[JKReece]

I wish to follow the technology of the diesel / electric locomotive, as I have a 1983 Isuzu P/U with a 58hp, 4 cyl diesel engine, that I would like to have power one of my 10kw generator heads, with a 120v or 240v electric motor powering my rear axle.

My intention is to remove the 5-speed manual transmission and put one of my 10kw generator heads in its place, then idle the engine at the RPM necessary to achieve 60Hz, and direct-wire the A/C 120 or 240V drive motor to the generator head to supply power to the motor.

It doesn't make sense to me to spends thousands of dollars on batteries, along with adding the extra weight, then having to recharge the batteries, when I already have a complete power source.

If anyone knows where I should be searching, please point me in that direction? Thanks!

 

[remy_martian]

Suggestion - do a lot more reading. You have no clue about what you are doing and you are no smarter than any automotive engineer.

 

[JKReece]

Suggestion - do a lot more reading. You have no clue about what you are doing and you are no smarter than any automotive engineer.

Wow. I'm so happy that you could enlighten me on my mental ability and level of intelligence. Those numbers sure look good. Keep up the good work.

So you must think that I joined this site because I already knew all of the information that I propose to seek here?

 

[piotrsko]

The train systems have this massive displacement diesel engine literally the size of my house that likes to run at about only a couple hundred rpm. The tranny would be enormous, finicky, and more fragile than the rest of the train. They use electomotive because the bogie motors can be varied from the engine speed fairly easily and provide required torque from 0 to max speed. Listen To one starting moving at a siding and the diesel rpm doesn't vary much

 

[cricketo]

So you must think that I joined this site because I already knew all of the information that I propose to seek here?

It certainly sounded you already identified a direction and had some of the answers.

 

[JKReece]

Thanks for this. I live right next to a major Santa Fe train hub, and it is from doing just what you suggested that got me to thinking about this. Obviously, for what I am attempting to accomplish, my project would have to be scaled down tremendously, but I have this envisioned as though I can utilize one of my generator heads in the place of my transmission, to provide direct 120 or 240V A/C power to a drive motor, and then I retain all of my original 12V system for accessories, along with vacuum for my braking system.

Is this too far fetched?

If the train electro-diesel is rectified to D/C voltage, there would be rectifiers that would allow me to do the same I would think. I'm no genius here, just someone with a truck, a complete power source, and an idea.

 

[cricketo]

Here is a little cheat sheet for you regarding the numbers:

58HP - 43.3kW
10kW - 13.4HP

 

[JKReece]

This is what I am after. Thank you.

So it appears that I would require at the least a 43-45kW motor, and I am assuming here that you're referring to a D/C motor? I don't see many people on EV forums talking about A/C powered motors because of the batteries.

 

[cricketo]

This is what I am after. Thank you.

So it appears that I would require at the least a 43-45kW motor, and I am assuming here that you're referring to a D/C motor? I don't see many people on EV forums talking about A/C powered motors because of the batteries.

I am talking straight power. If I were to guess, DC motors are less than 30% of what's being talked about. You should stick around in observer mode

 

[JKReece]

Very good. Thank you. I'm interested to learn all I can here.

 

[remy_martian]

Suggestion - do a lot more reading. You have no clue about what you are doing...

Great. That only took 10 postings.

Your mistake was thinking you could attach a harbor freight generator and rectifier to an ICE that's 5x its power rating. And then you said 60Hz, which requires a synchronous generator with an ICE running at a fixed, governed, speed. You knew just enough to throw a sentence together, thinking you were onto something nobody else was doing.

Your mistake is taking 1940's technology (rectifiers have massive heat losses - a big part of a loco's bodywork accommodates massive radiators; low frequency generators are massive) and applying it to 2023 to replace a battery. A train is efficient because of its low rolling resistance, not because of its CVT.

And, after all that , you still need a battery for your proposed rig.

 

[sierrablue]

Very good. Thank you. I'm interested to learn all I can here.

If it makes you feel any better, I've wondered about doing the same thing for my Jeep. Do all the EV motor stuff I want to do, then put a lawn mower engine in it to generate the electricity. In my case I'd want to go to batteries eventually, but this setup would get the electric motor portion done, and meanwhile I'd be getting 50+ mpg. I know pretty much the same about this stuff that you do.

Definitely following this, to see how things go and whatnot.

 

[JKReece]

I've contacted a friend of mine who is a Conductor for BNSF and have asked him to put me in touch with one of the mechanics who works on the engines. I didn't think of this before. I will report back all of my findings from here. I will happily learn all I can from those here who are in the know.

 

[brian_]

I've contacted a friend of mine who is a Conductor for BNSF and have asked him to put me in touch with one of the mechanics who works on the engines.

I doubt that a mechanic will have any understanding of what is going on in the electrical boxes.

 

[JKReece]

I doubt that a mechanic will have any understanding of what is going on in the electrical boxes.

Seriously? This is your understanding of a mechanic who is charged with the maintenance and repair of diesel / electric locomotive?

You might visit with one to learn that they know everything from bumper-to-bumper. This is why they are the go-to people when a locomotive fails.

 

[brian_]

I wish to follow the technology of the diesel / electric locomotive, as I have a 1983 Isuzu P/U with a 58hp, 4 cyl diesel engine, that I would like to have power one of my 10kw generator heads, with a 120v or 240v electric motor powering my rear axle.

As already mentioned, if your generator can only produce 10 kW, then you can't use more than 10 kW of the engine's possible 43 kW output. More importantly, in this configuration with no battery, 10 kW of generator means no more than 10 kW to the motor which drives the rear axle, which is okay for a golf cart and far too little for even a small pickup truck.

So, to just maintain the original performance you need at least a 43 kW generator, and at least a 43 kW motor, and appropriate electronics between them.

My intention is to remove the 5-speed manual transmission and put one of my 10kw generator heads in its place, then idle the engine at the RPM necessary to achieve 60Hz...

What do you mean by "idle"? I actually means to run without producing any useful power, but what you want to do is run to produce exactly the power needed by the vehicle - that's not "idle".

If using the AC output directly from a generator the engine speed does directly determine the power frequency; however, there is no need - or even any reason - to produce electrical power 60 Hz, and there is no reason for that speed (3600 RPM for 2-pole generator, 1800 RPM for a 4-pole generator, etc) to be appropriate for the engine.

... and direct-wire the A/C 120 or 240V drive motor to the generator head to supply power to the motor.

A motor supplied with power at a fixed frequency can only run at a fixed speed; obviously that doesn't work for driving a vehicle, which must vary in speed. The AC power can supply a motor controller (called a VFD for "variable frequency drive" when supplied with AC power) to run the motor. If using a VFD, there's no need for the power from the generator to be at a fixed frequency.


You might want to start with the Wikipedia page for Diesel locomotive, Diesel–electric section, for a description of what is actually involved. You might note that typically the power from the generator to the motor controller is DC. Also, locomotives change engine speed with changes in the power requested by the operator's control actions (moving the "throttle" lever), rather than running at constant speed.

It doesn't make sense to me to spends thousands of dollars on batteries, along with adding the extra weight, then having to recharge the batteries, when I already have a complete power source.

Without a battery, the entire system just replaces the transmission with an electro-mechanical transmission system which is continuously variable (which is nice) but much less efficient than any conventional automotive transmission... and that doesn't make much sense.

 

[brian_]

Seriously? This is your understanding of a mechanic who is charged with the maintenance and repair of diesel / electric locomotive?

You might visit with one to learn that they know everything from bumper-to-bumper. This is why they are the go-to people when a locomotive fails.

Mechanics do maintenance (change lubricants, etc), diagnose the location of faults, and replace faulty components. Just as the mechanic who services a car has no idea how anything inside any of the car's electronic components work (but can replace a failed ECU), the train mechanic probably has no ability to design or even functionally describe the control systems of a locomotive. Maybe you'll find one who has a personal interest in the technology...

 

[sierrablue]

Without a battery, the entire system just replaces the transmission with an electro-mechanical transmission system which is continuously variable (which is nice) but much less efficient than any conventional automotive transmission... and that doesn't make much sense.

OK, probably a really stupid thought here, but I'm pretty sure if this was the case, trains would use massive versions on automotive transmissions. Forget for a minute the 10kw Harbor Freight piece--assuming you got one that actually had a reasonable output, then it would adjust for how much power was actually being USED by the system. I suspect brian_ would want one battery at least, to help with regen braking, and also so that the power has somewhere to go when you're sitting at a stoplight not using much/any power.

With the generator setup you can set the load such that the engine is in whatever torque peak (most efficient points in an engine's power curve--lower ones in the rpm band generally take less gas and usually make a little less power) it needs to be to make adequate power, and will be most efficient at WOT, so if you can get it to run at like 1200 RPMs and WOT, and make enough power for your needs, then it should run well and get like 50 mpg (assuming you have an engine that is a good size for the application). Additionally, if you put that much load on it, it should require little to no cooling, as it won't be losing much energy as heat when you lug it that much.

 

[sierrablue]

Mechanics do maintenance (change lubricants, etc), diagnose the location of faults, and replace faulty components. Just as the mechanic who services a car has no idea how anything inside any of the car's electronic components work (but can replace a failed ECU), the train mechanic probably has no ability to design or even functionally describe the control systems of a locomotive. Maybe you'll find one who has a personal interest in the technology...

OK, so how DOES the ECU work? I'm not going to say you're wrong that they probably don't know--I'm much the same way with cars. But really it's just a motherboard (a bunch of wires organized on a green board, effectively), with some transistors and maybe a couple of transformers and such right? I mean it's just a computer...if anything goes wrong it's a broken wire or component?

 

[smokeycanadian]

I can't argue with @remy_martian 's first post but still..

when speeds were much lower and bodies likely quite lighter altogether there actually used to be just a few unusual buses in the northeast usa which were basically a genset engine under the hood paired to trolleys-borrowed (not surprising given the similar axle sizes) traction motor .. somewhere around the 1910-1930's timespan that is

I unforuantely can't find any examples right now due to the way the web is (even an exact search for 'diesel-electric bus 1920' still dumps a lot of modern non-electric bus photos all over, oh well) but I do know at least two different ones had made their appearance in station-related photos in the usa 'classic trains' magazines for one thing tho