[OliverH]

Anyone in Europe used 18650 with approval for the car? I had a look over this CALB LiFePo modules which turns out in a very heavy battery pack (bad kg/ KWH). Any way to show safety in an conceptional way or do I need to buy packs from Kreisel in Austria?

 

[Boxster-warp]

Hallo
Why you dont use Tesla Model s Moduls.
How many voltage have your Car.
Grüße Boxster-warp

 

[OliverH]

A Tesla Module has no safety approval (e.g. IEC 62133), only the entire pack with the Moduls, build into a Tesla. A battery module normally needs a safety approval. This is may be the reason most of the EV conversion builders are using the modules from CALB.
I plan to go with 96 V.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

This is may be the reason most of the EV conversion builders are using the modules from CALB

I don't know anyone who's building with CALB's today. Most conversions are using Tesla, Leaf, or Chevy packs because they are a fraction of the cost of CALB's and much safer than DIY 18650 packs.

 

[brian_]

A Tesla Module has no safety approval (e.g. IEC 62133), only the entire pack with the Moduls, build into a Tesla. A battery module normally needs a safety approval. This is may be the reason most of the EV conversion builders are using the modules from CALB.

While many DIY EV conversions have used CALB cells, I've never seen one use a complete CALB module. Are you saying that using a complete module has become common in Europe?

On CALB's US and international sites I see only one car-sized EV module, which is nominally rated at 310 V and 66 Ah (so only 20 kWh from a large 245 kg pack).

I plan to go with 96 V.

Are you saying that you found a 96 volt version of a commercially-produced module, or that you want to run only 96 volts instead of this CALB 310 volt pack?

Kreisel appears to offer packs for vehicle manufacturers; it doesn't look like they are offering to sell a single pack to a DIY conversion builder.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Anyone in Europe used 18650 with approval for the car?

Conversion requirements for EV's vary greatly within the countries of Europe. For example The Netherlands requires CE certified components and Ireland requires nothing.

Can you add your location to your profile and tell us more about your requirement so that we can provide relevant advice? Is this for a DIY conversion or a commercial conversion?

 

[OliverH]

I’m from Switzerland. All over Europe UN ECE 100 is valid:
https://publications.europa.eu/de/publication-detail/-/publication/fd8e6b47-d767-11e4-9de8-01aa75ed71a1/language-de
CE labelling (safety of machinery, certificate of confirmity) is usual.

This is for production in lots/ series. What about an inspection/ single approval?

 

[OliverH]

While many DIY EV conversions have used CALB cells, I've never seen one use a complete CALB module. Are you saying that using a complete module has become common in Europe?

On CALB's US and international sites I see only one car-sized EV module, which is nominally rated at 310 V and 66 Ah (so only 20 kWh from a large 245 kg pack).


Are you saying that you found a 96 volt version of a commercially-produced module, or that you want to run only 96 volts instead of this CALB 310 volt pack?

Kreisel appears to offer packs for vehicle manufacturers; it doesn't look like they are offering to sell a single pack to a DIY conversion builder.

This CALB Moduls of 3,2 V can be grouped in series to get the voltage and in parallel to get the necessary capacity.

In Germany you get this modules from companies like Heiko Fleck or Denis Murschel. I’m not a fan of this because of their low power density/ high weight.

 

[brian_]

This CALB Moduls of 3,2 V can be grouped in series to get the voltage and in parallel to get the necessary capacity.

Those are not what is normally called "modules"; they are simply individual cells. If your concern is approval for a complete battery package (with protective devices and housing), the CALB cells are no different from any other cell (including an 18650), since they don't include the battery management system, pack-level protective devices, or housing.

In Germany you get this modules from companies like Heiko Fleck or Denis Murschel. I’m not a fan of this because of their low power density/ high weight.

Murschel Electric Cars
Unfortunately, Google Translate thinks that this page is already in English, so it won't translate it for me, and I can read very little German. It appears that they do conversions, so they assemble packs, and they might supply a complete pack for your own conversion, but that's a guess. It doesn't seem to have much technical information (or it is buried in text so I'm not finding it), so I can't tell what cell type they are using.

Fleck Electroauto
The energy storage page specifies LiFePO4 cell chemistry, which will have lower energy density than the types of lithium cell now used in production EVs. If they use LiFePO4 for EVs, that would explain your concern.

The Fleck site leads to ecap Mobility. The ecap site provides almost no information, so they could be using any cell chemistry.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I’m from Switzerland. All over Europe UN ECE 100 is valid

Different versions of ECE 100 are enforced in different countries within Europe. That's why you get different requirements for CE testing and certification in Ireland and The Netherlands (for example).

This is for production in lots/ series. What about an inspection/ single approval?

You should probably talk to Anne at New Electric (here). They have been through the process of testing and certifying various EV components and you will probably need that if you're undertaking series production in Switzerland.

 

[OliverH]

Those are not what is normally called "modules"; they are simply individual cells. If your concern is approval for a complete battery package (with protective devices and housing), the CALB cells are no different from any other cell (including an 18650), since they don't include the battery management system, pack-level protective devices, or housing.



Murschel Electric Cars
Unfortunately, Google Translate thinks that this page is already in English, so it won't translate it for me, and I can read very little German. It appears that they do conversions, so they assemble packs, and they might supply a complete pack for your own conversion, but that's a guess. It doesn't seem to have much technical information (or it is buried in text so I'm not finding it), so I can't tell what cell type they are using.

Fleck Electroauto
The energy storage page specifies LiFePO4 cell chemistry, which will have lower energy density than the types of lithium cell now used in production EVs. If they use LiFePO4 for EVs, that would explain your concern.

The Fleck site leads to ecap Mobility. The ecap site provides almost no information, so they could be using any cell chemistry.

ECap is the company doing marketing for both companies. And yes they sell LiFePo.

 

[Boxster-warp]

Hello
Heiko Fleck is top.
He sell Tesla Moduls too, and the BMS for the Moduls.

96v System Are 5 modules, wheigt 127 kg without water.
For the 144v System you Need 7 modules.

What Car you whant Build?
Greetings Boxster-Warp

 

[OliverH]

It‘s a T2b Westfalia. Original with Typ4 Motor and the 081/CP gear box. I‘m currently in the phase building options to sort out the solution up to the end of summer. I‘ve a sabbatical this year and like to use the time for Restauration/ preparing the chassis. Therefore I need to know which battery solution will fit in.
I‘ll have closer look with Heiko Fleck, try to visit Kreisel and Heik Fleck in my Austria holidays (Salzburg area) and will talk to Anne from the Netherlands.
BMS / charging is an other issue to sort out. Plan is to get at least 200 km distance with a single charge. Is 260 Wh/km a possible value for a VW Bulli at 100/ 110 km/h?

 

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

Is 260 Wh/km a possible value for a VW Bulli at 100/ 110 km/h?

Nope.

That's about the best you could expect a small sportscar to get. Borderline motorbike territory.

400-800 wh/km at highway speeds maybe. A full size van is around 800-1000. A Tesla is closer to 400.


You're shoving a turd through the air fast, it takes energy to move the air out of the way of the turd brick. No getting around the physics of it, no drivetrain optimization is going to escape the air resistance physics that dominate at highway speeds.

 

[OliverH]

Nope.

That's about the best you could expect a small sportscar to get. Borderline motorbike territory.

400-800 wh/km at highway speeds maybe. A full size van is around 800-1000. A Tesla is closer to 400.


You're shoving a turd through the air fast, it takes energy to move the air out of the way of the turd brick. No getting around the physics of it, no drivetrain optimization is going to escape the air resistance physics that dominate at highway speeds.

My Tesla Model X is between 160 (urban roads) and 260/270 Wh (fully loaded with 6 persons, 3 bicycles on the bicycle carrier). On the weekend I need to draw the drive resistant graphs and motor power curves on this to get a better feeling.

 

[aquabiologist]

My 5 cents: My T2ab with pop top has a 35kw engine (original specs, but old engine so might be a bit less nowadays) weighs about 1500kg with all the camping stuff in it and does 110 km/h max. So its 350 wh/km at a 110km/h. I’m guessing 250 Wh/km on average keeping transmission and all just swapping the engine to electric.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Is 260 Wh/km a possible value for a VW Bulli at 100/ 110 km/h?

I will be able to give you real world figures for a comparable vehicle in the near future;

1967 VW Split Screen Van - "ICE Breaker"

 

[OliverH]

My 5 cents: My T2ab with pop top has a 35kw engine (original specs, but old engine so might be a bit less nowadays) weighs about 1500kg with all the camping stuff in it and does 110 km/h max. So its 350 wh/km at a 110km/h. I’m guessing 250 Wh/km on average keeping transmission and all just swapping the engine to electric.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

That’s close to my guess. The Cw x a is our enemy with such cars.

 

[OliverH]

I will be able to give you real world figures for a comparable vehicle in the near future;

1967 VW Split Screen Van - "ICE Breaker"

So cool. But a T1 is lighter and narrower than a T2

 

[OliverH]

Consumption looks like to be 280 @ 80 km/h, 380 Wh @ 100 km/h and round about 400 Wh @ 110 km/h resulting from a short look on driving resistance diagram.