Dilithium BMS with Porsche Taycan battery modules

11532 Views 41 Replies 16 Participants Last post by tks007, 2 mo ago

balex97

Discussion Starter · Feb 7, 2022

3

Hi,

we are building a Porsche 914 conversion, using battery modules from a Porsche Taycan.
We use the Hyper 9 motor 130V version, so our HV is limited to 125V. That is 5 Taycan Modules in series (one module has 25V max).
To get more capacity we want to parallel 3 of these battery packs, which would be 5 Taycan modules in series and 3 in parallel.
One battery pack will be in the front of the car, the other two in the back.
So there is a problem with the BMS. We used the Orion 2 BMS system in our former builds but it's not built for parallel wiring as the manual says. So I would need 3 seperate BMSs - one for every pack. This would be quite expensive (~3,500€)

So I had a look at the Dilithium BMS, which will probably be the better solution. But there is one question regarding the configuration.
I attached 2 configurations that make sense to me. The first one will be the safest I guess, the second one would safe me one BMS unit.

In the first version I use one controller and one satellite unit for every pack.

Rectangle Font Slope Schematic Parallel

In the second version I use one controller and one satellite unit for the front pack, and one controller and one satellite unit for the back pack, which is directly paralleled.

Rectangle Font Parallel Schematic Slope

I don't know if the second version is possible, because there only the modules are paralleled, but not the individual cells in the modules.

What would be the best option to solve this?

Thanks
Alex

See less See more

21 - 40 of 42 Posts

brian_

· #21 · Mar 24, 2022 (Edited)

bawfuls said:
I'm also very interested in where these Taycan modules were sourced as they sound like excellent candidates for high power (tesla motor) applications. Most OEM EVs now are designed around a 300-400v setup and wire the full pack in series, so in order to get that voltage you need a full pack (tough to fit in a lot of conversions) . But since the Taycan runs at 800V that opens the possibility of getting to 400v with only half an OEM pack. At 21.9v nominal and 129Ah per module, 16 in series gets you to 350v and 45kWh (with a 5C rate of 645A) which is sounds ideal for a small tesla drive unit.

Also interested in module weight and dimensions.

The Taycan appears to use modules following the VDA 355 standard. All VDA 355 modules - from any manufacturer - are laid out similarly, and always with the same case dimensions (355 x 151 x 108 mm). They weigh about 11 kg and have rated capacity from 2.2 kWh to 2.6 kWh. They all seem to have 12 cells, but could potentially be configured as 12S1P, 6S2P, 4S3P, 3S4P, 2S6P, or 1S12P.

In practice, most are 4S3P or 3S4P, but the Taycan uses 6S2P to reach the desired voltage. While the Taycan might be the only production EV currently using 6S2P VDA355 modules, this configuration is also available from Zero EV, manufactured by CALB, and from Electric GT as one variation of the Energy module line.

floydr

· #22 · Mar 24, 2022

brian_ said:
They weigh about 11 kg and have rated capacity from 22 kWh to 2.6 kWh.

I need some of these modules the 22kWh ones. Did you miss a decimal point?
2.2kwh-2.6kWh seems like it would be correct
later floyd

brian_

· #23 · Mar 24, 2022

floydr said:
I need some of these modules the 22kWh ones. Did you miss a decimal point?
2.2kwh-2.6kWh seems like it would be correct

Obviously, yes. I will correct the post.

Reactions: 1

bawfuls

· #24 · Mar 24, 2022 (Edited)

brian_ said:
The Taycan appears to use modules following the VDA 355 standard. All VDA 355 modules - from any manufacturer - are laid out similarly, and always with the same case dimensions (355 x 151 x 108 mm). They weigh about 11 kg and have rated capacity from 2.2 kWh to 2.6 kWh. They all seem to have 12 cells, but could potentially be configured as 12S1P, 6S2P, 4S3P, 3S4P, 2S6P, or 1S12P.

In practice, most are 4S3P or 3S4P, but the Taycan uses 6S2P to reach the desired voltage. While the Taycan might be the only production EV currently using 6S2P VDA355 modules, this configuration is also available from Zero EV, manufactured by CALB, and from Electric GT as one variation of the Energy module line.

Right, but the cost on those Zero EV and Electric GT modules is not that great ($313-360/kWh). If salvaged modules can be had for less, that would be very appealing.

Reactions: 2

brian_

· #25 · Mar 25, 2022

bawfuls said:
Right, but the cost on those Zero EV and Electric GT modules is not that great ($313-360/kWh). If salvaged modules can be had for less, that would be very appealing.

Absolutely

The suppliers of new modules are just an option if salvage can't be found. Another manufacturer of 6S2P VDA355 modules is Kore Power, but they likely don't sell to retail customers at all.

tks007

· #26 · Mar 30, 2022 (Edited)

Just to let you guys know that i made the CanBus gateway for these TayCan batteries.
So you can receive cell voltages etc. over canbus.

see: Here

The nice thing is it saves time wiring these modules.

Be aware that there are left and right models. (swapped polarity position) so make sure you ask for the right combination to make / build your pack.

balex97

Discussion Starter · #27 · Apr 27, 2022

2

remy_martian said:
Can you please post a photo of the bottom of that module - I'm curious.

Also, what do you plan to do for a cold plate?

bawfuls said:
I'm also very interested in where these Taycan modules were sourced as they sound like excellent candidates for high power (tesla motor) applications. Most OEM EVs now are designed around a 300-400v setup and wire the full pack in series, so in order to get that voltage you need a full pack (tough to fit in a lot of conversions) . But since the Taycan runs at 800V that opens the possibility of getting to 400v with only half an OEM pack. At 21.9v nominal and 129Ah per module, 16 in series gets you to 350v and 45kWh (with a 5C rate of 645A) which is sounds ideal for a small tesla drive unit.

Also interested in module weight and dimensions.

Hi, sorry for not answering. Didn't get any notifications on mail.
So we sourced these cells from a daughter company of Porsche in Austria. Only got these cells because of connections, they don't sell these usually.

I built a chillplate for each module for cooling, I attached a photo. If anyone interested, I also sell these.

Rectangle Wood Beige Fashion accessory Linens

Rectangle Nickel Gas Auto part Aluminium

See less See more

Reactions: 1

CrAzY_DrIveR

· #28 · 7 mo ago

did anyone ever try to cut a window on the side to access the individual cell voltages?

balex97

Discussion Starter · #29 · 7 mo ago

CrAzY_DrIveR said:
did anyone ever try to cut a window on the side to access the individual cell voltages?

Actually yes.
I cut the side with the 4 Pin plug along the welding lines using an angle grinder with a 0.8mm disk. Works quite fine, of course u need to be really careful with this.
Then I used a 13 pins pinheader and paralleled them to the taps.

Reactions: 1

CrAzY_DrIveR

· #30 · 7 mo ago (Edited)

6

I think my module is reversed from the one on your pdf.

This is just horrible to open, i understand why people just cut the complete side panel...

Wood Gas Machine Audio equipment Engineering

Circuit component Netbook Electronic component Computer hardware Passive circuit component

Material property Gas Office equipment Machine Audio equipment

Rectangle Gas Composite material Wood Electric blue

Window Rectangle Wood Fixture Material property

Wood Automotive tire Gas Metal Box

See less See more

ScythianNightingale

· #31 · 7 mo ago

Are these truly VDA355 format? if anyone with a physical unit could post measurement photos that would be outstanding

ScythianNightingale

· #32 · 6 mo ago

I decided to order one and measure it. it is ~390mm long but the same width and height as the VDA355 size.

lalle.uddebo

· #33 · 5 mo ago

balex97 said:
Hi,

we are building a Porsche 914 conversion, using battery modules from a Porsche Taycan.
We use the Hyper 9 motor 130V version, so our HV is limited to 125V. That is 5 Taycan Modules in series (one module has 25V max).
To get more capacity we want to parallel 3 of these battery packs, which would be 5 Taycan modules in series and 3 in parallel.
One battery pack will be in the front of the car, the other two in the back.
So there is a problem with the BMS. We used the Orion 2 BMS system in our former builds but it's not built for parallel wiring as the manual says. So I would need 3 seperate BMSs - one for every pack. This would be quite expensive (~3,500€)

So I had a look at the Dilithium BMS, which will probably be the better solution. But there is one question regarding the configuration.
I attached 2 configurations that make sense to me. The first one will be the safest I guess, the second one would safe me one BMS unit.

In the first version I use one controller and one satellite unit for every pack.
View attachment 127442
In the second version I use one controller and one satellite unit for the front pack, and one controller and one satellite unit for the back pack, which is directly paralleled.
View attachment 127443
I don't know if the second version is possible, because there only the modules are paralleled, but not the individual cells in the modules.

What would be the best option to solve this?

Thanks
Alex

Tomdb said:
So taking an angle grinder to expose the cell taps is a good way to accomplish this?

Hello. I cut the build in BMS and solder in standard BMS with separat wiring connection.
Regards Lennart

lalle.uddebo

· #34 · 5 mo ago

balex97 said:
Hi,

we are building a Porsche 914 conversion, using battery modules from a Porsche Taycan.
We use the Hyper 9 motor 130V version, so our HV is limited to 125V. That is 5 Taycan Modules in series (one module has 25V max).
To get more capacity we want to parallel 3 of these battery packs, which would be 5 Taycan modules in series and 3 in parallel.
One battery pack will be in the front of the car, the other two in the back.
So there is a problem with the BMS. We used the Orion 2 BMS system in our former builds but it's not built for parallel wiring as the manual says. So I would need 3 seperate BMSs - one for every pack. This would be quite expensive (~3,500€)

So I had a look at the Dilithium BMS, which will probably be the better solution. But there is one question regarding the configuration.
I attached 2 configurations that make sense to me. The first one will be the safest I guess, the second one would safe me one BMS unit.

In the first version I use one controller and one satellite unit for every pack.
View attachment 127442
In the second version I use one controller and one satellite unit for the front pack, and one controller and one satellite unit for the back pack, which is directly paralleled.
View attachment 127443
I don't know if the second version is possible, because there only the modules are paralleled, but not the individual cells in the modules.

What would be the best option to solve this?

Thanks
Alex

Hello. I have a Taycan battery with different cell connection then in attached dok? Different version? Anyone now?
Regards Lennart

garvey

· #35 · 3 mo ago

Hi folks. Curious if anyone has come across any other suppliers of these VDA 355 style modules in the US or Canada? I'm on the hunt. Exploring a few Alibaba suppliers in China that seem like they're reselling from the CALB or CATL manufacturers, but unclear whether they are real or fake, and I'd also rather avoid the import headache if I can.

tks007

· #36 · 3 mo ago

garvey said:
Hi folks. Curious if anyone has come across any other suppliers of these VDA 355 style modules in the US or Canada? I'm on the hunt. Exploring a few Alibaba suppliers in China that seem like they're reselling from the CALB or CATL manufacturers, but unclear whether they are real or fake, and I'd also rather avoid the import headache if I can.

Send me DM or email. I think i can help.

balex97

Discussion Starter · #37 · 3 mo ago

lalle.uddebo said:
Hello. I have a Taycan battery with different cell connection then in attached dok? Different version? Anyone now?
Regards Lennart

There are normal an mirrored modules. The attached one is a normal module. In the mirrored ones the connections are slightly different.

Reactions: 1

lalle.uddebo

· #38 · 2 mo ago

balex97 said:
Hi,

we are building a Porsche 914 conversion, using battery modules from a Porsche Taycan.
We use the Hyper 9 motor 130V version, so our HV is limited to 125V. That is 5 Taycan Modules in series (one module has 25V max).
To get more capacity we want to parallel 3 of these battery packs, which would be 5 Taycan modules in series and 3 in parallel.
One battery pack will be in the front of the car, the other two in the back.
So there is a problem with the BMS. We used the Orion 2 BMS system in our former builds but it's not built for parallel wiring as the manual says. So I would need 3 seperate BMSs - one for every pack. This would be quite expensive (~3,500€)

So I had a look at the Dilithium BMS, which will probably be the better solution. But there is one question regarding the configuration.
I attached 2 configurations that make sense to me. The first one will be the safest I guess, the second one would safe me one BMS unit.

In the first version I use one controller and one satellite unit for every pack.
View attachment 127442
In the second version I use one controller and one satellite unit for the front pack, and one controller and one satellite unit for the back pack, which is directly paralleled.
View attachment 127443
I don't know if the second version is possible, because there only the modules are paralleled, but not the individual cells in the modules.

What would be the best option to solve this?

Thanks
Alex

Hello. How do you connect charger?
Lennart

lalle.uddebo

· #39 · 2 mo ago

balex97 said:
Yes I do. But currently there is no save way for me to use these boards because I'm not that deep into this system.
So I would like to use a more "out of the box solution" with basic features.

Hello. I cut the board att solder on a standard balancing board. I also connected an outer 6s balancing cable so I can check status of balance and cell voltage. Works fine.

Regards Lennart

balex97

Discussion Starter · #40 · 2 mo ago

lalle.uddebo said:
Hello. How do you connect charger?
Lennart

We use the Dilithium BMS with the MCU. There the chargers are connected via CANBUS.

21 - 40 of 42 Posts