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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

I know some people don't consider fuel cell powered cars as true
"electric cars", but I thought this was an interesting read anyway.

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2007/07/31/tech-buckeye-bullet.html

For John's sake I'll refrain from comparing this vehicle to White Zombie! ;}

Colin
 

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Discussion Starter #2
In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:11:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
______________________________________________________________________________
________

For John's sake I'll refrain from comparing this vehicle to White Zombie! ;}

Colin

______________________________________________________________________________
________

Why? John's car has an electric motor/motors four wheels and a seat
shouldn't they be in the same class?





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Discussion Starter #3
somewhat interesting but it isn't really an electric vehicle. hybrid
electric maybe
I wonder if the rules are that sloppy as to allow that as an electric
vehicle. I sort of hope not

maybe hook up with A123 instead

Dan

Colin Frame wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I know some people don't consider fuel cell powered cars as true
> "electric cars", but I thought this was an interesting read anyway.
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2007/07/31/tech-buckeye-bullet.html
>
> For John's sake I'll refrain from comparing this vehicle to White
> Zombie! ;}
>
> Colin
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas engine
of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY and the primary
drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is hydrogen
doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it aboard instead
of charging it externally.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 14:25
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)

somewhat interesting but it isn't really an electric vehicle. hybrid
electric maybe I wonder if the rules are that sloppy as to allow that as
an electric vehicle. I sort of hope not

maybe hook up with A123 instead

Dan

Colin Frame wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I know some people don't consider fuel cell powered cars as true
> "electric cars", but I thought this was an interesting read anyway.
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2007/07/31/tech-buckeye-bullet.html
>
> For John's sake I'll refrain from comparing this vehicle to White
> Zombie! ;}
>
> Colin
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So, was someone saying that this is really a hybrid vehicle instead of an electric? I think that using a fuel cell makes it more of a... well... fuel cell vehicle doesn't it? Technicalities... :p

Brian


---- Timothy Balcer <[email protected]> wrote:

=============
Woot. I can enter an Electric Quadracycle into an NHRA race! Look out John!!!

;-)


--T

PS: Hey now... Electric Quadracycle.....

On 7/31/07, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:11:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> [email protected] writes:
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> ________
>
> For John's sake I'll refrain from comparing this vehicle to White Zombie! ;}
>
> Colin
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> ________
>
> Why? John's car has an electric motor/motors four wheels and a seat
> shouldn't they be in the same class?
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #7
In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:50:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
________________________________________________________________

Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas engine
of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY and the primary
drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is hydrogen
doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it aboard instead
of charging it externally.

______________________________________________________________

What if the car had a hydrogen fueled piston engine driving an AC generator
hooked to an AC motor, what would it be then???




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Discussion Starter #8
Brian Jackson wrote:

> So, was someone saying that this is really a hybrid vehicle
> instead of an electric? I think that using a fuel cell makes
> it more of a... well... fuel cell vehicle doesn't it?
> Technicalities... :p

I suppose technically there are no electric vehicles since electricity
isn't a fuel but a form of energy. I suppose my vehicle is really
gravity-powered since I store electricity generated by hydro-electric
generators in its batteries, while many other people's vehicles might be
coal or natural gas powered. Ultimately even these are solar-powered
(along with those using electricy generated by wind or photovoltaics)
since the hydrocarbon fuel is simply stored solar energy from a very
long time ago. ;^>

The fuel cell Buckeye Bullet certainly isn't a
_battery_electric_vehicle_, which is what this list is largely intended
to focus on, but it is certainly as much an electric vehicle as any
other discussed on this list.

Cheers,

Roger.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas engine
> of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY and the primary
> drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is hydrogen
> doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it aboard instead
> of charging it externally.
>
The hydrogen fuel voids its status as electric in my book. I would say
that a strict EV must be powered by an electrical storage such as
battery or capacitor. if you allow generators such as fuel cells you
also allow types like the prius which is a gas car with an electric
clutch. this is a fuel cell car. hydrogen-electric if you will. like
diesel-electric trains.
another way to define an EV might be to require refueling by an
electrical connection. again this one would fail that.

when we are debating victory criteria with ICE people then everything is
an electric car of course : ) but this is a hydrogen car. not an EV.
I would be surprised if the record people will allow it as a pure EV.
not that batteries couldn't beat it anyway

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #10
[email protected] wrote:

> What if the car had a hydrogen fueled piston engine driving
> an AC generator hooked to an AC motor, what would it be then???

Electric, or hydrogen-powered, if you prefer to think of your EV as
coal-powered.

Should we strip all NEDRA records from any vehicle whose batteries were
charged by an ICE genset at the track for the record run(s), whether the
genset was onboard or off-board? Does a BEV cease to be an "electric
vehicle" if an onboard genset is used?

Some suggest that a hybrid is a vehicle with multiple fuel sources (i.e.
a plug-in hybrid that uses both a hydrocarbon fuel and energy from the
grid) for propulsion, however, this definition is flawed since the
electricity from the grid is often generated through combustion of a
hydrocarbon fuel. I think that if the sole means of tractive effort is
an electric motor(s), then it is probably fair to call the vehicle
'electric', but this conflicts with the convention of referring to such
vehicles as diesel-electric locomotives as 'series hybrids' (even though
they are fueled strictly by diesel and all tractive effort is provided
by electric motor(s)).

The debate over classification of various permutations of electric-drive
vehicles verges on religious, so there is little point in us going
there. This list is devoted to discussion of battery electric vehicles,
so I believe further discussion of this particular vehicle is probably
OT since even if we can't agree what it is, we can certainly agree that
it isn't a BEV unless it has batteries onboard for energy storage (which
wasn't made clear in the article as far as I noticed).

Cheers,

Roger.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Here comes again - a fresh bite for our troll.

How do you thin electricity in your grid is made?
If it's made in power plant where coal is burn it means "you" EV car has also
combustion engine ?

Stop making comments like that.

EOT (4me)

On Tuesday 31 July 2007 21:37:32 Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> > Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas engine
> > of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY and the primary
> > drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is hydrogen
> > doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it aboard instead
> > of charging it externally.
>
> The hydrogen fuel voids its status as electric in my book. I would say
> that a strict EV must be powered by an electrical storage such as
> battery or capacitor. if you allow generators such as fuel cells you
> also allow types like the prius which is a gas car with an electric
> clutch. this is a fuel cell car. hydrogen-electric if you will. like
> diesel-electric trains.
> another way to define an EV might be to require refueling by an
> electrical connection. again this one would fail that.
>
> when we are debating victory criteria with ICE people then everything is
> an electric car of course : ) but this is a hydrogen car. not an EV.
> I would be surprised if the record people will allow it as a pure EV.
> not that batteries couldn't beat it anyway
>
> Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hydrogen is not a fuel. It IS an energy carrier, or storage medium much as a battery or capacitor.. If the electrons from the storage medium power an electric motor, then technically it IS an EV.

Maybe we could rename our group the BEVDL, or Battery Electric Vehicle Discussion List and limit our arguments to what batteries get the best performance, or how to maintain them better. It seems you are now the one with the closed mind, and blindly following the mantra of if its not batteries its not electric, yada yada yada. I'm not one to favour the hydrogen hype because it is such an inefficient form of energy storage. However to stay technically correct, but not argue for that side, I would say the Fuel Cell powered vehicle are EV's if they power electric motors.



----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:39 am
Subject: Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
To: [email protected]

> Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> > Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas
> engine> of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY
> and the primary
> > drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is
> hydrogen> doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it
> aboard instead
> > of charging it externally.
> >
> The hydrogen fuel voids its status as electric in my book. I would
> say
> that a strict EV must be powered by an electrical storage such as
> battery or capacitor. if you allow generators such as fuel cells
> you
> also allow types like the prius which is a gas car with an electric
> clutch. this is a fuel cell car. hydrogen-electric if you will.
> like
> diesel-electric trains.
> another way to define an EV might be to require refueling by an
> electrical connection. again this one would fail that.
>
> when we are debating victory criteria with ICE people then
> everything is
> an electric car of course : ) but this is a hydrogen car. not an EV.
> I would be surprised if the record people will allow it as a pure
> EV.
> not that batteries couldn't beat it anyway
>
> Dan
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #15
A fuel cell is NOT an engine, it is merely a type of battery; the only
difference is that it generates it's own power rather than just storing it.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)


> In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:50:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> [email protected] writes:
> ________________________________________________________________
>
> Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas engine
> of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY and the primary
> drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is hydrogen
> doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it aboard instead
> of charging it externally.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> What if the car had a hydrogen fueled piston engine driving an AC
> generator
> hooked to an AC motor, what would it be then???
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
> at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #16
it's not an engine but it is a generator of electricity from hydrogen
fuel. if it was combined with a hydrogen generator in a closed system so
you could 'charge' it with electricity then the lines becomes blurred
and it might reasonably be called an EV but as it is it's a hydrogen
powered car. it's obviously not an EV.

the EV is so we can run a car on electricity, from solar, from nuclear,
from waterfalls, from windpower etc etc. you can in principle generate
hydrogen from electricity and feed it with that but by the same token
you could generate gasoline from electricity and feed that to a normal
ICE car. that wouldn't make that an EV either.

it's not an EV. deal with it

Dan


joe wrote:
> A fuel cell is NOT an engine, it is merely a type of battery; the only
> difference is that it generates it's own power rather than just
> storing it.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [email protected]
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
>
>
>> In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:50:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>> [email protected] writes:
>> ________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas engine
>> of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY and the
>> primary
>> drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is
>> hydrogen
>> doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it aboard
>> instead
>> of charging it externally.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>>
>> What if the car had a hydrogen fueled piston engine driving an AC
>> generator
>> hooked to an AC motor, what would it be then???
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the
>> all-new AOL at
>> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>>
>>
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #17
In a message dated 8/1/2007 6:12:01 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
xxxxxx
A fuel cell is NOT an engine, it is merely a type of battery; the only
difference is that it generates it's own power rather than just storing it.
------------
I think you would consider a fuel cell similar to an engine/generator,
because you put fuel in one end and get electrical power out the other. There is
no electrical energy stored in a fuel cell.
However a battery just stores electrical energy.
So wouldn't an EV have stored electrical energy, battery/cap whatever, to
drive an electric motor, anything added, generator, fuel cell, solar etc. make
it a hybred?

My two watts worth.
Jim




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