experiences with these NEW batteries coming from asia, that cost much LESS than all this used stuff?
Cheers
 
#18 ·
Hi
E-Bay is not where I would look

Read this thread
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/2012-chevy-volt-battery-93101.html

I got my pack from
http://www.car-part.com/

Buying a complete pack gets you all the other goodies including a BMS - I'm not using a BMS - but the pack comes complete with one if you can understand the way it works
Some of the smart people on this forum are using those BMS's

Re KennyBobby's comment
Different Chemistries have different voltages - you MUST charge to the voltage for your batteries

Kenny is right about 3.6v being too high for some cells but the Volt ones are 4.1v
 
#20 ·
A complete Chevy Volt battery is your best bet - I'm located in the US as well and paid $1160 for my last one about a year ago. They are cheap and salvage yards are always willing to deal on them since they have no idea what else to do with them. The easiest for this application would be to run 30S2P - using the balance ports to parallel between the cells giving you 10kwh total for the 120V pack. For charging, there is a guy on here that can reprogram the Elcon charger that your ZAP probably has to the correct voltage. BMS you will want to find as well, several good setups and info on this forum for that. Good luck!
 
#21 ·
Some other batteries to keep an eye on:

-Kia Soul: 10s and 14s modules (75Ah)
-VW e-golf: 4s and 2s modules (75Ah, from model 2017 114Ah)
-Mitshubishi Outlander PHEV: a bit small (12kWh) but easely reconfigurable (LEV40 cells, 40Ah, M6 studs on cells)

The Kia Soul has a central bms.
the VW and Outlander has a bms in the units, re-usable :)

the Tesla made units are nice, but might be difficult to fit.
-Model S is about 200Ah (6s),
-Mercedes Benz B-class is about 110Ah, (7s)
bms protocol is known and re-usable
-Smart pack (15s), same size as B-class, but bms not(yet) re-usable
 
#24 ·
Thank you for taking the time to put this list together.
I have not found any local Volt batteries yet so will start looking for these or order the volts off ebay.

Looks to me like a rebadged elcon - If you run "30S" Chevy Volt cells your peak voltage of the Volt batteries will be 126V@4.2/cell - my speculation is that charger is set to charge the lead acid nominal 120V. Someone is welcome to correct me on this but it is likely set to more like 140V or more to charge up the lead acid set, you just need to check the output voltage which will tell you if you need to have it reprogrammed. A lot of people don't charge all the way to 4.2V, including myself. 4.0-4.1 is very safe, so if your charger outputs exactly 120V or a touch more you will be in good shape to use the charge profile that is loaded.
It used to charge the leads up to 146V @ 4.5A so I am guessing I need to contact that forum member and ship it off to them?

I had a post here back in Janary ago when the batteries failed:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=944074&postcount=1

Wait January? Wow its been awhile I got to get this thing back on the road!
 
#23 ·
Looks to me like a rebadged elcon - If you run "30S" Chevy Volt cells your peak voltage of the Volt batteries will be 126V@4.2/cell - my speculation is that charger is set to charge the lead acid nominal 120V. Someone is welcome to correct me on this but it is likely set to more like 140V or more to charge up the lead acid set, you just need to check the output voltage which will tell you if you need to have it reprogrammed. A lot of people don't charge all the way to 4.2V, including myself. 4.0-4.1 is very safe, so if your charger outputs exactly 120V or a touch more you will be in good shape to use the charge profile that is loaded.
 
#25 ·
The best price I have been able to get is $0.85/Ah. I order straight from China, but the order needs to be a substantial volume, as the duties, shipping, and delays at USBP are the same for small orders. For a one-time buy, I would use Lithium Storage in Utah (http://www.lithiumstorage.com/index.php/en/) You will pay around $1.35/Ah, but that will include all that crap, except shipping to your house. You can get it at your address in about 5 days or less. If you can wait 120 days for a "piggy back" order, I can save you lots of money. For your mini-truck, the CALB battery in the best. I have a 180Ah pack that is 8 years old and still going strong. http://www.EV-Fleet.com
 
#26 ·
You might also consider if using Chevy Volt cells to bump your pack up to 36S. This will allow you to use the charger as it is if it is outputting 146V - gives you about 4.05V/cell which is about perfect. To achieve this you will need 6 of the 2kwh modules, run them 3S 2P. a 12kwh battery in a zap should get you 40-70 miles of range I'd guess obviously depending on your duty cycle. At 4.5A it will take 20hrs to fully charge, though - which I'd consider good enough!
 
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