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Hi
OK for bikes
No use at all for heavy vehicles as torque is roughly proportional to weight and a geared motor will be much lighter than a direct drive motor of the same (high) torque
 

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Some quick notes:
  1. For electrically assisted bicycles and for very light electric motorcycles, hub motors are already widespread. This is not new.
  2. For general automotive applications, any motor mounted with the hub is too heavy for acceptable suspension performance. The automotive term for this placement of the motor is "unsprung".
  3. Even in those applications where it is okay to have the motor moving with the hubs (as unsprung weight), gearing is required to produce enough power from a reasonable size of motor, as Duncan explained. Some large buses and heavy trucks used geared motors mounted on the axles.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi
OK for bikes
No use at all for heavy vehicles as torque is roughly proportional to weight and a geared motor will be much lighter than a direct drive motor of the same (high) torque
If you do not need speed, just torque.
We have the experience of changing the electric locomotive.
Before the changes, he pulled 5 wagon.
After the changes - 11.
They need not only to pull, but also to begin to pull, which is more difficult.
It did not use a wheel-hub motor, but an electric motor using the same technology.

In gearboxes there is a loss of energy, which is not in wheel-hub motor.
But I think we need to count each case separately.

wheel-hub motor is just an example of the application of technology
you can make any electric motor
 

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The YouTube video comments link to a website: http://solargroup.pro/bwk577

That website has a section which translates to "The field of application of Duyunova asynchronous motors"... which shows a display model of a Tesla Model S rear drive unit. We known that Duyunova does not supply motors to Tesla, so this certainly looks like the company is attempting to mislead people. If you haven't built a motor for a car, don't show one; if you have prototyped a replacement motor for a Tesla, list that and show the operational installation.

The website does clearly indicate that the company's motors are of the induction type. That would be different from most bike hub motors, although induction bike motors have been discussed in this forum and elsewhere. Perhaps stating the use of an induction design would be helpful. To be fair, I didn't even listen to the video, just scanned through the images; there isn't enough time in life to listen to the endless supply of pointless online videos!

All of the comparisons in the website are to "BLDC" motors, rather than 3-phase AC PM motors. "BLDC" means different things to different people, but in this case it appears to be PM synchronous motors which are driven by switched rather than sinusoidal power; these have been called electronically commutated DC motors. This style of BLDC motor is common in hub motors for bikes, but only used in very small EVs; I'm not aware of any production electric (or hybrid) cars or trucks using them.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Some quick notes:
  1. For electrically assisted bicycles and for very light electric motorcycles, hub motors are already widespread. This is not new.
1. Now common wheel-hub motor of BLDC technology
There have magnets

Our technology does not have magnets.
These are asynchronous motors (induction).
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
The YouTube video comments link to a website: http://solargroup.pro/bwk577

That website has a section which translates to "The field of application of Duyunova asynchronous motors"... which shows a display model of a Tesla Model S rear drive unit. We known that Duyunova does not supply motors to Tesla, so this certainly looks like the company is attempting to mislead people. If you haven't built a motor for a car, don't show one; if you have prototyped a replacement motor for a Tesla, list that and show the operational installation..
What kind of photo do you mean?
This photo?
http://solargroup.pro/images/sec-usage/info-card_01.jpg

Maybe the photo is shown as an example of how technology can be applied
I will check with tech support
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Some quick notes:
  1. For general automotive applications, any motor mounted with the hub is too heavy for acceptable suspension performance. The automotive term for this placement of the motor is "unsprung".
2. Our engine is lighter
Question of the sprung mass is not very complicated, and it is solvable
Now there are negotiations with Nikolay Fomenko, who is doing a super car Marusya.
Very possibly it will make an electric car with our motor wheels
 

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If you do not need speed, just torque.
We have the experience of changing the electric locomotive.
Before the changes, he pulled 5 wagon.
After the changes - 11.
They need not only to pull, but also to begin to pull, which is more difficult.
Every motor application needs torque and speed to do any work. The tradeoff between torque and speed is just a matter of changing gearing.

The only description on the website that I have found is this:
Donetsk: tests of electric locomotive "Era". After the modification instead of 5 cars "Era" pulls 11 cars.
There is not enough information there to conclude anything. The new motor might simply be bigger.

It did not use a wheel-hub motor, but an electric motor using the same technology.
The same technology is what... an induction motor? Of course, that's the least expensive, longest-established, and most readily available type of motor. The website talks about a patented winding pattern, but it also claims that Duyunov invented the induction motor (which was actually invented about 130 years ago), so what is really being built is not so clear.

In gearboxes there is a loss of energy, which is not in wheel-hub motor.
Yes, but the loss of efficiency of gearing is small compared to the increase in weight, bulk, and cost of the much larger motor needed without gearing.

But I think we need to count each case separately.

wheel-hub motor is just an example of the application of technology
you can make any electric motor
Yes, there are many motor configurations and applications... already proven in production. What is this company offering which is special? Certainly not the induction motor type - that's the oldest form of AC motor, the most common in industrial use, and used by many failed electric vehicle companies (and one that has built a lot of cars and not gone bankrupt yet, but has never made a dollar of profit).

If a specific stator winding design (a combination of star-wired and delta-wired stator windings) is the technology, then meaningful comparisons would be between induction motors of common winding configurations and this new winding design... not between an induction motor and a BLDC motor.



I'm sorry if my tone seems very negative, but I have little tolerance for people claiming to have achieved something new and better, when in fact they are just selling the same thing as is already available, and counting on the ignorance of buyers. Perhaps there is some value to this company's products (if there are any real products, rather than just projects and promises), and it is just not being communicated clearly due to language issues.

In another video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVvzJcFCQQo) for apparently the same inventor and motor, there is a claim that asynchronous (induction) motors are used everywhere industry, except in vehicles. I think Tesla Motors would disagree! It also blames the lack of "power electronics" (inverters) for the lack of asynchronous (induction) motors in vehicles; the several makers of suitable controllers would disagree with that one. These claims and some technical illustration are followed by an incoherent rant.

It would certainly help to replace some awkward translations with more common terminology:
  • motor-wheel -> hub-motor
  • asynchronous motor -> induction motor
  • engine -> motor (when referring to an electric motor)
  • moment -> torque (when referring to motor output)
 

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2. Our engine is lighter
Lighter than what? Lighter that half the shaft which connects a motor to the hub in a conventional configuration? I don't think so!

Question of the sprung mass is not very complicated, and it is solvable
I assume you mean unsprung mass. Generations of vehicle designers would be interested in this mechanical design miracle which has been created as a sideline while building a differently-wound induction motor. :rolleyes:

Now there are negotiations with Nikolay Fomenko, who is doing a super car Marusya.
Very possibly it will make an electric car with our motor wheels
If the possibility progresses beyond the very common state of promised prototype, and becomes and actual car with demonstrated performance, I'm sure many people in this forum would be very interested in hearing about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Maybe I'm translating something wrong

Technology of 3 phase motors is not new - it's true
Our main know-how is a special type of winding.
With this technology, you can change (rewind) a normal engine.
You can also design a new one.
Many patents have been received.
There are official tests.
I will try to attach the test reports of engines with a modified winding.

And there is always a choice
Participate now
Or wait
But to lose some of the profits and competitive advantages
 

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Yes.

Maybe the photo is shown as an example of how technology can be applied
I will check with tech support
Does Ford put a photo of a Rolls-Royce on their website, because the same automotive technology as found in a Ford economy car could be used to build something like a Ferrari? No, but to be fair, a Ford GT is comparable to a Ferrari and there is no Duyunov product comparable to that Tesla drive unit and suspension.
 

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Technology of 3 phase motors is not new - it's true
Our main know-how is a special type of winding.
With this technology, you can change (rewind) a normal engine.
You can also design a new one.
This is the most direct and reasonable statement I've seen - much better than anything on the website or in the videos.

Many patents have been received.
Long ago, patents meant something. Now they mean that you've done some paperwork. Many patents are now issued for technology which is neither new, nor workable... as long as the applicant has appropriately covered any "prior art". Sad, but true.
 

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Example of a test report for a modified engine
https://yadi.sk/i/cWl4Nq2l3QNr9t
Interesting :)
Now that would be worth translating.


Although a translation program might think that motor and engine are equivalent, and both could legitimately be used in this context, the normal usage in English is "motor" for an electric motor, and "engine" only for a fuel-burning engine. Using "engine" makes whatever you are translating immediately look like it was written by someone without experience with electric motors.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Interesting :)
Now that would be worth translating.


Although a translation program might think that motor and engine are equivalent, and both could legitimately be used in this context, the normal usage in English is "motor" for an electric motor, and "engine" only for a fuel-burning engine. Using "engine" makes whatever you are translating immediately look like it was written by someone without experience with electric motors.
I do not know German at all
when I studied the document, I looked at the graphics in the main
this is enough for the beginning

I will remember about "engine and motor".
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yes.


Does Ford put a photo of a Rolls-Royce on their website, because the same automotive technology as found in a Ford economy car could be used to build something like a Ferrari? No, but to be fair, a Ford GT is comparable to a Ferrari and there is no Duyunov product comparable to that Tesla drive unit and suspension.
I sent your question to tech support
Soon we will have a site in English German and French
at alteration will take into account

we do not make the suspension only hub-motor and electric motor
and time will show who is better
 

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Discussion Starter #18
This is the most direct and reasonable statement I've seen - much better than anything on the website or in the videos.


Long ago, patents meant something. Now they mean that you've done some paperwork. Many patents are now issued for technology which is neither new, nor workable... as long as the applicant has appropriately covered any "prior art". Sad, but true.
our engine can be called 6-phase
because we share a triangle and a star


at us in Russia the patent right very rigid
we have useful models and inventions
a patent for utility model is easy to get
patent for invention is very difficult
because we need novelty
The patent office checks the entire international database before issuing a patent
 

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Although a translation program might think that motor and engine are equivalent, and both could legitimately be used in this context, the normal usage in English is "motor" for an electric motor, and "engine" only for a fuel-burning engine. Using "engine" makes whatever you are translating immediately look like it was written by someone without experience with electric motors.
I actually do speak some Russian.

Oddly enough, motor in Russian (which is what the OP seems to actually speak and their website is in) is "motop" which is pronounced motor. So, there really is no translation necessary. Russians call it a motor. So, I'm at a loss for why engine keeps coming up here. I guess translation programs just aren't perfect.

I find this motor of theirs to be interesting but it does seem like it'll have all the same pluses and minuses as any other hub motor. They always seem like such a great idea until you try to use one.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I actually do speak some Russian.

Oddly enough, motor in Russian (which is what the OP seems to actually speak and their website is in) is "motop" which is pronounced motor. So, there really is no translation necessary. Russians call it a motor. So, I'm at a loss for why engine keeps coming up here. I guess translation programs just aren't perfect.

I find this motor of theirs to be interesting but it does seem like it'll have all the same pluses and minuses as any other hub motor. They always seem like such a great idea until you try to use one.
Do you speak Russian?
Can we talk in skype?
 
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