Joined
·
195 Posts
Hey Duncan, any idea what motor volts/amps were at when it blew? Just wondering how much was too much for that motor. With your high voltage pack, what was your peak motor volts? I saw 1200 peak amps.
Duncan's Dubious Device
241 - 260 of 403 Posts
Joined
·
6,650 Posts
Hi
I can't read the instruments when I'm on the track
But I'm pretty sure I was well over peak motor current and into 100% controller territory
I would estimate about 700 amps 4500 rpm and about 300v when it blew
BUT it wasn't the com/brushes that went - I was sure that those would go first
I think that something went through the motor and damaged that specific wire which then failed and produced a big arc
I have been abusing it for the last five years!
Joined
·
195 Posts
I'm sure those windings get pretty hot at that level of power. That one armature winding may have came loose and threw out enough to tag something and arc. Doesn't really matter now anyway. Sorry you lost your motor. I've been keeping an eye on your car since I have the same motor that I still hope to use someday. I figured it could take some serious amps, but I never thought it would handle 300 volts.
Joined
·
575 Posts
Duncan, You have done us a great service. It's not everyday that we get the sort of data that you have given us. We now have a better idea of the limitations of a motor like yours. I am sorry it came at such a cost. I hope you can find a suitable / cost effective replacement soon.
Obviously we are pushing these motors past their designed purpose and sometimes past their physical limitations. It is very dificult to know where to draw the line. They don't give audible warnings like ICE motors do.....until it's too late.
Please keep us posted on your progress.
Obviously we are pushing these motors past their designed purpose and sometimes past their physical limitations. It is very dificult to know where to draw the line. They don't give audible warnings like ICE motors do.....until it's too late.
Please keep us posted on your progress.
Joined
·
6,650 Posts
Hi Guys
Just back from Dunedin
The guy had a LOT of motors so I have picked up one that is exactly the same model as my old one and a dinky little 9 inch motor to have a look at
He has another three or four more Hitachi's like mine but a bit later and about 20mm longer
$200 each for the big ones and $100 for the 9 inch
I will need to clean then up and take pictures!
Just back from Dunedin
The guy had a LOT of motors so I have picked up one that is exactly the same model as my old one and a dinky little 9 inch motor to have a look at
He has another three or four more Hitachi's like mine but a bit later and about 20mm longer
$200 each for the big ones and $100 for the 9 inch
I will need to clean then up and take pictures!
Joined
·
1,020 Posts
Coat those windings! Or get the arm. and stator dipped and baked at a motor shop.http://what-when-how.com/electric-motors/dip-and-bake-systems-electric-motors/
Megaohming the parts before and during the clean-up and re-coating process(es) would also be a good idea, since you're using it at such a high voltage.
Megaohming the parts before and during the clean-up and re-coating process(es) would also be a good idea, since you're using it at such a high voltage.
Joined
·
575 Posts
This sounds like good advice. I will keep this in mind if I ever choose to increase my voltage.
Duncan, Its great to hear you have some options up your sleeve. I can't wait to hear that you have it back up an running.
Joined
·
6,650 Posts
OK
I have completed the trolleys I promised to the high school and cleared the wood work out of my shed
Back to business!
Only allowed to up load 10 files at a time
Here we have the new armature - com area - looks good to me
The brush holder - looks like a bit of rust
Brushes - only 4 of the eight brushes present - and one of those was well stuck
Looks as if they were cocked over in the holders when running
The armature from the side - small amount of water damage
I have completed the trolleys I promised to the high school and cleared the wood work out of my shed
Back to business!
Only allowed to up load 10 files at a time
Here we have the new armature - com area - looks good to me
The brush holder - looks like a bit of rust
Brushes - only 4 of the eight brushes present - and one of those was well stuck
Looks as if they were cocked over in the holders when running
The armature from the side - small amount of water damage
Attachments
Joined
·
575 Posts
You should have a word with a site administrator about that
Is this the past or future motor?
Joined
·
6,650 Posts
Part two
Another picture of the armature
Pictures of the inside of the stator - field coils
Now back to my old motor - copper plastered onto the field coils - and I think it has burnt into the insulation
I used to get nothing at all on my meters 20 MegOhm scale - now field coil to the metal gives me 0.5 MegOhm
So that's dead as well!
Plan is to select the best of the brush holders and springs
QUESTION - I'm hoping that Major will help me here
Sand blast them?
If I do is there anything I should do to preserve them afterwards?
QUESTION
Dip or laqueur the armature? - I'm inclined to leave it the way that Hitachi left it
I'm being a lot more careful with the armature on this one ensuring that nothing bumps into the armature laminations - with the weight of the armature I may have banged the old one against the field coils - I'm using a hoist and doing it all in the vertical frame
I also have a collection of brushes I was given - I intend to do some measuring and sorting - see exactly what I have
Taking a bit longer than I planned
Another picture of the armature
Pictures of the inside of the stator - field coils
Now back to my old motor - copper plastered onto the field coils - and I think it has burnt into the insulation
I used to get nothing at all on my meters 20 MegOhm scale - now field coil to the metal gives me 0.5 MegOhm
So that's dead as well!
Plan is to select the best of the brush holders and springs
QUESTION - I'm hoping that Major will help me here
Sand blast them?
If I do is there anything I should do to preserve them afterwards?
QUESTION
Dip or laqueur the armature? - I'm inclined to leave it the way that Hitachi left it
I'm being a lot more careful with the armature on this one ensuring that nothing bumps into the armature laminations - with the weight of the armature I may have banged the old one against the field coils - I'm using a hoist and doing it all in the vertical frame
I also have a collection of brushes I was given - I intend to do some measuring and sorting - see exactly what I have
Taking a bit longer than I planned
Attachments
Joined
·
6,650 Posts
Hi Galderdi
The two pictures with molten copper sprayed onto the coils are my "old" motor
The rest are my "new" motor
Bit of rust inside the "new" motor but I think that's ok - except for the rust on the brush holders - that will need to be fixed
The two pictures with molten copper sprayed onto the coils are my "old" motor
The rest are my "new" motor
Bit of rust inside the "new" motor but I think that's ok - except for the rust on the brush holders - that will need to be fixed
Joined
·
1,020 Posts
Yes, but Hitachi probably dipped it many decades ago. The varnish may have dried out, cracked, or been worn away by now. As well as a insulator, the varnish glues the windings in place to keep them from shifting around and chafing the insulation. That's probably what doomed your old motor.
Check what the motor shops suggest for a high voltage, current, and RPM severe duty usage. Also, check the condition of the fiberglass (usually) tension bands around the exposed windings. The glue holding them on may have dried out and weakened.
Joined
·
6,650 Posts
Hi Guys
Brush holders and brushes
The rusty brush holders are from the "new motor"
The black looking brush holders are from my old motor
I'm thinking of using the "old" brush holders and giving them a very quick and gentle clean
Thoughts?? - or should I sand blast them down to clean metal?
Brushes
The brushes from the "new motor" looked horrible - were worn down and there only were three setts
The brushes with the blue insulation came from my old motor
I have been told that the blue means that they were soldered together here in NZ
Dimensions - Blue insulator
Width -24.9 mm Thickness 16.99 mm - Length - from 25 mm to 26 mm
I have been given the brushes with the grey insulation
These look in much better condition
Dimensions - Grey insulator
Width -24.9 mm Thickness 16.99 mm - Length - from 27 mm to 29 mm
There is a code on some of them E46X - it may be E48X
And one of each pair has a channel in it
Current plan
Drill and tap the "Barrel" so that I can advance the brushes by 8 degrees - as before
Clean the outside and gently clean the inside
Fit my old brush holders and the brushes with the grey insulation
Run it in on 12v for an hour or so
Fit it into the Device!
I also have a new GPS Speedo and an idea for moving the instruments so that I will be able to see them in the sunshine - NOT a problem I had back in the UK
Brush holders and brushes
The rusty brush holders are from the "new motor"
The black looking brush holders are from my old motor
I'm thinking of using the "old" brush holders and giving them a very quick and gentle clean
Thoughts?? - or should I sand blast them down to clean metal?
Brushes
The brushes from the "new motor" looked horrible - were worn down and there only were three setts
The brushes with the blue insulation came from my old motor
I have been told that the blue means that they were soldered together here in NZ
Dimensions - Blue insulator
Width -24.9 mm Thickness 16.99 mm - Length - from 25 mm to 26 mm
I have been given the brushes with the grey insulation
These look in much better condition
Dimensions - Grey insulator
Width -24.9 mm Thickness 16.99 mm - Length - from 27 mm to 29 mm
There is a code on some of them E46X - it may be E48X
And one of each pair has a channel in it
Current plan
Drill and tap the "Barrel" so that I can advance the brushes by 8 degrees - as before
Clean the outside and gently clean the inside
Fit my old brush holders and the brushes with the grey insulation
Run it in on 12v for an hour or so
Fit it into the Device!
I also have a new GPS Speedo and an idea for moving the instruments so that I will be able to see them in the sunshine - NOT a problem I had back in the UK
Attachments
Joined
·
1,020 Posts
Duncan! You're running the motor at 8-10 times the stock voltage. The motor is going to need all the help it can get to survive. At least apply the good part of a rattle can(spray paint can) of a good insulating varnish(paint) designed for motor windings from an industrial supplier. It's cheap insurance for the kind of thrashing you're going to put this motor through.
Since the paint is solvent based, the heavy coatings needed will take some time to dry-several days or more. Also, it can be baked. I've used it a lot. If the armature is rotated slowly mechanically or by hand incrementally every 10 to 20 minutes, initially, I've gotten good coverage and never had an imbalance problem. And, it makes the windings look good, easier to clean, shed dirt, and impress your fellow motor heads!!
Since the paint is solvent based, the heavy coatings needed will take some time to dry-several days or more. Also, it can be baked. I've used it a lot. If the armature is rotated slowly mechanically or by hand incrementally every 10 to 20 minutes, initially, I've gotten good coverage and never had an imbalance problem. And, it makes the windings look good, easier to clean, shed dirt, and impress your fellow motor heads!!
Joined
·
1,020 Posts
Here's a giant rotor out of a hydroelectric dam: http://emadrlc.blogspot.com/2012/07/rotor-out-of-nevada-side-generator.html
Obviously, it is too big to dip to renew the winding insulation! Witness the paper taped to the floor below the rotor to catch the over-spray from painting the windings. It looks like Schenectady Red winding paint-the traditional paint used.
This is probably the same paint used on a giant stator:https://teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/22477/benmore-rebuilt
In NZ, no less!
Obviously, it is too big to dip to renew the winding insulation! Witness the paper taped to the floor below the rotor to catch the over-spray from painting the windings. It looks like Schenectady Red winding paint-the traditional paint used.
This is probably the same paint used on a giant stator:https://teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/22477/benmore-rebuilt
In NZ, no less!
Joined
·
6,650 Posts
Hi Electro wrks
My limited experience with glues, paints and lacquers all says that the absolute KEY is the surface treatment before applying the "glue"
As in the difference between a coat that can peel off and something that becomes part of the unit
My problem is that I really don't want to do anything aggressive to the armature assembly and I am definitely NOT going to strip it down to parts so that it could be re-done the way that Hitachi did it - decades ago -
So I am loath to do anything aggressive to the existing coating - and at the same time I'm not at all sure than any extra "glue" will stick well enough to do any good without that aggressive cleaning
The examples you show are of large units - and I bet they will be very careful and know exactly how to approach the cleaning and re-gluing
My limited experience with glues, paints and lacquers all says that the absolute KEY is the surface treatment before applying the "glue"
As in the difference between a coat that can peel off and something that becomes part of the unit
My problem is that I really don't want to do anything aggressive to the armature assembly and I am definitely NOT going to strip it down to parts so that it could be re-done the way that Hitachi did it - decades ago -
So I am loath to do anything aggressive to the existing coating - and at the same time I'm not at all sure than any extra "glue" will stick well enough to do any good without that aggressive cleaning
The examples you show are of large units - and I bet they will be very careful and know exactly how to approach the cleaning and re-gluing
Joined
·
1,020 Posts
Good points about the cleaning before painting. I remember one hydro dam generator was cleaned with a walnut shell blast medium before painting. I have successfully used Stoddard (close to mineral spirits, paint thinner) solvent to clean the windings on dozens of motors from small universal motors in power tools to motors larger than yours. I've never seen these mild solvents harm the insulation coatings on motor windings. If you not sure, test the solvent on a sample area. Make sure the solvent is completely dried out before painting.
One large wound-rotor induction motor from a large printing press was so heavily caked with paper dust and grease, it needed to be scrubbed with soap and a water blast. After it was cleaned, it was rinsed with a lot of distilled water and baked dry. After it was dried, and before painting, it megaohmed out as good.
Did you have a chance to talk to a motor shop about their recommendations?
One large wound-rotor induction motor from a large printing press was so heavily caked with paper dust and grease, it needed to be scrubbed with soap and a water blast. After it was cleaned, it was rinsed with a lot of distilled water and baked dry. After it was dried, and before painting, it megaohmed out as good.
Did you have a chance to talk to a motor shop about their recommendations?
Joined
·
6,650 Posts
Hi electro works
I have been thinking about the failure I had and looking at the parts
I think that it may have been my own fault
When I look at the old armature the first few laminations have some gaps - looks a bit like the pages of a book
The armature is quite heavy - 50kg? - and I took the barrel off the old armature a number of times in the horizontal mode
I worry that I managed to damage the armature - and its wires against the field coils - or more accurately their cores
I'm going to take a great deal more care with the "new" one - doing everything in a vertical mode and using a hoist to take the weight of the barrel so I can ensure it does not bash on the rotor
With what I know about glues and preparation I'm not at all sure that I can actually improve on the original Hitachi work PLUS if I do do anything it will increase the amount of handling of a very heavy and possibly delicate armature
I think I will rebuild this one using the bits that I have to get my car back on the road - I will also try and get my hands on another one (third) that could be possibly torn down and re-glued and baked over a longer time period
I have been thinking about the failure I had and looking at the parts
I think that it may have been my own fault
When I look at the old armature the first few laminations have some gaps - looks a bit like the pages of a book
The armature is quite heavy - 50kg? - and I took the barrel off the old armature a number of times in the horizontal mode
I worry that I managed to damage the armature - and its wires against the field coils - or more accurately their cores
I'm going to take a great deal more care with the "new" one - doing everything in a vertical mode and using a hoist to take the weight of the barrel so I can ensure it does not bash on the rotor
With what I know about glues and preparation I'm not at all sure that I can actually improve on the original Hitachi work PLUS if I do do anything it will increase the amount of handling of a very heavy and possibly delicate armature
I think I will rebuild this one using the bits that I have to get my car back on the road - I will also try and get my hands on another one (third) that could be possibly torn down and re-glued and baked over a longer time period
Attachments
Joined
·
1,020 Posts
As far as the paint adhering to the surfaces, the cloth sleeves(if used) around the wires, the insulating paper, and the wood wedges(if used) that lock the windings in the slots all soak up the paint somewhat to increase the insulation around the wires. And, as you say, "glue" the parts together to keep them from shifting around and chafing.
I've also damaged windings . Sometimes, not always, you can carefully pry back the wires(if they're not burned-up) in the damaged area, insert pieces of the insulating paper to re-insulate the wires, and repaint. Motor shops will give or sell you the small amounts of paper as well as the insulating sleeve material, if needed. They also would be a good source for the insulating paint.
You're right. It is a chore to do this. And, it sounds like you can't wait to get back on the road!
I've also damaged windings . Sometimes, not always, you can carefully pry back the wires(if they're not burned-up) in the damaged area, insert pieces of the insulating paper to re-insulate the wires, and repaint. Motor shops will give or sell you the small amounts of paper as well as the insulating sleeve material, if needed. They also would be a good source for the insulating paint.
You're right. It is a chore to do this. And, it sounds like you can't wait to get back on the road!
Joined
·
7,793 Posts
Hi Dunc,
Sorry for the delay. Lucky you found the same motor for replacement since you were pleased with its performance. From what I see in the photos, it looks good to go except for the brushes. BTW, break in for longer than an hour. Like maybe a week.
For extra insulation and "gluing", use Glyptal 1202. Factory likely used a polyester resin. Retreating an entire armature nothing beats vacuum impregnation.
You might be right about damage to the original armature but the arc flash event could have spread those laminations as well.
Good luck,
major
Sorry for the delay. Lucky you found the same motor for replacement since you were pleased with its performance. From what I see in the photos, it looks good to go except for the brushes. BTW, break in for longer than an hour. Like maybe a week.
For extra insulation and "gluing", use Glyptal 1202. Factory likely used a polyester resin. Retreating an entire armature nothing beats vacuum impregnation.
You might be right about damage to the original armature but the arc flash event could have spread those laminations as well.
Good luck,
major
241 - 260 of 403 Posts
