Joined
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6,650 Posts
Hi
I thought I should start a build thread now I have started brazing
The plan
Two seater lotus 7 Locost type vehicle
Performance
Appropriate performance for the style – not too slow
And I would like to enter some speed events – sprints, hill-climbs, 1/8th mile drags
Range
I live in the wrong part of the country for electric vehicles, there are only one million people in the whole of South Island and Southland has a low population density even for South Island,
This means that the limited range is more of an issue as you have to drive further to get anywhere, my commute is only 4 Km , I should use my bike!
My car will come into the “toy” category
The nearest “Big City” is Invercargill (50,000 people) so I would like enough range to get to Invercargill and back – 160Km may have to recharge in Invercargill
Budget (New Zealand Dollars)
As a Scot I intend to spend as little as possible
Motor -------------$100
Donor Car----------already owned
Chassis + Bits--------$2000?
Controller Expensive -----$2,500??
Batteries Very Expensive---- 11,000??
I will replace any parts that need to be replaced – but if it’s still good I will clean, paint and re-use
Subaru front and rear suspension – same make front/rear so the wheels fit
Subaru have four wheel drive, the front hubs can be used by removing the driveshafts
The rear has a nice diff and suspension
Common in NZ,
I had an old Subaru Legacy that died so I now have all of the bits
Hitachi 48v 10Kw motor from forklift
motor is 11 inches in diameter and weighs 102Kg
Those are the bits I HAVE,
I intend to buy:
Zilla Controler
48 off Thunder-Sky 160 (or 200) Ah cells
Pieces I have weighed (Kg)
Motor---------------------------102
Rear Sub-frame and diff----------44.5
Rear corners (2)------------------44
Front Sub-frame -----------------20
Front corners (2) ----------------50
Wheels (4)----------------------64
Total----------------------------324
Estimates of weight
Batteries ------------------270 or 290 (from spec sheet)
Zilla-------------------------15
Chassis----------------------60
Rack, -------------------------5
Driveshafts ------------------10
Interior------------------------10
Body ------------------------50
Total-----------------------420--------440
Grand Total ---------------744--------764
Bit disappointing I was hoping for 650Kg!
Suspension
I am a heretic in that I am very suspicious of “roll centres”
There is a method of logic called “Reductio Ad Absurdum”
You take an ASSUMPTION OR RULE to its extremes
If it produces an absurd or silly answer then the ASSUMPTION OR RULE is absurd or silly
The idea of a roll centre (found by extending lines from suspension components) is that the vehicle rotates around that centre and the distance between the height of the centre of mass and the “roll centre determines the roll couple which is then resisted by the roll stiffness.
It is quite easy to produce suspension with “roll centres” from under the ground to above the centre of mass.
Those will according to the “roll centre rule” produce massively different roll couples
Simple physics says that a force is required move the car around the bend (centripetal force)
This force acts at the centre of mass
For a car the force has to re-act through the tire contact patch
This causes a couple (torque)
(The centripetal force times the distance between the ground and the centre of mass)
The roll couple which is then resisted by the roll stiffness
This does not change with the suspension geometry -
If you maintain the same roll stiffness and centre of mass you roll the same
Using the roll centre you get a result that is contrary to the laws of physics -Jim
(A Silly Result)
Throw away the roll centres!
What do we have left to worry about?
The suspension's job is to cope with bumps without rattling my teeth
To keep the tires vertical
Not to move the tires sideways (scrub)
Without active suspension this is not possible so we go to
To keep the tires as vertical as possible
To move the tires sideways (scrub) as little as possible
Avoid Camber change in Roll or Acceleration/braking
Avoid Scrub in Roll or Acceleration/braking
The standard Subaru Legacy probably rolls over 5 degrees when being hooooned
The strut suspension only recovers 1 degree at the front and about 2 degrees at the back
Which means the tyres lean by 4 degrees at the front and 3 degrees at the back.
Not good for keeping the tread square to the road
It is easy to get more correction in roll – just move the strut tops inwards towards each other
(You then need to modify the base of the strut where it bolts onto the upright to achieve the correct wheel camber)
The standard setup has an effective strut angle of 76 degrees at the front and 65 degrees at the rear
If you tilt the struts inwards you get a situation where you lift the front of the car when you steer.
Many years ago I had a mini with a Lancia engine and heavily inclined struts
That handled really well and the front lifting effect was not a problem
Anyway the PLAN is to have all of the heavy things (except me) right down on the floor so I calculate the centre of mass will be between 400 and 500 mm from the ground
I intend using springs with the same rate as the Subaru,
With a lower mass this will make the vehicle sporty without rattling my teeth too much
The combination of a lower centre of mass and a lower weight along with the same roll stiffness will reduce the amount of roll
I calculate a 1g corner would result in less than 2 degrees of roll
With this amount of roll the standard suspension set-up should be fine
If I do decide to move the strut tops it will be because of aesthetics.
I will still have the option of changing all of the rubber bits for aftermarket bushes if necessary
Motor and driveline
The motor I got second hand, it had just been rebuilt when its forklift was scrapped so everything looks new. The brushes were not bedded in so I shaped them using sandpaper.
The motor had a splined output shaft and a brake on the commutator end.
Inside the brake was a female spline adapter with a spigot and four studs.
The original plan was to use a ford gearbox but I calculated
Motor torque
Assume it’s like a Warp 11 then 135 Ft-lb’s is available
Diff ratio 4.1:1
Torque at wheels 135 x 4.1 = 553 Ft-lb’s
Wheel + Tire radius (185/70/14) = 1 ft
Force at tire contact = 553 lbs-force
Using my planned wt
Vehicle wt ,650 kg = 1430 lbs ------------(750 Kg = 1650 lbs)
50% on rear = 715 lbs --------------------(825 lbs)
Tire grip (std road tires) 80%
Tire grip = 80% of 715 lbs is 572 lbs--------(825 lbs = 660 lbs)
It did not seem to be worth the extra complexity of a gearbox,
the extra weight makes it less definitive but by then I had found that the gearbox would have made the drive train too long
The plan then became
Use the Motor driving the diff through a prop-shaft,
The Subaru used a two piece shaft
I laid out the motor and diff and the rear of the Subaru shaft –
RATS too long I will have to get it shortened
The drive-train was too long as I was planning on using the “engine bay” as my main battery box
The female spline adapter from the brake will be used with a simple adapter to match it to the prop-shaft.
The spline adapter will be left free to move along the motor splined shaft
(Like the output from a gearbox)
I thought I should start a build thread now I have started brazing
The plan
Two seater lotus 7 Locost type vehicle
Performance
Appropriate performance for the style – not too slow
And I would like to enter some speed events – sprints, hill-climbs, 1/8th mile drags
Range
I live in the wrong part of the country for electric vehicles, there are only one million people in the whole of South Island and Southland has a low population density even for South Island,
This means that the limited range is more of an issue as you have to drive further to get anywhere, my commute is only 4 Km , I should use my bike!
My car will come into the “toy” category
The nearest “Big City” is Invercargill (50,000 people) so I would like enough range to get to Invercargill and back – 160Km may have to recharge in Invercargill
Budget (New Zealand Dollars)
As a Scot I intend to spend as little as possible
Motor -------------$100
Donor Car----------already owned
Chassis + Bits--------$2000?
Controller Expensive -----$2,500??
Batteries Very Expensive---- 11,000??
I will replace any parts that need to be replaced – but if it’s still good I will clean, paint and re-use
Subaru front and rear suspension – same make front/rear so the wheels fit
Subaru have four wheel drive, the front hubs can be used by removing the driveshafts
The rear has a nice diff and suspension
Common in NZ,
I had an old Subaru Legacy that died so I now have all of the bits
Hitachi 48v 10Kw motor from forklift
motor is 11 inches in diameter and weighs 102Kg
Those are the bits I HAVE,
I intend to buy:
Zilla Controler
48 off Thunder-Sky 160 (or 200) Ah cells
Pieces I have weighed (Kg)
Motor---------------------------102
Rear Sub-frame and diff----------44.5
Rear corners (2)------------------44
Front Sub-frame -----------------20
Front corners (2) ----------------50
Wheels (4)----------------------64
Total----------------------------324
Estimates of weight
Batteries ------------------270 or 290 (from spec sheet)
Zilla-------------------------15
Chassis----------------------60
Rack, -------------------------5
Driveshafts ------------------10
Interior------------------------10
Body ------------------------50
Total-----------------------420--------440
Grand Total ---------------744--------764
Bit disappointing I was hoping for 650Kg!
Suspension
I am a heretic in that I am very suspicious of “roll centres”
There is a method of logic called “Reductio Ad Absurdum”
You take an ASSUMPTION OR RULE to its extremes
If it produces an absurd or silly answer then the ASSUMPTION OR RULE is absurd or silly
The idea of a roll centre (found by extending lines from suspension components) is that the vehicle rotates around that centre and the distance between the height of the centre of mass and the “roll centre determines the roll couple which is then resisted by the roll stiffness.
It is quite easy to produce suspension with “roll centres” from under the ground to above the centre of mass.
Those will according to the “roll centre rule” produce massively different roll couples
Simple physics says that a force is required move the car around the bend (centripetal force)
This force acts at the centre of mass
For a car the force has to re-act through the tire contact patch
This causes a couple (torque)
(The centripetal force times the distance between the ground and the centre of mass)
The roll couple which is then resisted by the roll stiffness
This does not change with the suspension geometry -
If you maintain the same roll stiffness and centre of mass you roll the same
Using the roll centre you get a result that is contrary to the laws of physics -Jim
(A Silly Result)
Throw away the roll centres!
What do we have left to worry about?
The suspension's job is to cope with bumps without rattling my teeth
To keep the tires vertical
Not to move the tires sideways (scrub)
Without active suspension this is not possible so we go to
To keep the tires as vertical as possible
To move the tires sideways (scrub) as little as possible
Avoid Camber change in Roll or Acceleration/braking
Avoid Scrub in Roll or Acceleration/braking
The standard Subaru Legacy probably rolls over 5 degrees when being hooooned
The strut suspension only recovers 1 degree at the front and about 2 degrees at the back
Which means the tyres lean by 4 degrees at the front and 3 degrees at the back.
Not good for keeping the tread square to the road
It is easy to get more correction in roll – just move the strut tops inwards towards each other
(You then need to modify the base of the strut where it bolts onto the upright to achieve the correct wheel camber)
The standard setup has an effective strut angle of 76 degrees at the front and 65 degrees at the rear
If you tilt the struts inwards you get a situation where you lift the front of the car when you steer.
Many years ago I had a mini with a Lancia engine and heavily inclined struts
That handled really well and the front lifting effect was not a problem
Anyway the PLAN is to have all of the heavy things (except me) right down on the floor so I calculate the centre of mass will be between 400 and 500 mm from the ground
I intend using springs with the same rate as the Subaru,
With a lower mass this will make the vehicle sporty without rattling my teeth too much
The combination of a lower centre of mass and a lower weight along with the same roll stiffness will reduce the amount of roll
I calculate a 1g corner would result in less than 2 degrees of roll
With this amount of roll the standard suspension set-up should be fine
If I do decide to move the strut tops it will be because of aesthetics.
I will still have the option of changing all of the rubber bits for aftermarket bushes if necessary
Motor and driveline
The motor I got second hand, it had just been rebuilt when its forklift was scrapped so everything looks new. The brushes were not bedded in so I shaped them using sandpaper.
The motor had a splined output shaft and a brake on the commutator end.
Inside the brake was a female spline adapter with a spigot and four studs.
The original plan was to use a ford gearbox but I calculated
Motor torque
Assume it’s like a Warp 11 then 135 Ft-lb’s is available
Diff ratio 4.1:1
Torque at wheels 135 x 4.1 = 553 Ft-lb’s
Wheel + Tire radius (185/70/14) = 1 ft
Force at tire contact = 553 lbs-force
Using my planned wt
Vehicle wt ,650 kg = 1430 lbs ------------(750 Kg = 1650 lbs)
50% on rear = 715 lbs --------------------(825 lbs)
Tire grip (std road tires) 80%
Tire grip = 80% of 715 lbs is 572 lbs--------(825 lbs = 660 lbs)
It did not seem to be worth the extra complexity of a gearbox,
the extra weight makes it less definitive but by then I had found that the gearbox would have made the drive train too long
The plan then became
Use the Motor driving the diff through a prop-shaft,
The Subaru used a two piece shaft
I laid out the motor and diff and the rear of the Subaru shaft –
RATS too long I will have to get it shortened
The drive-train was too long as I was planning on using the “engine bay” as my main battery box
The female spline adapter from the brake will be used with a simple adapter to match it to the prop-shaft.
The spline adapter will be left free to move along the motor splined shaft
(Like the output from a gearbox)
). I recognise your explanation.
