[Paddy Enfield Dock]

Hi,
I run a dry dock on the River Lea just North of London. We do repairs, maintenance and restorations of English and Dutch canal boats. I am currently looking at the possibility of creating an electric propulsion system and am hoping to tap into the knowledge that you electric car guys have amassed.
The requirements for a canal boat are relatively simple, the motor must be able to turn a prop shaft in two directions, and that’s about it, no vacuum pumps, power steering etc (although I see many batteries and motors require cooling, this is usually done with a belt drive pump going through a skin tank, a thin box welded below the waterline which in practical terms works like a radiator, so I would need some electric water pump).
A Nissan Leaf or Tesla motor should be easily powerful enough for this application, although we would need a reduction box as the props want a max rpm of around 1500. Boats on Inland waterways have a 4 knots speed limit, but need to be able to stop a 20tonne boat in reverse, so torque is key.
Having looked at the 2, A leaf motor looks a lot easier to work with as it has only one output centred on the unit, as opposed to the dual shat on the Teslas that are to the side when mounted in line with the prop shaft (which s it even possible to use only one output and ignore the other?).
Having browsed eBay, it seems the model 3 battery packs are the best value and most available. I see that for car conversions the size is an issue, however in our situation this is not a problem. If possible I would like to use the entire packs without breaking them open, if possible, perhaps using 2 packs.
So, what I am trying to discover is what controllers I can use with the leaf motor and inverter?
How do I connect with/replace the BMS, and read any temp data etc on a model 3 battery pack?
Also what are the million things I haven’t yet thought about?
Cheers, Paddy

 

[kennybobby]

Take a look over on the openinverter .org forum for some diy controllers that you can build yourself.

there is a thread or two on this site of some boat builders using the leaf with a locking stub shaft for the differential; i think there is also a picture of a live-aboard canal boat conversion.

Would your boat mainly be used as a tug for bringing other boats into your dock, or what is the application?

 

[remy_martian]

He builds/rebuilds boats (plural) - these would be conversions (plural). In that context, an intact M3 pack makes sense productionwise.

I'd consider a belt/chain drive between Leaf motor and prop shaft, maybe a 2:1, or 3:1 tops, and splitting the Tesla pack to half voltage.

That should keep it simple, "cheap", and give you around 30-40hp at the prop with a ~2 hour runtime at that full power.

Your other option is to use a Tesla drive unit, there's a 4:1 ish gearset the Land Rover conversion guys use, and direct drive the prop shaft off the axle port with a locked diff (spool).

If you want new, Cascadia Motion has a nice longitudinal drive setup - see @D&VsEVJeep's build thread for that one.

 

[Paddy Enfield Dock]

Take a look over on the openinverter .org forum for some diy controllers that you can build yourself.

there is a thread or two on this site of some boat builders using the leaf with a locking stub shaft for the differential; i think there is also a picture of a live-aboard canal boat conversion.

Would your boat mainly be used as a tug for bringing other boats into your dock, or what is the application?

I’m interested in doing one as an experiment anticipating quite a demand in the near future for conversions and new builds.that are electric/solar powered. They have recently really tightened up what vehicles can be driven in London (only euro 6 diesels) and by 2030 all production of new ICE cars will cease. Meanwhile, all the canal boats run off 30 yr old Smokey diesels. At some point the government will put a stop to this and the industry is entirely unprepared.
I have seen a few electric canal boats, we had one recently at the dock, but I was really underwhelmed by it. The motors (2 of them driven by belts attached to a pulley on the prop) were pancake style motors and looked more like something you might put on a high powered ebike, powered by a huge stack of lead acid batteries that had leaked all over the base plate and corroded it to bits. We were surprised that the motors could handle the load, the owner told us that they had had 2 replaced in the 6 months they’d owned the boat. It had cost them around £200k!! We decided we should look into doing a better job and maybe designing a kit which other engineers could retrofit. Using leaf or Tesla parts seems like the obvious way to go.

 

[Duncan]

Hi - motors are not the problem - for your tasks the motor from a forklift would be ideal
Forklifts went to AC motors about 10 years ago - for a car these are NOT as useful as the old DC motors - for your boats they are ideal - about 48 volts and 1500 rpm
You would want the motor and controller from the forklift
Car motors are all much higher rpm - not what you need
These will be about 15 hp - but that is instant and usable - probably MORE than the old diesels actually produce

The limiting factor is the battery
How much fuel do you burn in a day?
A rough comparison would be about 10 kg of battery (1 kWh) for every liter used

So how much fuel would you consider as "ample" - 50 liters would be about 1 Tesla battery

 

[Paddy Enfield Dock]

He builds/rebuilds boats (plural) - these would be conversions (plural). In that context, an intact M3 pack makes sense productionwise.

I'd consider a belt/chain drive between Leaf motor and prop shaft, maybe a 2:1, or 3:1 tops, and splitting the Tesla pack to half voltage.

That should keep it simple, "cheap", and give you around 30-40hp at the prop with a ~2 hour runtime at that full power.

Your other option is to use a Tesla drive unit, there's a 4:1 ish gearset the Land Rover conversion guys use, and direct drive the prop shaft off the axle port with a locked diff (spool).

If you want new, Cascadia Motion has a nice longitudinal drive setup - see @D&VsEVJeep's build thread for that one. I’m

Tbh for UK canal use you are hardly ever anywhere near full power. The power is needed for stopping and manoeuvring, but most of the time the engine is pretty much at tick over speed (4mph is the limit, and even that is considered bad form near moored boats, which in and around London is everywhere). We really need to be able to get a good few hours cruising for it to be a viable option.
I’ve seen a belt drive reduction system (see my post above), but I did not like it. Ideally you want some mass at the end of the shaft as the force pushes onto it. From what I can see from pictures (I’ve never seen one in the flesh, we could machine up parts to run a leaf motor directly off the prop shaft through a marine flexible coupling. With the M3 it would be kinda weird as the motor wouldn’t be centred, unless we could remove the entire diff/gearbox section and make an adapter paste to a marine reduction box.
The physical side of it, making mounts, adapters etc is something we can do, the thing where we are like children is the electronics and monitoring side of the conversions. We have an experienced marine electrical engineer at the who often does work for us at the dock, but when I spoke to him, he was even more clueless than me (although we are all keen to learn).

 

[Paddy Enfield Dock]

Hi - motors are not the problem - for your tasks the motor from a forklift would be ideal
Forklifts went to AC motors about 10 years ago - for a car these are NOT as useful as the old DC motors - for your boats they are ideal - about 48 volts and 1500 rpm
You would want the motor and controller from the forklift
Car motors are all much higher rpm - not what you need
These will be about 15 hp - but that is instant and usable - probably MORE than the old diesels actually produce

The limiting factor is the battery
How much fuel do you burn in a day?
A rough comparison would be about 10 kg of battery (1 kWh) for every liter used

So how much fuel would you consider as "ample" - 50 liters would be about 1 Tesla battery

I was figuring that we would need a hefty reduction box on a car motor, but your suggestion of a forklift motor is very interesting, especially for smaller narrow boats (up to 50ftx7ft) Often they use Lister SR2s and SR3s, which are only about 15hp, although with bags of torque, they are slightly underpowered, but nevertheless quite useable. The larger wide beams would probably need a little more oomph.
50 litres of diesel gets you a fair range, especially with the smaller listers, If a Tesla pack could match that it certainly would make it feasible for most liveaboards, who tend to only move once a fortnight (which they are required to do by the river/canal authorities)
of course there is currently zero charging infrastructure, maybe some boatyards like us can give people a 16amp lead for the night (which is how I came across the only electric canal boat I’ve seen in the flesh. Luckily there is a lot of roof space for solar, so in the summer months it should be quite feasible to charge a pack over a fortnight. In the winter, not so much

 

[Duncan]

I was figuring that we would need a hefty reduction box on a car motor, but your suggestion of a forklift motor is very interesting, especially for smaller narrow boats (up to 50ftx7ft) Often they use Lister SR2s and SR3s, which are only about 15hp, although with bags of torque, they are slightly underpowered, but nevertheless quite useable. The larger wide beams would probably need a little more oomph.
50 litres of diesel gets you a fair range, especially with the smaller listers, If a Tesla pack could match that it certainly would make it feasible for most liveaboards, who tend to only move once a fortnight (which they are required to do by the river/canal authorities)
of course there is currently zero charging infrastructure, maybe some boatyards like us can give people a 16amp lead for the night (which is how I came across the only electric canal boat I’ve seen in the flesh. Luckily there is a lot of roof space for solar, so in the summer months it should be quite feasible to charge a pack over a fortnight. In the winter, not so much

If you think the Lister has "bags of torque" a forklift motor will surprise you! - I'm using one of the previous generation of motors - a DC series motor - and I easily blow away the supercharged V8's on the drag strip

I suggest that you find out who repairs electric forklifts near you and pay a visit with some cash (or beer)
you want to speak to the people who do the repairs - not the office types
My first motor cost $100 - the present one was $150
The motors are almost indestructible - the forklifts get scrapped off with still working motors
You should try and get a "Drive motor" (and its controller) - an 11 inch diameter motor would be about 100 kg - a 9 inch motor would probably do - a 13 inch motor would be overkill

You will need to reconfigure the battery to the same voltage as the controller - used to be 48 volts - may be 80 volts these days

An older series DC motor would also work well but the more modern motor will not have brushes

The main battery - from an EV - will have a cooling system - its not going to be needed to cool the batteries but its useful to flow some "coolant" just to ensure all of the cells are at the same temperature

 

[Paddy Enfield Dock]

QUOTE="Duncan, post: 1097535, member: 4549"]
If you think the Lister has "bags of torque" a forklift motor will surprise you! - I'm using one of the previous generation of motors - a DC series motor - and I easily blow away the supercharged V8's on the drag strip

I suggest that you find out who repairs electric forklifts near you and pay a visit with some cash (or beer)
you want to speak to the people who do the repairs - not the office types
My first motor cost $100 - the present one was $150
The motors are almost indestructible - the forklifts get scrapped off with still working motors
You should try and get a "Drive motor" (and its controller) - an 11 inch diameter motor would be about 100 kg - a 9 inch motor would probably do - a 13 inch motor would be overkill

You will need to reconfigure the battery to the same voltage as the controller - used to be 48 volts - may be 80 volts these days

An older series DC motor would also work well but the more modern motor will not have brushes

The main battery - from an EV - will have a cooling system - its not going to be needed to cool the batteries but its useful to flow some "coolant" just to ensure all of the cells are at the same temperature
[/QUOTE
Actually I’m quite into the idea, I’ve already been googling forklift repair places near me, I will ring them tomorrow. I actually have a 45 foot narrow boat with the BMC 1.8 removed for reconditioning atm, it’s mine not a customers so I’m free to mess about with it. I might see if I can source a forklift motor and controller (do I need a separate inverter for an AC motor) and temporarily rig it to some some deep cycle lead acid batteries (which I already have) and make a mounting bracket to the main engine bearers and an adapter to connect to the prop shaft to the motor. That’s a really good first project that shouldn’t take too much time and won’t cost me more than the price of the motor parts and a couple of days. If I like the result I could look into battery packs.[/QUOTE]

 

[Paddy Enfield Dock]

If you think the Lister has "bags of torque" a forklift motor will surprise you! - I'm using one of the previous generation of motors - a DC series motor - and I easily blow away the supercharged V8's on the drag strip

I suggest that you find out who repairs electric forklifts near you and pay a visit with some cash (or beer)
you want to speak to the people who do the repairs - not the office types
My first motor cost $100 - the present one was $150
The motors are almost indestructible - the forklifts get scrapped off with still working motors
You should try and get a "Drive motor" (and its controller) - an 11 inch diameter motor would be about 100 kg - a 9 inch motor would probably do - a 13 inch motor would be overkill

You will need to reconfigure the battery to the same voltage as the controller - used to be 48 volts - may be 80 volts these days

An older series DC motor would also work well but the more modern motor will not have brushes

The main battery - from an EV - will have a cooling system - its not going to be needed to cool the batteries but its useful to flow some "coolant" just to ensure all of the cells are at the same temperature

QUOTE="Duncan, post: 1097535, member: 4549"]
If you think the Lister has "bags of torque" a forklift motor will surprise you! - I'm using one of the previous generation of motors - a DC series motor - and I easily blow away the supercharged V8's on the drag strip

I suggest that you find out who repairs electric forklifts near you and pay a visit with some cash (or beer)
you want to speak to the people who do the repairs - not the office types
My first motor cost $100 - the present one was $150
The motors are almost indestructible - the forklifts get scrapped off with still working motors
You should try and get a "Drive motor" (and its controller) - an 11 inch diameter motor would be about 100 kg - a 9 inch motor would probably do - a 13 inch motor would be overkill

You will need to reconfigure the battery to the same voltage as the controller - used to be 48 volts - may be 80 volts these days

An older series DC motor would also work well but the more modern motor will not have brushes

The main battery - from an EV - will have a cooling system - its not going to be needed to cool the batteries but its useful to flow some "coolant" just to ensure all of the cells are at the same temperature
[/QUOTE
Actually I’m quite into the idea, I’ve already been googling forklift repair places near me, I will ring them tomorrow. I actually have a 45 foot narrow boat with the BMC 1.8 removed for reconditioning atm, it’s mine not a customers so I’m free to mess about with it. I might see if I can source a forklift motor and controller (do I need a separate inverter for an AC motor) and temporarily rig it to some some deep cycle lead acid batteries (which I already have) and make a mounting bracket to the main engine bearers and an adapter to connect to the prop shaft to the motor. That’s a really good first project that shouldn’t take too much time and won’t cost me more than the price of the motor parts and a couple of days. If I like the result I could look into battery packs

 

[Duncan]

QUOTE="Duncan, post: 1097535, member: 4549"]
If you think the Lister has "bags of torque" a forklift motor will surprise you! - I'm using one of the previous generation of motors - a DC series motor - and I easily blow away the supercharged V8's on the drag strip

I suggest that you find out who repairs electric forklifts near you and pay a visit with some cash (or beer)
you want to speak to the people who do the repairs - not the office types
My first motor cost $100 - the present one was $150
The motors are almost indestructible - the forklifts get scrapped off with still working motors
You should try and get a "Drive motor" (and its controller) - an 11 inch diameter motor would be about 100 kg - a 9 inch motor would probably do - a 13 inch motor would be overkill

You will need to reconfigure the battery to the same voltage as the controller - used to be 48 volts - may be 80 volts these days

An older series DC motor would also work well but the more modern motor will not have brushes

The main battery - from an EV - will have a cooling system - its not going to be needed to cool the batteries but its useful to flow some "coolant" just to ensure all of the cells are at the same temperature
[/QUOTE
Actually I’m quite into the idea, I’ve already been googling forklift repair places near me, I will ring them tomorrow. I actually have a 45 foot narrow boat with the BMC 1.8 removed for reconditioning atm, it’s mine not a customers so I’m free to mess about with it. I might see if I can source a forklift motor and controller (do I need a separate inverter for an AC motor) and temporarily rig it to some some deep cycle lead acid batteries (which I already have) and make a mounting bracket to the main engine bearers and an adapter to connect to the prop shaft to the motor. That’s a really good first project that shouldn’t take too much time and won’t cost me more than the price of the motor parts and a couple of days. If I like the result I could look into battery packs

The "controller" includes the "inverter"
Some of the motors will have a "hand brake" on the other end of the motor - this may be able to be dismantled and to provide a part that goes onto the splines on the motor shaft and can easily mount onto the prop shaft - I use this to mount onto a short prop shaft that goes on to my diff

 

[428RC]

are you limiting your boat to day trips? if not it seems to me the bigger question is where will you get charging power? Doesn't seem like there are a lot of places on the canals to plug in unless you pay for a slip. So your limit would be how much wind and solar you can count on to charge the batteries, not the batteries or the motor other than the norm of getting the most efficient drive solution. Solar produces surprisingly little power and needs clear days.