[PatricioIN]

uh, having no dog in this race as it were - I think the responses from the actual makers - EVNetics and NGControls - have been quite respectful, mature and responsible. Keep up the good work guys. Lord knows we need it in this age of crazy politics, economics and personal attacks.

In the immortal words of Rodney King: "Why can't we all just get along?"

 

[ngcontrols]

Just set reasonable max current, voltage and power so you don't blow the motor, that's all. However, in most cases the problem is to figure those values out...

The beauty of series wound motors ... the ability to mix and match.

So you mentioned setting reasonable settings to avoid destroying the motors. I think there actually is some degree of "matching" motors and controllers. A running tally of 7 to 0 for motors destroyed by Soliton1's doesn't seem like a match made in heaven to me!

Now hold on there ... that statement's not intended to start a flame war. I think that running tally has to be taken in context, that there have been many a controller brand that have died an early death with the current offering of motors. In that context, this running tally proves a point - that you're Soliton1 isn't going to die.

But, there comes the important question of economics that can explain how motors and controllers can be "matched".

An Alltrax controller with a WarP 9 will work fine, but you won't get out of the motor what it can take.

A Zilla has shown for years that it's a good match for WarP motors. A Zilla claims a continuous current rating in the 300's of amps. This is in the same league as what the WarP motors can take. In my several years selling Zillas, I don't think I've ever heard of a Zilla *or* a motor destroyed. They just work well together. I would call that "matched".

The WarP-Drives were designed to fill the void that was left in the market by the Zillas disappearing. I think they do that very well. They have very similar continuous current ratings, and require about the same volume of installation space, weigh about the same, and all for about the same price as a Zilla was.

So there's two situations - a controller that can't full utilize a particular motor, and a controller that can fully utilize it, and will go into thermal cutback before it can destroy the motor. On the other end of the spectrum, there's the Soliton1. It's highly respectable 1000A continuous rating is more than double what any motor I know of will take (you have to consider the batteries too, but we'll keep it simple here). If you want that much extra headroom, then this is definitely the controller for you ... *but*, keep in mind, you have to pay for that over-construction!

I was a bit surprised by a thread somewhere earlier this year stating that the Soliton1's hadn't been used in any racing applications to date. I think this is a good fit for them. Racing is all about finding the weak link!

 

[esoneson]

The WarP-Drives were designed to fill the void that was left in the market by the Zillas disappearing.

Not to be picky but the WarP-Drives were designed well before the Zillas disappeared. They were is direct competition for a while. So I can't really agree with this statement.

I still would like to see some Warp-Drive users chime in on their experiences. Seems like those reports are a bit scarce......or I just haven't looked in the right places. A pointer to that type of report would be nice to see.

Eric

 

[dimitri]

Disclosure: Yep, I'm a Netgain dealer.

You could also become EVNetics dealer, so you can offer your customers a choice and let them decide which product they want. This way you can remain neutral since you would carry both products.

 

[DavidDymaxion]

Something really neat about ordering a Mini Cooper is you can do things like preset the radio stations online, so you pick up your car with the radio buttons already tuned to your favorite stations.

It would be neat if when you ordered a controller, on the online form you could set the max current, max rpm, etc. and the controller would be delivered preprogrammed, or have check boxes for "Warp 9 Settings," "Kostov 11 inch Settings," etc. You could also have "maximize range," "average," and "race" settings.

If nothing else, the max rpm limits change for different sizes of motors.

 

[Qer]

The WarP-Drives were designed to fill the void that was left in the market by the Zillas disappearing. I think they do that very well. They have very similar continuous current ratings, and require about the same volume of installation space, weigh about the same, and all for about the same price as a Zilla was.

So there's two situations - a controller that can't full utilize a particular motor, and a controller that can fully utilize it, and will go into thermal cutback before it can destroy the motor. On the other end of the spectrum, there's the Soliton1.

Well, as you said yourself, you have to look at it from the right perspective.

• At least one (maybe two?) zorched in the dyno when it was deliberately pushed to the limit and apparently a bit beyond it, a Zilla Z2K could torture a motor equally with it's continuous rating.
• Two simply melted because they ran at too low RPM for the built in fan to be able to keep it cool (a blower fixed that) and that at currents that both the Zilla and WarP-Drive could produce with their respective continuous ratings.
• One blew at the racing track and I'm not sure there were ever a good explanation why because it's twin is still in good shape.

The rest I don't remember the reasons for, but personally I think that one big reason we haven't seen so many blown motors with the Zillas has more to do with that most people ran Lead-Acid batteries until pretty recently. Unless you have pallets of Lead-Acid (which is hard to fit in a car but not so much a problem next to a dyno... ) it's probably a lot harder to zorch a motor with Lead-Acid than with Lithium. However, pretty much any controller can overheat a motor. It doesn't take that much current, especially if the motor is stalled or runs rather slow.

I was a bit surprised by a thread somewhere earlier this year stating that the Soliton1's hadn't been used in any racing applications to date.

Well, now there is. I know of at least one guy, twin controllers with twin motors.

Not to be picky but the WarP-Drives were designed well before the Zillas disappeared. They were is direct competition for a while. So I can't really agree with this statement.

No, he's right. The Zilla disappeared which led to the start of both the Soliton and WarP-Drive. Then it turned out that the Zilla was a Norwegian Blue ("It's not dead, it's just resting!") and popped back to production at EVC until everyone figured out that the only reason EVC was looking lively and strong was because someone had nailed it to the.... Ehrm. Well, anyway. Zilla was gone, both Soliton and WarP tried to fill the gap, Zilla got back (with worst possible timing too) and then did an encore on the exit from the market and it's future destiny is pretty much anyones guess.

It would be neat if when you ordered a controller, on the online form you could set the max current, max rpm, etc. and the controller would be delivered preprogrammed, or have check boxes for "Warp 9 Settings," "Kostov 11 inch Settings," etc. You could also have "maximize range," "average," and "race" settings.

Yep. Definitely a cool feature. Just very hard to pull off, I'm afraid, since you have to take current, voltage, rpm and time into account to try to estimate how hard you can push the motor. Don't hold your breath.

 

[JRP3]

Since we've seen many more dead controllers than dead motors I'd be much happier with an over powered controller. It's very easy to regulate the output with your right foot.

 

[david85]

I appreciate the valuable help others on this forum have given me during my build but this slamming of Netgain by Solitron should not be allowed by the admin. Oh wait, the admin is the one suggesting a refund is in order

Disclosure: Yep, I'm a Netgain dealer.

Off my soapbox.

I am suggesting that if delivery times cannot be met within a reasonable delay, the customer is within their right to ask for a refund - that goes for any business. The fact is the longer a customer waits in a situation like this, the fewer legal options they have and many in the EV world have lost money in situations like this even though I am not convinced NetGain is being deliberate in this particular case. The customer has a right to be cautious.

Yes, I am a business man myself.

Sure, asking for a refund is a perfectly reasonable response after being *lied to* about when the OP would be getting his controller. Six weeks? Eight weeks? Ten weeks? Never? People are understandably nervous about waiting a long time, then longer still, for their expensive components, especially after the EVComponents debacle...

"*lied* to" is not the best words to use here. "Lie: a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood". There was no deliberate intent to mislead dealers/customers on delivery times. We just haven't perfected our production scheduling. And yes, asking for a refund is perfectly within reason, although we'd hate to see anyone go.

I agree that *lied* is too strong a term here since there is no evidence that what is happening here deliberate.

Since we can't call this anything malice or deliberately deceptive, I ask that members and guests here take that into consideration when adding to, or reading this thread.

 

[major]

.....I think that one big reason we haven't seen so many blown motors with the Zillas has more to do with that most people ran Lead-Acid batteries until pretty recently. Unless you have pallets of Lead-Acid (which is hard to fit in a car but not so much a problem next to a dyno... ) it's probably a lot harder to zorch a motor with Lead-Acid than with Lithium. However, pretty much any controller can overheat a motor. It doesn't take that much current, especially if the motor is stalled or runs rather slow.

Hi Q,

I can't go back and pull the specifics, but I recall quite a few motor casualties attributed to Zillas, with Pb-Acid as well as Lithium. Hell, Bill and John are multiple offenders You silicon based life forms just get your kicks abusing the lower carbon based guys. Admit it

Zorched again,

major

ps...And then you have this guy. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=203284&postcount=475 And I think he has a Kostov under his belt. Cro is trying hard to catch John and Bill.

 

[Soundboats]

Well, ... since I started this chain I thought it was time to chime in again.

I did not intend to get into a discussion between Soliton and NetGain controllers. That is for a different thread. My concern was whether folks were actually receiving their NetGain controllers. All I had was a 1 sentence statement that I would get my controller in mid-October and then another e-mail (after I begged for a response) with one sentence saying it would be the end of November; no explanations, no apologies, no updates. This was from EV source which is run by the same folks who run NG controls.

If what I read in this thread from NG controls is correct then this is very bad customer service at a mininum. Given all the problems with EV components and other EV companies not producing I think I was right in being worried.

 

[EVfun]

[...] It's very easy to regulate the output with your right foot.

That's easy to SAY. I should not be left alone with electric potential.

 

[Tesseract]

I agree that *lied* is too strong a term here since there is no evidence that what is happening here deliberate.

Yep, I agree that it was too strong a word which is why I already edited my post to more accurately reflect what I was trying to convey - more of a situation where a dealer was giving the OP the run-around, not the controller manufacturer itself. Either way, it was a bit much.

 

[JRP3]

That's easy to SAY. I should not be left alone with electric potential.

I see AH's and dollars flying out of my pack when I mash the pedal Basically it's a self regulating pack

 

[Evnetics Chris]

What Tesseract and Qer meant to say:

"We completely sympathize with other companies that struggle to meet lead times. In fact without our dedicated, brilliant, handsome, and all-around-good-guy mechanical engineer Chris and his staff, who thanklessly busts their asses on a daily basis to deliver quality product quickly, Evnetics would surely be belly up by now."


Seriously though, we do sympathize with anyone manufacturing products as complicated as EV parts at DIY market volumes. Keeping a constant stock of product takes a considerable effort. Evnetics was created by us DIYers when we were unhappy with the selection and availability of motor controllers. So as manufacturing director I take lead times very seriously, because I've experience how frustrating it can be to wait by the mailbox. Our official lead time is one week after ordering, but internally I push everyone to have products on the truck the day of or the day after we receive payment. For the most part we have been able to meet that (with the occasional supplier issue) but it has not been an easy road here.

Now that I have been on both sides of the ordering process I can tell you that there are a ton of variables that can push back shipments. Variables that are very difficult to overcome at the volume of this industry. So while waiting for your EV parts try to keep in mind that it is unlikely the suppliers have not shipped because they are on a ski trip in Vail, sailing on their yachts, or golfing with politicians. For the most part, we're all in this because we believe in EVs and we're working hard to get you safe quality products.

If you ever have questions or problems with our lead times please contact me directly.
--
Christian Ruoff
Director of Manufacturing Operations
Evnetics

[email protected]
727.895.9595

 

[sjc]

It's unprofessional to throw out political style backhanded comments like these. I notice them and as a Netgain motor AND controller owner, they stick with me for a long time...the controller is high quality and the anodizing is absolutely beautiful! I appreciate the valuable help others on this forum have given me during my build but this slamming of Netgain by Solitron should not be allowed by the admin. Oh wait, the admin is the one suggesting a refund is in order

Disclosure: Yep, I'm a Netgain dealer.

Off my soapbox.

I wish Tahoe Tim would have had this position back during the EVC kerfuffle. He lambasted me for questioning what was going on over at EVC when I didn't get my Zilla, or charger, or ... back in February/March. He went so far as to insult my professional competence in my field of work, which had nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Funny thing, though, when the "upright citizen" he defended turned out to be the villain, and I turned out to be correct, he never apologized or admitted he was wrong.

 

[ngcontrols]

So while waiting for your EV parts try to keep in mind that it is unlikely the suppliers have not shipped because they are on a ski trip in Vail, sailing on their yachts, or golfing with politicians.

Wow, you can say that again! It's been a long, vacationless last couple of years!

But when you hear about someone getting their EV on the road with that EV Grin from ear to ear, saying it's their favorite car ever, that makes it all worth it!

Thanks Chris for your nice words. You guys work miracles!

 

[Soundboats]

Chris and others in the manufacturing business.
I understand there can be problems with suppliers and parts that delay production. However that does not excuse letting your customers "hang out there" for 3 1/2 months without any information. I would be much readier to accept the delays if I was informed about the issues. We are not mindless consumers who just fork over the $$ and behave like sheep. Remember one bad sales experience is more damaging than 10 good ones.

 

[Snakub]

But is there an answer as to why the long wait time?

 

[JRP3]

Did you bother to read the thread?

 

[ngcontrols]

But is there an answer as to why the long wait time?

First off, understand that what EVNetics (The "Soliton Guys" as we call them ), are pulling off is a real feat. They have a solid high power, high voltage controller, good support, and it ships fast. This (especially the last point) is unprecedented in the high power controller market. Due to the lead times, I have referred more than one sale to them, even though they are a "competitor".

Lead times over the years for such a product have been anywhere from 4 to 10 months. Why? Because volumes are relatively low, you don't buy the parts to build them at Wal-Mart, and it's a beastly complicated product to do "right". Our goal at NetGain Controls is to have the units in stock. It's not going to happen overnight, but we'll hopefully be there by early spring. Please note that the highest priority is and will always be given to quality and safety. We could definitely whittle lead times down if there wasn't so much emphasis on these points (not suggesting in any way that others have done this).