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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all. I'm new to the EV world and just getting started with some small EV projects. I just picked up some A123 26650 hybrid bus battery modules, 40v, and I have a charger from a build I picked up in the winter, a delta quiq 1kw 96v charger. I'm not sure if the charger would be able to charge these modules since it is the higher voltage charger and if so, what's the best recommendation to get these batteries back up to power to make them useful?

Thanks in advance
 

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No, it isn't going to work. That voltage is way too low. If you put 2 in series, maybe. But not a single 40V pack.

What is the configuration of the battery module? how many in series and how many in parallel?
 

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The charger will charge them.

Then it will overcharge them.

Then they will catch fire.

The charger has no knowledge that these batteries are 40v max, so it will try to charge them to 96v.
 

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Matt,
If it was a dumb charger, yes, I'd agree with you.

However, in my experience with these (over 11 years of programming DeltaQ chargers), the charger won't start at that low of a voltage on a 96V charger. I recall the minimum voltage required on this unit is about 60V for the 96V charger to start. If you know otherwise, please cite your sources, as I'd be interested to know more.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the info. I would like to try to get them some what charged for testing purposes so I may try the series of the batteries to see if I can get the charger working. That way I can negate the idea the charger is bad.

I tried to get it to start charging but the internal fault signal was flashing. Here is the model.

This is the model of the charger along with the battery modules. They're 12s8p of the 26650 batteries.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Frodos,

Would it work since the batteries are lifepo4? I saw somewhere online where the delta quiq chargers are not programmed for lithium batteries
 

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1) What is the error code it's flashing?
2) Is the temperature sensor wired up? If not, it won't charge.
3) It will work, but it won't charge to the right voltage if not loaded with lithium algorithms (Which I can do). What algorithm is on there?


You''ll need to go to DeltaQ's website and look for the manual to see what error it's flashing and what algorithm is loaded.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
For a more of a background, the charger was on board a trike that was out in the elements for a bit. It had 96v chevy battery modules hooked up to it. When I got it, the batteries were bloated, but I still wanted to see if it would charge (before I knew the batteries were bloated). I do so and the fault code that came up said there was ac voltage, but a battery fault so I believe the charger is still in a functioning state, just may not be adaptable for my needs with the batteries I have.
 

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Frodos,

It kicks in 6 red flashes meaning some internal fault.

Here is the manual I found online:

I'm not sure what algorithm it is set to as of yet and will look into it more tomorrow when I have the time.

Can you program the 40v modules to not over load or how would I go about using that charger without getting a separate one, if that's even possible?
The 96V charger can't be programmed to charge a battery that low. You would need a QuiQ 48V charger to charge a single module.

I asked before:
What is the configuration of the battery module? how many cells in series and how many in parallel?

What LED are you looking at when it flashes 6?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
8P 12S 26650 A123 Batteries is what the module has. I have 5 total modules currently.

This was the area where the fault was reading.

119953
 

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If you don't have it connected to the charger, it may lead to that error.

That being said, these chargers won't start up without a higher voltage connected.

What is the battery pack voltage you're aiming for? What is the application you're trying to put these cells into?

24S of A123 modules max voltage would be about 3.7V x 24 in series = 88.8VDC. Even at the lowest algorithm I have for the 96V charger (98.8V), it would over charge them.

The best choice is going to be a 72V charger, getting it programmed for lithium and then put 2 modules in series, and charge, or find a different charger. A 48V deltaQ wouldn't work for charging 12s of A123 even with a lithium profile, as the lowest algorithm goes go about 49V (you're looking for about 44.4V max).
 

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Discussion Starter #13
That makes total sense and I greatly appreciate your information.

Could you point me into the right direction to charge these strange modules? I have also consider re configuring the cells to make a 96V battery to avoid the need for a new charger as the Delta QuiQ chargers are not cheap at all.

My application for these batteries is for an e motorcycle build I'm working on. I believe the components I do have may be too small for a custom vehicle (Trike or smaller car with a tubular frame made from scratch and bits).

Motor: K91-4003 Motor

Controller: Curtis PMC 1231C
 

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I'd start by aiming on getting a charger that matches your end pack voltage. You could reconfigure, but it may be cheaper and easier to get a 72V charger and get it programmed for 24s.

I don't know what you mean when you say not cheap. The 72V deltaQ chargers are like $200, and you can likely get at least that from a 96V charger, as they're not sold any longer and hard to find working. Ebay has a lot listed. Here's one:

There's the 922-7254 too, which has a charger and a dcdc converter built in, which is nice. Those are $200 too:
 

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An inexpensive option if the deltaQ is not suitable, is this charger linked below on ebay ~125$ shipped via ups from china. It is about 850W-1kW in higher output voltage models but may be limited to 12A in the 12S,43.8V max LiFePO4 version? (I bought one with about ~94V max charge voltage for 26S A123 and so far in very limited tests it seems to work ok, with its ~ 850W ouput. )
One of the versions (select from drop down options if buying) is the 12S LiFePO4
.
I previously posted a little more info here:
 

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One issue with those A123 modules that you should consider/inspect, is that the tabs are thick enough for the highest peak currents you expect. The modules I bought years back that looked identical had relatively whimpy tabs compared to single cells that I bought direct from A123 which had tabs rated for the full 120A peak loading that each cell can sustain for 10 seconds. It may well be that in the pack using 8p really thick tabs are not necessary and also the thin tabs then act as fuses for single cell failures? I was splitting the cells out so it was an issue for me as I wanted very high pulse capability.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I think I am going to dismantle the modules and create my own battery pack tailored to what I am needing. I have mostly all of the components for my Electric motorcycle I am converting and was trying to use these as a plug and play setup, but seems like it doesn't work that way.

My new setup will be 29S 16P, 96V nominal with a 40 ah capacity. Any suggestions of the size of strips, bms setup that will match the charger I have? I am doing spot welding opposed to soldering as well.
 

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I would choose a BMS first and then select a number of cells in series that fit the Charger and BMS voltage.

I don't know that choosing the number of cells arbitrarily as you are (29s) is a good idea when trying to design the entire system. For instance: If you choose a BMS that has a limit of 24 cells, you won't be able to use 29s. If you get a BMS that can do 32 cells, then you're wasting 3 channels. Same with the voltage on the charger.

If you are using the DeltaQ, for instance, and I program it for you, then these are the voltages available:
Algorithm ID96V model cutoff
* 6798.4
128109.44
211110.88
163114
53116.784
123119.76
164121.584
135124.512
177131.376

With 29s (which is a weird odd number to begin with), you'd be limited to algorithm 67 and would only charge to 98.4V, as the others would overcharge the A123 cells. If you chose 30s, you could use algorithm 128, and charge to 109.44V (3.648V per cell, which is great). So I would choose the number in series based on your available equipment. I think the 1231C goes to 120V for the lower voltage model.
 

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I have a 96v Quiq charger coming. How do I get it reprogrammed for 26s A123?
Not sure you can.

26s A123 would be something like 3.65V a cell max, so 94.9V is the highest charge voltage you want for those cells. The lowest profile I have for the charger when installed on a 96V QuiQ is 98.4V. This would overcharge the cells to ~3.78V.

If you are set on 26s, then you need to purchase the 72V charger, not the 96V charger. Then you could use algorithm 135, and charge to 93.384V, which would be about ~3.6V per cell. If you aren't set on 26s, then pick something like 27s and use #67. Or go higher yet to 30s and use #128.

Here's the algorithms and what charge voltage each model would have:
Algorithm ID48V Model Cutoff72V model cutoff96V model cutoff
* 6749.273.898.4
12854.7282.08109.44
21155.4483.16110.88
1635785.5114
5358.39287.588116.784
12359.8889.82119.76
16460.79291.188121.584
13562.25693.384124.512
17765.68898.532131.376

From my contacts at DeltaQ, I was told Algorithm 67 is the lowest algorithm available for these chargers for lithium.
 
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