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Discussion Starter #1
My beloved E-Fire was destroyed by an inattentive driver back in July. He changed lanes without seeing me, managing to destroy both sides of the car in the process.

After a long and painful process, I have finally accepted (inadequate) compensation from my insurer. The collision was not my fault, but the local rules here set out not only how insurance claims are to be settled, and values determined, but also how disputes are to be handled. All mean that you either have a) agreed value insurance (which most classic car owners have, but which nobody would offer me for my car because it was an EV conversion) or b) if you have a car which is at all unique, you get ripped off.

For ease of searching, my old build thread is here:


https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95790&highlight=E-Fire

The plan at present is as follows:

1) Start disassembling the dead car- I started that last night. Either way, it has to go. The body bucket is destroyed and the frame is twisted from the collision.

2) Find a willing insurer- no point in re-doing the project if I can't insure it when I'm done.

3) Buy a Spitfire out of the southern US- no more car cancer for me! And no point in converting anything else, as I'll have a whole car's worth of spare parts this way.

4) Start a GoFundMe to try to make up some of the difference between what I lost and what I was compensated for. I think that'd be more fair than suing the poor guy who hit me- he thought he had insurance to cover that. I hope to get enough money at least to have it professionally prepped and painted, since I totally love the topaz colour- high visibility and very distinctive too.

While the differential had been a concern, I don't think it's enough of a concern to merit the enormous amount of work involved in changing to something else. I'll have two spares on hand anyway- that'll probably allow me to out-last my battery pack for sure.

Looking forward to the cleaner, better planned and more orderly build that comes from doing anything a 2nd time! Well, knowing me, it will be less clean and orderly than some folks here manage on their 1st attempt- a perfectionist I am NOT!

As usual, any and all advice and encouragement is welcome!
 

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I'm sure your next build will be pretty awesome. Having all the experience from your first will be a big help. I know there are decisions on my build that I'd do things differently if I had it to do over again.


There's a 77 Spitfire in Las Vegas on Craigs list.. is this the type you are looking for? Or are you looking for something a little more polished to start with?



https://lasvegas.craigslist.org/cto/d/triumph-spitfire/6713014783.html
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That car is worth buying just for that patina! The chrome looks great too!

Definitely not looking for a fully restored car, but it has to be rust free- as much as that's possible in a 43 yr old car. Ideally a somewhat aged restoration which has a blown engine- where the owner has finally given up on that wretched 4-banger they came with and doesn't want to do an engine swap. You know, kind of like yours Baratong! Yours was a real find- and then you had to make it look so damned good on top of all that!

Got to get the insurance situation settled first though. And it's no easier this time than it was last time- even with 3.5 yrs and 16,000 miles of safe driving behind me, and a collision which was a total loss which resulted in no fire or any other hazardous situation.
 

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Hi
I know you love the Spitfire but if I was doing what you are doing I would go a bit wider

Specifically I would try and find a "Hurricane"

Fiberglass mouldings rather than steel - and they look awesome

Otherwise I would try and find a GT6 front - not the whole car I vastly prefer the Spitfire convertible - but the GT6 front with it's long bulge for the 6 cylinder engine looks better

The Hurricane was a kit that used to be used to "rebody" an old Spitfire
 

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Find a willing insurer-
This isn't a problem unique to EVs.

Well, actually, EVs are difficult to insure period. When The Hacksmith and his friend built their electric car before he was famous, (7 years ago or so?) in Ontario, they basically threw it away when they were done because the literally could not get insurance for a homebuilt EV.

But your problem is that you had insurance but it didn't have sufficient valuation. And that's a common problem for anyone who's ever made modifications to a car.

Generally anything you spend money on for a vehicle to change it from stock, decreases the value.

An obvious extreme example would be an $8000 paintjob of your face and birthday on the car. It had cost to you, but it does not add value to the vehicle (reduces value actually, unless, well, I dunno how pretty you are, I shouldn't jump to conclusions).

But things like a custom stereo, or better engine, anything cosmetic... nope.

Sportscars are bad like this too. Even things that are clearly upgrades and not stylistic or personal preference will lower the value of the car. Or, rather, reduce the amount of people who are interested in it, which means you can either wait longer for the right buyer, or drop the price to make an uninterested buyer interested. I see it often recommended when someone can't sell their car even for what it would be worth stock, to actually return it back to stock if they still had the original parts, just to actually get it sold.

EVs might be in that loop. This community isn't a great metric for resale value because, right in the name, it's "DIY" electric cars, so, everyone here wants to build their own, probably not buy one. But I can't off the top of my head recall anyone successfully selling their conversion here. They have to part it out.

Many times people do not know what insurance will value their car for. It's not part of the discussion. It's just "I'm insured", a yes/no thing. For most cars that makes sense because their value is in freefall every month and mile driven. But it's worth trying to have that conversation if you have an expectation of value. For a classic, this should have been more discretely described.

Just for topic's sake, another place people get screwed by insurance (or rather, by not having exactly the insurance they would hope they had), is for musical instruments lost in a house fire. They'll usually get a fraction of original purchase cost (depreciated) even if the item is rare or would ebay for 5x what was paid. Nope, they treat it like a 10 year old fridge.

You can generally insure anything at market price (never above, or you'd have incentive to commit fraud), if you set your policy up right. Some insurance companies have no interest in anything but their pre-existing and defined boxes, so they'll say nope. Others will have underwriters who'll draft a policy if they have experience or expectations. This means you'll have to call more companies, and, generally deal with much higher rates to get what you want. It might be like looking for a job. You hear "no" 19 times before you hear "yes" once.

And sadly, bottom line, your DIY EV will never be worth what you put into it, and thus can't ever be insured for that, because that's just the real-world market valuation.

Regardless, if you move forward, excited to watch your new build. Almost everyone has "If I ever do this again, I learned so much, I would ....", but almost no one ever actually is in the situation to make it happen. So, bit of a unique situation for you. I know I say things like "Well if I ever built 2, I'd get the second one done in 1/4 the time...", but I never do :p
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The chassis is toast and not worth bothering with the effort to put a new body tub on it.

I don't like the look of the Hurricane (to each their own) nor am I enamoured with fibreglass at all.

I'm happy to roll the dice on the compensation value against another collision and lose just like I did last time if I'm hit. But I can't build the thing unless I get liability insurance from somebody. Here in Ontario, there's always the "facility association"- the insurers MUST insure anything that can be legally on the road. When I see that quote I'll know whether it's worth the bother or not.

I think a lot of people here are insured either on a don't ask, don't tell basis (which is very risky) or have been insured contrary to the rules of the insurers, i.e. they were offered a policy in error by luck. The exception is that some jurisdictions have insurance plans which allow it- BC in Canada being one such place. If the guys who insure modified cars (Hagerty here are the ones who come immediately to mind) will not insure electric conversions, alternative options are few. Regrettably Hagerty will not discuss their reasons for declining coverage, other than to say that they don't want the business.
 

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Hi Molten
Damn - that's a pain!

Insurance is not an issue here - we have a thing called ACC

https://www.acc.co.nz/

If you have an accident in NZ they "make you whole" - only applies to people not property but people are the expensive bit
 

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I'm happy to roll the dice on the compensation value against another collision and lose just like I did last time if I'm hit. But I can't build the thing unless I get liability insurance from somebody. Here in Ontario, there's always the "facility association"- the insurers MUST insure anything that can be legally on the road.
I think a lot of people miss this point in insurance discussions: coverage for collision or other losses (comprehensive: fire, theft, etc) is optional and very different from coverage for liability (which is legally required in any sensible jurisdiction). Valuation of the vehicle is an issue for collision and comprehensive, but irrelevant to liability.

I don't know why an electric powertrain would be an issue for insurers, but it seems to be.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I have success in one regard: I have been offered a "Facility Association" policy- the insurer of last resort here in Ontario, intended for such choice "risks" as 16 yr old males with at-fault accidents or driving convictions etc...$4,000 CDN per year for just liability, no collision, no fire and theft.

That amounts to $10/day for nothing but the right to drive that car, to cover me against injury/damage I might cause to others by my own fault.

Is that worth it? I would only drive it half a year per year and hence only be out of pocket $2000/yr for insurance- but that's a hurtful cost. The alternative would be to walk away from my EV parts and try to sell them, getting a pittance for them now.

In comparison, a regular gasoline Spitfire, with or without an engine transplant to something more reliable, would be about $250/yr to insure via Hagerty, the local classic/hotrod insurer underwritten by Aviva- with limited yearly mileage (that likely doesn't matter) and agreed value replacement insurance, flatbed towing on breakdown etc.

Tough decision...but I now am reliably certain that NONE of the insurers offering policies in the province will legitimately, on a full disclosure basis, offer insurance for this or ANY electric conversion. Others who have insured their conversions here in Ontario are either grandfathered under old rules, obtained insurance as a result of an error on the part of the insurer, or driving the conversion on a don't ask/don't tell basis, or are paying the facility association their pound of flesh.
 

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Hi Molten
Does your insurer have to be in your province?

Have you tried calling some of the insurers in other Canadian provinces?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Unfortunately you can't insure a car using an insurer in another province unless you reside there and the car is licensed/registered there. You can't insure your car in BC under their provincial plan and then drive it here long term in Ontario- to have your car plated in Ontario, you must purchase a policy as mandated by the Ontario regulations. That policy stipulates what coverages, at minimum, you must carry. There is no provincial insurance program though- you must buy insurance from a private company.

Because it is a mandated liability policy, i.e. the companies who sell insurance here have a mandated monopoly, you may not be refused insurance for any vehicle which can legally be driven on the roads, nor may you be refused insurance if you have a valid driver's license and a vehicle irrespective of your driving history. All those unwanted vehicles and drivers are insured via this Facility Association, and their rates are mutualized over that terrible class of uninsurable vehicles and drivers. So by converting a car to an EV, I'm lumped in with repeat at fault collisions, people who have DUI convictions etc. and the rates reflect that fact.

Apparently, if you have a brand new right hand drive car and try to insure it in Ontario, similarly the only insurer who will insure you is the Facility Association- according to the broker I talked to, who is very experienced and highly recommended, none of the current insurers will write a policy for such a car. If you have an RHD British sportscar which isn't an EV, Hagerty will likely write you a classic car policy.

So my choice is to either buy a gasoline classic just to have the fun (and danger) of driving one, and toss my EV bits to the wolves for a fraction of what they're worth to me, or do a heck of a lot of work again AND pay a mint for yearly insurance to drive the car I really want to drive- the one I drove quite happily for 3.5 years and 16,000 miles, just re-done so it's better and prettier.

Realizing quickly how much it sucks to live in the province I was born in and have always lived in. Unfortunately, job and family situation make moving not an option either!
 

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Sorry to hear that

As EV's become more common do you think that will change?

I'm thinking if Tesla keep ramping up production then EV's should become more mainstream

Maybe it's worth paying the $2000/year for a couple of years
 

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I have success in one regard: I have been offered a "Facility Association" policy- the insurer of last resort here in Ontario, intended for such choice "risks" as 16 yr old males with at-fault accidents or driving convictions etc...$4,000 CDN per year for just liability, no collision, no fire and theft.
I think it was the same thing when I tried to insure my electric motorbike.

I called around a lot.

One guy told me to make sure that I never mention that I did any of the work myself, always that it was done by a mechanic, otherwise any company would immediately refuse to quote. So that's something else to keep in mind.

The way insurance works is that they like having lots and lots of data. So anything that's small market or where they don't have much or any data, means they don't know what kind of risk they're taking, nor do they know how to charge a reasonable premium. Most will refuse to quote something outside of their wheelhouse, and those that do will, as you discovered, lump you into the most expensive vehicular catchall category. Luckily your driving history represents a larger portion of the risk and that doesn't change.

Because insurance companies are looking for data to make decisions, you want to do your best to find a way to fit into existing data that they're familiar with. You don't want to create a new checkbox, you want to fit into an existing checkbox.

A thing I've heard elsewhere, I forget where, is that an insurance company either quoted sky high, or refused to quote at all, for an electric vehicle conversion. But when they instead said the vehicle had converted to "alternative fuel" they were like "Oh! We have a risk category for that." I.E. Diesel to gas, gas to diesel, gas to propane, etc. It's a minimal, if any risk increase, just a different set of data they'll be collecting from that point forward, if any. So he said the alternative fuel was battery, and, no problem from then out.

It depends on how the underwriters have created their database, but it can just be a matter of asking the right questions to the right people. Sometimes it'll benefit you from pushing to different people, (if you find someone more knowledgeable who wants to make you fit with their company), sometimes it will hurt you (if you find someone that's scared of being accountable if they made a mistake). But if they've already said no, it won't hurt to ask for someone with more experience with different vehicle types to call you back. They'll probably pass you on to someone more senior rather than just some kid checking checkboxes without having any context other than their script screen.

Sometimes the question is only "Have there been any modifications that increase horsepower or performance?", and if you say "no", that's fine, that's all they care about is if you put in a bigger engine or something that now makes you more risky (their risk tables will have a correlation between higher horsepower and higher accident rates, and they need to charge you the appropriate difference). But if your modifications don't increase horsepower? If you put in a smaller engine? If you put in a 40hp lawn tractor engine? They wouldn't care. If you push and spook them that you're in some category that they don't have a sheet for, you're going to be told no. If you say "I have a lawn tractor motor installed instead", they will say that they don't have a risk category for repurposed agricultural engines and you'll be rejected or put into a high risk "I dunno what this is" category. Even if the engine is just a generic engine, if you're overly specific, you'll be outside a checkbox. So find a way within the rules to be inside a checkbox.

Another thing you can do to the bigger companies is ask to spend some time with their underwriters to draft a new policy category. Tell them this is something that's been on the rise for 20 years and that it's difficult to get insurance despite not being a higher risk. That people are looking for insurance company recommendations. They may be interested. There's a non-profit I volunteered at (community workshop) did that to find an affordable premium for shop insurance. "Oh you have welders, you're a welding shop? $X. Oh you have woodworking equipment, you're a woodworking shop? $X + $Y." Etc. So they took some time to understand the context, set some basic guidelines on what they wanted to see for us to be insurable at a comfortable rate (mandetory general safety training for all newcomers, clearly marked safety equipment, certain machines restricted to adults, etc).

Smaller companies might not have underwriters, they may contract it out or just pay for a general insurance dataset from a bigger insurance company and only sell policies, not do any brainwork.

Is that worth it?
How much do you spend on gas?

Tough decision...but I now am reliably certain that NONE of the insurers offering policies in the province will legitimately, on a full disclosure basis, offer insurance for this or ANY electric conversion. Others who have insured their conversions here in Ontario are either grandfathered under old rules, obtained insurance as a result of an error on the part of the insurer, or driving the conversion on a don't ask/don't tell basis, or are paying the facility association their pound of flesh.
Another thing to squeak by, insure it as a regular gas vehicle, let that sit for 6 months. Then tell them you've changed it to an alternative fuel, with no performance increases, frame or safety modifications. You can sort of grandfather yourself in because they won't want to lose your business, which is different than gaining your business in the first place. It's a different type of conversation and a different kind of thing to ignore. In the paperwork it might appear same as it always has, as "X", but now with a comment Y in the footnotes, versus "We don't insure for Y" if you ask upfront.

Let us know if you find anything else.
 

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Really good advice from Matt

Sometimes it depends on how you describe it

When I had my souped up mini back in the 80's a Cooper S was group 6 insurance (the top)

But a 1275GT was only group 3

I described exactly what I had done to my engine - as modifications to a 1275GT for increased efficiency and economy

I gave them the part numbers - the cam was a 649 cam - I did NOT call it a "Full Race"

They accepted all of that and left me in group 3 - despite having 40% more power than a Cooper S

Everything I said was accurate - but said the correct way

So you have an alternative fuel vehicle - push the economy and the "green" and the safety
Mention the "lower power" as an acceptable loss for the economy
 

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Hi Molten
Does your insurer have to be in your province?
Yes, as Moltenmetal described.

For a little more background... insurance is provincially regulated, so the insurer must be willing to offer insurance in that province, willing to follow that province's rules, and approved by that province. Most companies operate in most provinces that don't have government insurance, but their terms and rates are suited to each individual province.

I haven't even checked with insurance companies on what can be covered here in Alberta, but a previous discussion (and threads linked to it) suggests that at least liability might be straightforward for the E-fire if it were here. One of the linked discussions mentions Intact Insurance - they seem to like unusual categories (they even provided the special commercial insurance that non-licensed taxi operations such as Uber need here), so if anyone has a category that will work it might be them.

As EV's become more common do you think that will change?
Ontario is one of only three provinces (of the ten in Canada) which has subsidized the purchase of EVs, and so it already has far more (factory-built production) EVs (as a fraction of vehicles on the road) than the non-subsidizing provinces. That will likely have come to a screeching halt now, since the current provincial government cancelled the subsidy program effective last month, so the market penetration of EVs will go down again. Some rich people will still by Teslas, Jaguars, Audis, and whatever, but almost no one is paying a $10,000 premium for a battery instead of a gas tank on a moderately priced vehicle.

Even if EVs were common, that wouldn't necessarily ensure that conversions would be covered. An insurance company can have some confidence that a mechanic's inspection of a modified conventional vehicle ensures that it is built reasonably, but I think we're a long way from having similar confidence in a conversion to electric. Unmodified production vehicles are handled by federal regulations, so insurance companies can assume that they suitably designed and constructed.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
There's been a lot of well-meaning advice given and I appreciate it- but I have to say that some people here are giving either old or inapplicable or incorrect advice on this topic. It's my hope that this thread will nail it down for future converters in Ontario so they know the straight goods. Of course I welcome advice from anyone who actually works for an insurer who WILL offer insurance in Ontario for an EV conversion- that would be wonderful!

I followed all the advice before. Don't say "modified", say "alternative fuel" etc. The rules vary by jurisdiction, so advice that works in one locale doesn't work in another. I've heard it all before- all kinds of people saying try this company and that company. I've tried them all- I've even called the same brokers that some suggested via PMs etc. I even called the Insurance Bureau of Canada. The story I'm getting is consistent.

Insuring an OEM EV here is no problem by the way. None at all.

Here in Ontario, the rules are as follows: all but a few insurers- the very few who specialize in special cars such as classics and hotrods- are actually required by law to NOT offer insurance to anyone with a vehicle which has been "modified from OEM specifications". If they DO offer a policy knowingly for a modified car, they are in violation of the terms under which they offer insurance in the province. They are subject to serious consequences from their regulatory body.

I always say to them that the suspension, steering, weight and weight distribution, braking etc. are all factory standard, repaired and unchanged, and that the only thing that has changed is the engine, that the car is legally on the road by virtue of fully passing an Ontario safety inspection, and that without that 80 pounds of gasoline with a flip top lid, the car is actually safer than it was before by far- none of that is a word of a lie. They say, "Sorry, it doesn't matter- we can't insure you for a vehicle which has been modified. Period. Sorry- doesn't matter how it was modified, or who did the work, or who certifies that it has been done properly". And yes, they in fact understand the rules properly and are applying them correctly.

What does "modified" mean? Clearly it means more than changing tires or rims or trim- but it certainly does cover replacing an ICE with an EV drivetrain. There's no getting around that fact, irrespective of how you word-smith it.

Some insurance brokers violate the rules of their insurers by offering policies to people who do not fully meet the criteria those policies are based on. Some insurers do grant brokers or agents some discretion- but most of the considerable discretion that once existed is now gone in favour of checklists and computer pull-down menus. While some insurers offer discounts of one kind or another etc., it's all for standard cars. Discretion is more or less out of the equation now- the actuaries have taken over the asylum.

Are all the modders and tuners out there driving cars that are improperly insured? No- but guaranteed, a lot of them are. There's a lot of don't ask/don't tell going on out there, and if the mods are a) small and b) not in any way involved in what causes a crash, then things are probably OK unless there's a fatality or a big lawsuit. But it's rather tough to hide the fact that your car is now an EV even if you were to try. And most insurers ask you to fill out a form which asks if the car has been modified at some point- some of them need that form filled out every time you renew.

Like I said- the "special insurer" of choice here is Hagerty/Lant/Silver Wheels (all under-written here in Canada by Aviva apparently). They will insure a Spitfire- even a modified one with a gasoline engine, as long as it is less than 450 hp and meets an Ontario safety inspection. They WILL NOT insure any electric conversion. Period. And they will not explain why not- and they don't need to explain. I know this because I have asked them- both through a broker AND directly.

Can you trick or sweet-talk an insurer into offering you a policy? Yes- that's how I was insured originally. Sales staff from a major insurer offered me a quote on a full disclosure basis because they used an Indian call centre to do all those sales screening calls. Another guy in Toronto told me to call this particular company, hinting "when they pick up the phone, you'll know why I said to call them"- his conversion was apparently insured with them too. When I tried to activate the policy, within the validity period of a revised version of the quote, the call centre staff fired it "upstairs" to underwriting, who replied HELL NO! It was only by sending them a letter threatening legal action if they refused to honour their quote, and by getting their ombudsman involved, that I was written a policy at all- after six weeks of delay. That's not ideal- being insured by somebody who is looking for any trick by which they can terminate your policy- but I managed to maintain it for 3.5 yrs and they paid out (eventually) when the other guy nerfed me, so fortunately that's all behind me now. Here, you are paid by your insurer even if the other guy is at fault which was the case.

In summary- it is possible to insure an electric conversion in Ontario. After extensive searching, there is only one insurer who can legitimately offer you a policy- the Facility Association. And the policy is crushingly expensive. Unless I find a way to turn the project into some kind of beneficial PR stunt for one of the insurers (and yes, I'm going to try that, and every other trick in the book too short of lying or misleading which I will NEVER do because a) I'm an honest guy and b) it would invalidate the policy and its coverage anyway), my options are to give up or to pay the Facility Association their several pounds of flesh.

As to the argument of putting fuel savings up against the extra insurance cost- a trip to work costs me $3.50 in gas in the Prius C, versus $1.90 in electricity all in including taxes etc., averaging between my on-peak charge at work and off-peak charge at night at home. I own the Prius and need it in winter and for longer trips anyway so can't really take it off the road- and its insurance cost is small so wouldn't save me much anyway. So it'd be $3.20 per day in gas savings versus $10/day in insurance- on days I drive to work. Any day when it thunderstorms and I take the Prius or the train, it'd be $10 for nothing. Having been nuked by a truck and lucky to not have been killed in the offing, I think I won't be driving it as often to work and back as I did before- I just won't have the nerve.

The option of converting a larger car just for the safety so I can drive it more often isn't all that enticing- the whole point of the E-Fire was the combination of the sexy classic lines (to each their own, but I think Michellotti got it pretty close to right on the 1500) and the silent but deadly performance (exaggerating a bit- it's not a model S or even the fun you'd get with a big DC motor like Baratong's, but compared to the original 4-banger it was a delight to drive!)

So- barring a miracle, a mistake on someone else's part etc., I have to decide just how much the love of a car is worth to me. An extra $1400/yr is what it amounts to- maybe $1000 if I count the fuel savings. If I can keep it on the road for another 10 yrs, that extra cost is the equivalent of what- a modestly more expensive vehicle? Not so bad I guess- another financial bullet I take for the environment I guess- far cheaper than buying a Tesla. But I think a GoFundMe is in my future for sure if I decide to do this project again.

My face is already hurting because I no longer have the EV grin- I've got the "no-EV frown" on hard every time I have to refuel my Prius now. And as I tear apart the dead car, which has to happen regardless, the thought of all that work on the part of Jacob and myself going down the toilet is almost enough to make a grown man cry. The insurance situation is just adding salt to a wound.
 

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I'm sorry to hear about the conclusion regarding insurance.

It makes sense to build another E-Fire, especially since you already have the parts and know how to do it. If street use is not practical (for now, anyway), you could use it off-highway. Casual motorsports (solo or autoslalom events) and race track recreational lapping (not races) are the easiest. No street licensing or insurance would be required, although a trailer and tow vehicle (larger than the Prius C) would be... and likely a roll bar for safety.
 
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