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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Chery Cowin(VW PQ32) Drift EV planing need suggest

Hello, I have a VW A2 Platform Chery Cowin (same as SEAT Toledo Mk1) Group N race car, it was not work since 2014 because it's stock BMW MINI tritec engine was broken, & it is too much cost to rebuild it for its performance.

(I should buy the Chinese only 20V Jetta MK2, it is much much cheaper & carzy performance with that price & it is stock, not engine swap)

I would like to make a RWD EV conversion to be a drift car


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My Plan is:
1. use the same subframe & front axle from my car's front
2. move the original gearbox from my car>>> same as Dodge PT Cruiser & Neon
3. clutch might be keep as Drift need cut off the power to lock the rear wheel. or It will not need if the controller have motor brake function (motor lock, not regen), is my SPEC Stage 1 Clutch enough?
4. front axle will not change, battery put in engine bay
5. battery capacity don't need very high, but can be change is 5 min

Motor & controller choice:
1.Warp 9 with Zilla 1K HV
The most suitable choice with affordable budget, but I need to match all wire, gauge, charger...etc by myself

2.kelly controler KDHE 144V 1500A, motor still considering
kelly only support 120V Battery voltage, it limit the power output, but they sell it as a kit, it'll easier to finish it, and Kelly controller is Chinese Factory, I can have their technical support & warranty very easy.
if can find suitable motor & the price is ok, might use dual motor with low output Kelly

my target is get same wheel torque with 450hp gas car, & the hold price of the electric drive train is lower then 10000usd (the cost of RWD Conversion will not include)
 

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Re: Chery Cowin(VW PQ32) Drift EV planing need suggest

3. clutch might be keep as Drift need cut off the power to lock the rear wheel. or It will not need if the controller have motor brake function (motor lock, not regen), is my SPEC Stage 1 Clutch enough?
A clutch serves two purposes in a car with an engine:
  1. allows transmission to be shifted without engine affecting shift, and
  2. allows engine to keep running (instead of stalling) when the car is stopped.
You might want the clutch for the shifting purpose. Since there is no reason to keep the electric motor running when the wheels are not turning, I don't see locking the driven wheels as a reason to keep the clutch.
 

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Re: Chery Cowin(VW PQ32) Drift EV planing need suggest

Motor & controller choice:
1.Warp 9 with Zilla 1K HV
...

2.kelly controler KDHE 144V 1500A, motor still considering

... my target is get same wheel torque with 450hp gas car
At what speed? Power is the product of torque and speed, so it's easy to produce lots of torque at low speed with low enough gearing, but the faster you want to go with that torque the more power you need.

In a perfect world, 144 volts at 1500 amps would be 216 kW or 290 hp. Reality will be far short of that.


For how long? Gasoline engines are rated by the power they can produce continuously, for an extended period. Electric motors are rated that way, too, but (according to a distributor) for the WarP 9 that's 32 HP (@72 Volts And 335 Amps, turning 2158 RPM). For short bursts, much higher speeds and more current can be tolerated without melting down, so how short determines how much power... although there are other factors such as how often you are willing to rebuild or replace the motor.
 

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Re: Chery Cowin(VW PQ32) Drift EV planing need suggest

Hello, I have a VW A2 Platform Chery Cowin (same as SEAT Toledo Mk1) Group N race car...

My Plan is:
1. use the same subframe & front axle from my car's front
2. move the original gearbox from my car...
My guess is that you intend to either
  • remove the gearbox (then what will you use for a transmission and differential?), or
  • move the gearbox to the rear.
Either way, you need a solution for rear suspension and hubs which allows the rear wheels to be driven. I am not a VW expert, but it appears to me that the Golf Mk2 Syncro uses an entirely different rear suspension from the front-wheel-drive Golf Mk2. If this car does not share suspension with an all-wheel-drive version, that's could be a lot of fabrication... and with almost none of the original car left, I wonder why this car would be used.
 

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Re: Chery Cowin(VW PQ32) Drift EV planing need suggest

5. battery capacity don't need very high, but can be change is 5 min
You can charge any battery in five minutes... if you don't want to add much energy to the battery. Realistically, it seems unreasonable to charge at higher power than the car uses for sustained high-power operation. So sure, you can charge the battery in 5 minutes... with enough energy to drifting for another 2 or 3 minutes. That doesn't seem useful to me, but I'm not a drifting fan.

For comparison, Tesla's Superchargers provide 120 kW at a higher voltage than the battery (so no on-board charge controller is needed), which is much lower than the maximum power used by any Tesla model. Although these are intended to be very fast chargers, it takes over an hour to fully charge a typical Tesla car at a Supercharger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Re: Chery Cowin(VW PQ32) Drift EV planing need suggest

A clutch serves two purposes in a car with an engine:
  1. allows transmission to be shifted without engine affecting shift, and
  2. allows engine to keep running (instead of stalling) when the car is stopped.
You might want the clutch for the shifting purpose. Since there is no reason to keep the electric motor running when the wheels are not turning, I don't see locking the driven wheels as a reason to keep the clutch.
Drift need to use hand brake to lock the rear wheel asap, the inertia of motor will make it harder to lock, so I need the clutch to cut off the motor, or it won't need if the motor have self lock function.

At what speed? Power is the product of torque and speed, so it's easy to produce lots of torque at low speed with low enough gearing, but the faster you want to go with that torque the more power you need.

In a perfect world, 144 volts at 1500 amps would be 216 kW or 290 hp. Reality will be far short of that.


For how long? Gasoline engines are rated by the power they can produce continuously, for an extended period. Electric motors are rated that way, too, but (according to a distributor) for the WarP 9 that's 32 HP (@72 Volts And 335 Amps, turning 2158 RPM). For short bursts, much higher speeds and more current can be tolerated without melting down, so how short determines how much power... although there are other factors such as how often you are willing to rebuild or replace the motor.

under 150km/h (in 95% time, it should be under 90km/h), for 1 Min

My guess is that you intend to either
  • remove the gearbox (then what will you use for a transmission and differential?), or
  • move the gearbox to the rear.
Either way, you need a solution for rear suspension and hubs which allows the rear wheels to be driven. I am not a VW expert, but it appears to me that the Golf Mk2 Syncro uses an entirely different rear suspension from the front-wheel-drive Golf Mk2. If this car does not share suspension with an all-wheel-drive version, that's could be a lot of fabrication... and with almost none of the original car left, I wonder why this car would be used.
yes, it need to build a complete rear end, I'll use the same parts from feont, & move the gearbox to rear

You can charge any battery in five minutes... if you don't want to add much energy to the battery. Realistically, it seems unreasonable to charge at higher power than the car uses for sustained high-power operation. So sure, you can charge the battery in 5 minutes... with enough energy to drifting for another 2 or 3 minutes. That doesn't seem useful to me, but I'm not a drifting fan.

For comparison, Tesla's Superchargers provide 120 kW at a higher voltage than the battery (so no on-board charge controller is needed), which is much lower than the maximum power used by any Tesla model. Although these are intended to be very fast chargers, it takes over an hour to fully charge a typical Tesla car at a Supercharger.
but not every track provide supercharger, And sometime u might maintena the car on the starter between 2 run, that means u can't get any plug.

In my experience, some drift race just host in a big car park, you can't find place to plug even in pit stop
 

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Re: Chery Cowin(VW PQ32) Drift EV planing need suggest

Drift need to use hand brake to lock the rear wheel asap, the inertia of motor will make it harder to lock, so I need the clutch to cut off the motor, or it won't need if the motor have self lock function.
While there is certainly some inertia of the motor's rotation, I don't think it's a serious problem compared to what the brakes need to handle to slide the tires despite the car's motion, or even to stop the wheels and tires from turning with their rotational inertia. Yes, the motor's rotor is rotating faster than the wheels, but it has small diameter and less mass than the two wheels plus two tires.

Serious motor manufacturers publish the rotor inertia. For stuff such as a WarP, you can look up the formula for the moment of inertia of solid cylinder, plug in the mass, length, and diameter of the motor's rotor, and compare that to the wheels and tires. Better, compare the kinetic energy of the rotating components.
 

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under 150km/h (in 95% time, it should be under 90km/h), for 1 Min
At huge speed, that kind of torque will need huge power. At 150 km/h the gas engines are running at their power peak, so to match their torque at the wheels you'll need to match their peak power... 450 hp, you say?
 

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yes, it need to build a complete rear end, I'll use the same parts from feont, & move the gearbox to rear
That's a proven approach for building a mid-engine rear-drive car with components from a front-engine front-drive car... but the car's existing structure is completely different front and rear. This is a substantial fabrication effort.

Examples of front suspension and drive systems in the rear include the
Fiat X1/9
Toyota MR2
Pontiac Fiero
 

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but not every track provide supercharger, And sometime u might maintena the car on the starter between 2 run, that means u can't get any plug.

In my experience, some drift race just host in a big car park, you can't find place to plug even in pit stop
I didn't mean to suggest that a Supercharger would be available, only that the Tesla example illustrates that charging is slower than discharging at peak rate. Runs would need to be very brief to be able to replace the charge in only 5 minutes... even with an unreasonably large charger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Chery Cowin(VW PQ32) Drift EV planing need suggest

While there is certainly some inertia of the motor's rotation, I don't think it's a serious problem compared to what the brakes need to handle to slide the tires despite the car's motion, or even to stop the wheels and tires from turning with their rotational inertia. Yes, the motor's rotor is rotating faster than the wheels, but it has small diameter and less mass than the two wheels plus two tires.

Serious motor manufacturers publish the rotor inertia. For stuff such as a WarP, you can look up the formula for the moment of inertia of solid cylinder, plug in the mass, length, and diameter of the motor's rotor, and compare that to the wheels and tires. Better, compare the kinetic energy of the rotating components.
I designed to use clutch at first, & compare the different use & not use the clutch, if it is ok, I'll remove the clutch
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
At huge speed, that kind of torque will need huge power. At 150 km/h the gas engines are running at their power peak, so to match their torque at the wheels you'll need to match their peak power... 450 hp, you say?
ah.... just make it @ 80-100km/h...... the drift track in china is not that fast
 

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How much time would it need to charge a 300V 6kwh battery pack with 220V power supply?:confused:
Knowing the voltage isn't enough. How much current?

In the EV industry, providing 220 V (or 240 V) AC charging power is called "Level 2" charging. Since the power is AC (not DC) and not matched in voltage to the requirements of the car's battery, the car needs an on-board charger to convert the power as required. I've heard of charging stations providing from as little as 15 amps to as much as 100 amps at this voltage, but the car's on-board charger is also a limitation.

If you have 100 amps at 220 volts available, and a charger in the car which can use all of that, you have 22 kW (simply 220 times 30) of charging. At 100 kW that 6 kWh of charging would ideally only take 4 minutes. If you only have a 30 amp source or 6.6 kW charger (the larger size offered in the Nissan Leaf), it's going to take about an hour to put 6 kWh into the battery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Knowing the voltage isn't enough. How much current?

In the EV industry, providing 220 V (or 240 V) AC charging power is called "Level 2" charging. Since the power is AC (not DC) and not matched in voltage to the requirements of the car's battery, the car needs an on-board charger to convert the power as required. I've heard of charging stations providing from as little as 15 amps to as much as 100 amps at this voltage, but the car's on-board charger is also a limitation.

If you have 100 amps at 220 volts available, and a charger in the car which can use all of that, you have 22 kW (simply 220 times 30) of charging. At 100 kW that 6 kWh of charging would ideally only take 4 minutes. If you only have a 30 amp source or 6.6 kW charger (the larger size offered in the Nissan Leaf), it's going to take about an hour to put 6 kWh into the battery.
220-240V, 13-16A home plug
 

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Hi Scania
You have a 6 Kwhr pack and you have about 3 Kw available for your charger so a full charge will take about 2 hours

I'm using a BRUSA charger - it's an old one I got from a guy on the Isle of White -
With that charger I can set how much power to take
So I have set mine up for 10 amps - so that I can use any outlet

10 amps x 240v = 2.4Kw - so that would take 2 hours and 30 minutes to do 6 Kw hrs

You should never go to zero or to 100% - so you should only use 80% of your 6 Kwhrs = 4.8 Kwhrs

That would take my charger 2 hours

If you were always using a socket with 16 amps available then you could set the BRUSA to 16 amps - 3.8 Kw - which would recharge your 4.8 Kwhrs in 75 minutes
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Just make a layout of the target track & test in LFS, to finish the most tricky part, it need 300Nm at 140km/h, & 332Nm @ 120km/h
That corner can only use FZ5(Porsche like) to turn, XRT(Mitsubishi Starion like) can't do it, FZ5's max torque is 392Nm @ 5000rpm

If lighter car can use lower torque
 

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220-240V, 13-16A home plug
220 volts multiplied by 13 amps is 2.86 kW, or over two hours to replace 6 kWh of charge. That's why recharging is something that can be done after an event, before returning home, but not reasonably between runs with a readily available charging source.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
I'm calculating how much times I can run with 6kwh battery

target power is 300hp=223kw

223kw x Xhr = 6kwh

6/223=0.0269058296h

0.0269058296hr *60= 1.61min

1 run of drift around 1 min

does it means 1 charge only can take 1 hit?

=========

And may I have some suggest of motor & controller choice?
 
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