[Csecrist12]

Hey all. I'm new to the EV world and just getting started with some small EV projects. I just picked up some A123 26650 hybrid bus battery modules, 40v, and I have a charger from a build I picked up in the winter, a delta quiq 1kw 96v charger. I'm not sure if the charger would be able to charge these modules since it is the higher voltage charger and if so, what's the best recommendation to get these batteries back up to power to make them useful?

Thanks in advance

 

[frodus]

No, it isn't going to work. That voltage is way too low. If you put 2 in series, maybe. But not a single 40V pack.

What is the configuration of the battery module? how many in series and how many in parallel?

 

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

The charger will charge them.

Then it will overcharge them.

Then they will catch fire.

The charger has no knowledge that these batteries are 40v max, so it will try to charge them to 96v.

 

[frodus]

Matt,
If it was a dumb charger, yes, I'd agree with you.

However, in my experience with these (over 11 years of programming DeltaQ chargers), the charger won't start at that low of a voltage on a 96V charger. I recall the minimum voltage required on this unit is about 60V for the 96V charger to start. If you know otherwise, please cite your sources, as I'd be interested to know more.

 

[Csecrist12]

Thanks for the info. I would like to try to get them some what charged for testing purposes so I may try the series of the batteries to see if I can get the charger working. That way I can negate the idea the charger is bad.

I tried to get it to start charging but the internal fault signal was flashing. Here is the model.

This is the model of the charger along with the battery modules. They're 12s8p of the 26650 batteries.

 

[Csecrist12]

Frodos,

Would it work since the batteries are lifepo4? I saw somewhere online where the delta quiq chargers are not programmed for lithium batteries

 

[frodus]

1) What is the error code it's flashing?
2) Is the temperature sensor wired up? If not, it won't charge.
3) It will work, but it won't charge to the right voltage if not loaded with lithium algorithms (Which I can do). What algorithm is on there?


You''ll need to go to DeltaQ's website and look for the manual to see what error it's flashing and what algorithm is loaded.

 

[Csecrist12]

Frodos,

It kicks in 6 red flashes meaning some internal fault.

Here is the manual I found online:

https://s3.manualzz.com/store/data/029997495.pdf?key=e574a6f9cc282094d98147be639cf2c6&r=1&fn=29997495.pdf&t=1595035341275&p=86400

I'm not sure what algorithm it is set to as of yet and will look into it more tomorrow when I have the time.

Can you program the 40v modules to not over load or how would I go about using that charger without getting a separate one, if that's even possible?

 

[Csecrist12]

For a more of a background, the charger was on board a trike that was out in the elements for a bit. It had 96v chevy battery modules hooked up to it. When I got it, the batteries were bloated, but I still wanted to see if it would charge (before I knew the batteries were bloated). I do so and the fault code that came up said there was ac voltage, but a battery fault so I believe the charger is still in a functioning state, just may not be adaptable for my needs with the batteries I have.

 

[frodus]

Frodos,

It kicks in 6 red flashes meaning some internal fault.

Here is the manual I found online:

https://s3.manualzz.com/store/data/029997495.pdf?key=e574a6f9cc282094d98147be639cf2c6&r=1&fn=29997495.pdf&t=1595035341275&p=86400

I'm not sure what algorithm it is set to as of yet and will look into it more tomorrow when I have the time.

Can you program the 40v modules to not over load or how would I go about using that charger without getting a separate one, if that's even possible?

The 96V charger can't be programmed to charge a battery that low. You would need a QuiQ 48V charger to charge a single module.

I asked before:
What is the configuration of the battery module? how many cells in series and how many in parallel?

What LED are you looking at when it flashes 6?

 

[Csecrist12]

8P 12S 26650 A123 Batteries is what the module has. I have 5 total modules currently.

This was the area where the fault was reading.

 

[frodus]

If you don't have it connected to the charger, it may lead to that error.

That being said, these chargers won't start up without a higher voltage connected.

What is the battery pack voltage you're aiming for? What is the application you're trying to put these cells into?

24S of A123 modules max voltage would be about 3.7V x 24 in series = 88.8VDC. Even at the lowest algorithm I have for the 96V charger (98.8V), it would over charge them.

The best choice is going to be a 72V charger, getting it programmed for lithium and then put 2 modules in series, and charge, or find a different charger. A 48V deltaQ wouldn't work for charging 12s of A123 even with a lithium profile, as the lowest algorithm goes go about 49V (you're looking for about 44.4V max).

 

[Csecrist12]

That makes total sense and I greatly appreciate your information.

Could you point me into the right direction to charge these strange modules? I have also consider re configuring the cells to make a 96V battery to avoid the need for a new charger as the Delta QuiQ chargers are not cheap at all.

My application for these batteries is for an e motorcycle build I'm working on. I believe the components I do have may be too small for a custom vehicle (Trike or smaller car with a tubular frame made from scratch and bits).

Motor: K91-4003 Motor

K91-4003 Motor

www.evmotors.com.au

Controller: Curtis PMC 1231C

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/1231.pdf

 

[frodus]

I'd start by aiming on getting a charger that matches your end pack voltage. You could reconfigure, but it may be cheaper and easier to get a 72V charger and get it programmed for 24s.

I don't know what you mean when you say not cheap. The 72V deltaQ chargers are like $200, and you can likely get at least that from a 96V charger, as they're not sold any longer and hard to find working. Ebay has a lot listed. Here's one:

Delta-Q 72V 12A 1000W QuiQ Battery Charger 922-7254 w/ 400W DC-DC + Connectors | eBay

Maximum DC Power Output: 1000W. Maximum DC Output Current: 12A. Maximum power output: 400W. Maximum interlock current: 0.5A. A proven power electronics design with 93% energy efficiency and sealed enclosure.

www.ebay.com

There's the 922-7254 too, which has a charger and a dcdc converter built in, which is nice. Those are $200 too:

Delta-Q QuiQ-Icon On-Board 72V Battery Charger 912-7254 | eBay

It can be used worldwide as it operates at both 120 volts and 230 volts. These are commonly used on golf cars, electric vehicles, floor scrubbers, and battery powered sweepers. ICON Model. Signal for NC-NO iLock Relay (Deutsch).

www.ebay.com

 

[TimHug]

An inexpensive option if the deltaQ is not suitable, is this charger linked below on ebay ~125$ shipped via ups from china. It is about 850W-1kW in higher output voltage models but may be limited to 12A in the 12S,43.8V max LiFePO4 version? (I bought one with about ~94V max charge voltage for 26S A123 and so far in very limited tests it seems to work ok, with its ~ 850W ouput. )
One of the versions (select from drop down options if buying) is the 12S LiFePO4

48V 58.4V 58.8V 72V 60V 67.2V eBike Lipo Li-ion Lifepo4 Battery Charger 12A EV | eBay

12V 24V 36V 48V 60V 72V 84V 96V you can choose. you can adjust the current 2A to 12A. output current : 2A to 12A you can adjust. suit for 20AH to 120AH Li battery. can suit for 99% Li batteries. Built-in thermostat.

www.ebay.com

.
I previously posted a little more info here:

Question about balancing 26S/3P, 60 Ah A123 Brand 5KW...

I have acquired 4 of these 5KW, 26S3P/60 Amp Hour A123 Prismatic modules and plan to use them for my whole house backup system I will build. Each module has 2, 13S BMS "slaves" that probably reported to a master BMS controller. I’m not very knowledgeable in BMS’s but generally understand what...

www.diyelectriccar.com

 

[TimHug]

One issue with those A123 modules that you should consider/inspect, is that the tabs are thick enough for the highest peak currents you expect. The modules I bought years back that looked identical had relatively whimpy tabs compared to single cells that I bought direct from A123 which had tabs rated for the full 120A peak loading that each cell can sustain for 10 seconds. It may well be that in the pack using 8p really thick tabs are not necessary and also the thin tabs then act as fuses for single cell failures? I was splitting the cells out so it was an issue for me as I wanted very high pulse capability.

 

[Csecrist12]

I think I am going to dismantle the modules and create my own battery pack tailored to what I am needing. I have mostly all of the components for my Electric motorcycle I am converting and was trying to use these as a plug and play setup, but seems like it doesn't work that way.

My new setup will be 29S 16P, 96V nominal with a 40 ah capacity. Any suggestions of the size of strips, bms setup that will match the charger I have? I am doing spot welding opposed to soldering as well.

 

[frodus]

I would choose a BMS first and then select a number of cells in series that fit the Charger and BMS voltage.

I don't know that choosing the number of cells arbitrarily as you are (29s) is a good idea when trying to design the entire system. For instance: If you choose a BMS that has a limit of 24 cells, you won't be able to use 29s. If you get a BMS that can do 32 cells, then you're wasting 3 channels. Same with the voltage on the charger.

If you are using the DeltaQ, for instance, and I program it for you, then these are the voltages available:

Algorithm ID	96V model cutoff
* 67	98.4
128	109.44
211	110.88
163	114
53	116.784
123	119.76
164	121.584
135	124.512
177	131.376

With 29s (which is a weird odd number to begin with), you'd be limited to algorithm 67 and would only charge to 98.4V, as the others would overcharge the A123 cells. If you chose 30s, you could use algorithm 128, and charge to 109.44V (3.648V per cell, which is great). So I would choose the number in series based on your available equipment. I think the 1231C goes to 120V for the lower voltage model.

 

[nolunchman]

I have a 96v Quiq charger coming. How do I get it reprogrammed for 26s A123?

 

[frodus]

I have a 96v Quiq charger coming. How do I get it reprogrammed for 26s A123?

Not sure you can.

26s A123 would be something like 3.65V a cell max, so 94.9V is the highest charge voltage you want for those cells. The lowest profile I have for the charger when installed on a 96V QuiQ is 98.4V. This would overcharge the cells to ~3.78V.

If you are set on 26s, then you need to purchase the 72V charger, not the 96V charger. Then you could use algorithm 135, and charge to 93.384V, which would be about ~3.6V per cell. If you aren't set on 26s, then pick something like 27s and use #67. Or go higher yet to 30s and use #128.

Here's the algorithms and what charge voltage each model would have:

Algorithm ID	48V Model Cutoff	72V model cutoff	96V model cutoff
* 67	49.2	73.8	98.4
128	54.72	82.08	109.44
211	55.44	83.16	110.88
163	57	85.5	114
53	58.392	87.588	116.784
123	59.88	89.82	119.76
164	60.792	91.188	121.584
135	62.256	93.384	124.512
177	65.688	98.532	131.376

From my contacts at DeltaQ, I was told Algorithm 67 is the lowest algorithm available for these chargers for lithium.