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EVan-Quadricycle

98116 Views 286 Replies 20 Participants Last post by  Dave Koller, 
Woodsmith
3
Thread title changed from EVan-Tricycle as the project now has four wheels.

This thread is a continuation from my earlier Trike thread which can be found here: LINK.
The direction of the build project changed somewhat due to personal circumstances and so it seemed sensible to split the thread and make it easier to follow.


I am going to revisit this project as I have a lot of parts and I want to build something that will be (legislation allowing) a road vehicle.

On that basis I am not placing any strict long term goals but just experimenting with an idea.
The original concept was for a vehicle to do a 35mile (possibly 70mile round trip) commute but, with the job gone and my ailing health making it unlikely I will ever choose to work outside of the local area, I can relax the requirements and change the concept to suit.

The requirement is a vehicle that will be good for a couple or three miles on 40mph busy roads, with the same again in stop start urban traffic, and have an overall 15-20 mile range (for round trips) with gentle driving.
I will also need to be able to carry my tools and some construction materials to jobs, or a craft stall and stock for Arch and her craft items to go to local markets and craft fairs.

I got the impetus from Todd's Ice Cream Van, now the PackRat project and looking at old vans like this.


The idea would be to look at a forward control (cab over) version to give maximum load area.

I had played around ideas with both three and four wheel versions, including looking at using a Citroen 2CV rolling chassis.

It would be ideal, front motor, front wheel drive, flat clear load area, except that they are getting expensive, rusty, and the brakes and load capacity are tiny. However, a big wheeled 'Beryl' would be perfect.

This is 'Beryl'.


I also would like to use the parts I have, where possible to save money, and that means the MGB front axle assembly.
It has the advantage that the steering rack is ahead of the axle and so easier to rotate the column forwards to put the steering wheel ahead of the axle line.

I am going to work up some sketches around placing a two seat cab (similar to 'Beryl's') placed over the axle, with the wheels under the seat box and foot well ahead of the wheels.
Behind the cab will be a battery pack in the floor with a covered cargo compartment above.

If I go with a trike layout then the existing rear motor and swing arm will be used. However, if I happen across an MGB rear axle cheaply then I can put the motor on the front axle cross-member and have a drive shaft to the rear axle. I think if direct drive was good enough in the original plans then it may still work now, but there is the option of adding a transmission in the middle.

The plan is to use one of the 72v controllers I have been gifted and some 'pre-loved' lead acid batteries to get it mobile and legal (fingers crossed) and then look at how much performance it gives to determine how much more I will need to get the performance and range I want.

Stage one will be to mock up the cab over the front axle and leave the rest of the chassis vague as that part is going to be variable depending on pack, wheel arrangement and load space needs.

This will, as always, progress slowly as I am about to be busy demolishing and rebuilding a bathroom for my folks, and also building my marital bedroom suite.:p


So, when I get a chance for a breather I will do some measured sketches and see if this works and warrants its own thread.;)
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toddshotrods
Re: I want to build a trike!

Woodsmith said:
...Maybe I have to take inspiration from Todd and run a jackshaft!:D
Click to expand...
I love the idea on Schism (have yet to get beyond the mock-up:rolleyes:). ;) It totally transformed the front of the car, making the whole drivetrain come together, and making it look badazz. I was kicking against the pricks up to that point, as nothing really worked, functionally or aesthetically.
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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

Only thing with a jackshaft is covering up more chain and also possibly noise. May also rethink toothed belts.

It was kinda cool for a moment thinking of two speeds so motorway speeds for a mile or so might have been a possibility.:rolleyes::D
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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

I have been picturing the jackshaft as a long shaft taking the drive from one end of the motor to the other end, resulting in the motor DE facing to the other side of the trike to the final drive chain.
It would require two sprockets, splined or keyed to a shaft that is able to handle the torque. this could be a little costly and require more accurate engineering.


However, I could also get two pilot bore sprockets.

I can then line them up on a setting up shaft and bolt them together using the boss for chain clearance. The bore can then be machined out for a pair of bearings and then the set up fitted to a fixed shaft at the DE of the motor.
Easier and simpler and the motor faces the same way.

I'll do a drawing another time as I am not at home.
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toddshotrods
Re: I want to build a trike!

Woodsmith said:
I have been picturing the jackshaft as a long shaft taking the drive from one end of the motor to the other end, resulting in the motor DE facing to the other side of the trike to the final drive chain.
It would require two sprockets, splined or keyed to a shaft that is able to handle the torque. this could be a little costly and require more accurate engineering.


However, I could also get two pilot bore sprockets...

...I can then line them up on a setting up shaft and bolt them together using the boss for chain clearance. The bore can then be machined out for a pair of bearings and then the set up fitted to a fixed shaft at the DE of the motor.
Easier and simpler and the motor faces the same way.

I'll do a drawing another time as I am not at home.
Click to expand...
That makes a lot of sense, if I'm "seeing" correctly. Should make for a nice, neat, little setup. ;)
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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

If it makes sense then you must be seeing it correctly, hopefully the same way I am seeing it!:D
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Woodsmith
EVan-Tricycle

I had one of those 'couldn't sleep at night' thoughts about the gearing.

The compound sprockets is the simplest solution, but in the wrong place. It gets in the way of having the motor out on its own and uncluttered.

The solution is to incorporate the compound sprockets into the swing arm.
If I use 10 and 20 tooth sprockets bolted together and placed with bearings on a sliding axle midway along the swing arm then adjusting the eccentric tensioner in the wheel hub will tension both runs of chain.

One chain guard would cover the chain run and render it mostly inconspicuous.
It would also be a good point at which to adjust gearing to suit once the trike is running.

I will need to rebuild the swing arm to fit it in properly but I think I can do a better job of the swing arm at the same time.:)
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toddshotrods
Re: I want to build a trike!

Woodsmith said:
I had one of those 'couldn't sleep at night' thoughts about the gearing.

The compound sprockets is the simplest solution, but in the wrong place. It gets in the way of having the motor out on its own and uncluttered.

The solution is to incorporate the compound sprockets into the swing arm.
If I use 10 and 20 tooth sprockets bolted together and placed with bearings on a sliding axle midway along the swing arm then adjusting the eccentric tensioner in the wheel hub will tension both runs of chain.

One chain guard would cover the chain run and render it mostly inconspicuous.
It would also be a good point at which to adjust gearing to suit once the trike is running.

I will need to rebuild the swing arm to fit it in properly but I think I can do a better job of the swing arm at the same time.:)
Click to expand...
Awesome Woody! ;)
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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

I think I am going to have to get the sprockets and some more scrap metal to start fabricating soon, see if it works.:)
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Woodsmith
3
Re: I want to build a trike!

I just want to throw an idea out to those with more know how then I have as I am just pondering the more elegant looking options....:)

With very little work I can make clearance on the swing arm to fit a 57t sprocket on the hub. I will need to machine the sprocket to fit the hub mounting.
I could then have a 12t sprocket on the motor which will give me a 4.75:1 ratio, close enough to the 5:1 I'd like.

However....

The sprocket on my motor is currently a 17t on a taper lock clamped around a hollow sleeve that used to be a gear pinion.


As a reminder, the motor is really like a giant golf buggy motor and doesn't have a bearing on the DE of the armature. The shaft is just splined and locates inside the gear pinion which is supported by the bearing in the new DE cap. The gear teeth were machined off leaving a 40mm sleeve with internal splines.



Anyway, If I was to buy a 12t pilot bore sprocket, bore it out to a shrink fit on the 40mm splined sleeve, shrink it on and then weld it I would have a 12t drive sprocket on the motor.

Would that be a wise move, to weld the sprocket on, or am I setting myself up for a headache later on?

If it is acceptable could I MIG or stick weld it or should I find someone to TIG weld it on?

Cheers.:)
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MalcolmB
Re: I want to build a trike!

Hi Woody

I reckon it should be OK if you machine a good shrink fit. Would it be too much extra work to turn down the end of the shaft to remove those grooves and maximise surface contact?

The main thing in welding something like this, as you probably know, is to try and keep the cooling rate as slow as possible to avoid cracking, since you'll be welding a relatively low-carbon sprocket to a higher carbon shaft. I would preheat the shaft to 150–200C. TIG would be better than MIG as it has a higher heat input. MIG welds freeze faster.
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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

Thanks Malcolm.:)

I'm not sure if I can turn away the grooves, they are as hard as the gear teeth were IIRC. I removed the gear by grinding and then by turning, losing a couple of cutter tips in the process.

If I can turn it it would also provide a good square shoulder to set the sprocket against.
Maybe grinding away the hard surface first would be a good way to prepare for turning.

I may have to opt for someone else to carry out the whole job to sufficient accuracy and strength, given I don't have TIG.
I would need to be careful as the sprocket would need to go at the correct end of the sleeve and I've not had much luck with farming out 'one chance only' machining work.:rolleyes:
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toddshotrods
Re: I want to build a trike!

Ditto what Malcom said, and I would add that, depending on how much you intend to use the trike, you have to keep wear in mind with a 12T sprocket. It will probably wear the chain more, but it's something to keep in mind as you can't just pop a new sprocket on it.

I would go for it personally. Replacement shouldn't be needed very often, and it should be too difficult to cut the TIG welds on a lathe.
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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

Yes, that was one of my concerns. I figured that I could always turn off the worn sprocket and replace as required. Also by the time I have worn out the first one I might also have a better solution.

I guess I should try to find someone who can TIG it for me.

I will also need to find someone to machine the rear sprocket to match the hub mounting. It is too big for my lathe, and will need the bolt holes accurately indexed.

All this is getting spendy, not helped by wanting the sprockets to be Duplex for the stronger chain.:D
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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

I am going out, this morning, to have a look at this little truck I found on Ebay. It is so starkly ugly that it is sweet!:D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/W-E-Elect...3120898?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item19daaf8f02


This is mainly due to a crisis of confidence while looking at the mounting cost of scratch building and getting the trike legal.

I figured that I could probably upgrade this to be road legal, and a bit more potent, for less overall cost. I could replace both axles with MGB items and have direct drive to the rear diff, then add lights and other legal stuff prior to an inspection and road registration.
Either that or I look for a Rascal/Supercarry/Hijet type van/pickup and convert it with only the change of fuel issue to deal with.

The trike isn't dead though. I slept last night, first 'longer then an hour' sleep for nearly two weeks and have a plan....:D

More later if I get a chance to do a mock up...:)
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Woodsmith
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Re: I want to build a trike!

OK, the 'li'l red EV' was cute, but also rusty, flaky pastry rusty in some places and spotless in others.
Not sure if the three part windscreen, with the silicone glue line just in the line of sight, would be street legal either.


Anyway....

Have a look at this inside shot of the BMW K100 gearbox.
It has an input shaft, two main shafts with dog clutches on both, and a selector cam stack.

Will it run upside down? I am thinking of swapping the breather and the sump plug and inverting the box. The photos are deliberately ambiguous to solicit opinion as to whether I can get away with it or not.;)



Right the plan.

I have been bogged down with the idea of using the 11" motor, hanging proud off the back of the chassis. That gives me lots of headaches over getting all my gear reduction in the swing arm to take advantage of the torque for direct drive within the right speed range.

So, I had another 'clean sheet of paper' think about it (no, I'm still not going front wheel drive yet).

If I use the BMW final drive (2.91:1) at the end of the chassis to carry a sprocket to give a 1:1 chain drive, and then drive it using the BMW gearbox (upside down to get the propeller shaft on the right side), and then drive the gearbox with the 9" motor from the tractor, I can get the whole package inside a 15" wide, 12" high, backbone chassis with the batteries hung on either side.

This setup gives me five speeds (not all will be useful) with 17, 25.9, 33.3, 40.8, and 47.6mph at 3000rpm. The 9" motor may well be safe at higher rpm and so I could reduce the top speed either by ignoring 5th gear or by changing the sprocket on the final drive unit.
Given the smaller motor and lower torque I can probably get away with a single strand chain and not have to spend lots on duplex sprockets and machining.
<watches tumble weed roll by>:eek:


I can then use the 11" motor to drive the Land Rover axle, via the Lada transfer box, on the tractor, just for fun!:D

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toddshotrods
Re: I want to build a trike!

Woodsmith said:
...Have a look at this inside shot of the BMW K100 gearbox.
It has an input shaft, two main shafts with dog clutches on both, and a selector cam stack.

Will it run upside down? I am thinking of swapping the breather and the sump plug and inverting the box. The photos are deliberately ambiguous to solicit opinion as to whether I can get away with it or not.;)...
Click to expand...
Looks like it will still pick up fluid and sling it around fine. Plus, you're only going to be spinning it (input) at 3K - I think it would live. :)
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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

toddshotrods said:
Looks like it will still pick up fluid and sling it around fine. Plus, you're only going to be spinning it (input) at 3K - I think it would live. :)
Click to expand...
Good, I thought that given one mainshaft was in oil and the other wasn't meant that it pretty much didn't care one way or the other. It might even go sideways up with both main shafts in the oil.

I reassembled the gearbox, after looking for the little detent ball that fell inside, and mocked up the 'sort of' layout in the photo.

The motor can go up front on the axle crossmember, under the seats. I can then mount the mechanical reverse switch and controller close to it and boxed in away from the weather.
A short prop shaft will go to the gearbox and then a longer prop shaft to the final drive.
Given the final drive has a four bolt mounting I can just bolt it onto a plate at the end of the chassis so it is the only part of the trans, up to that point, that is exposed.

The backbone of the chassis can then be a closed structure with just cooling to the motor, if it needs it, and water cooling to the controller.

The gearbox can also have all the extraneous bits of casting removed to save space. A third of it is just stuff to support the clutch lever and the swing arm.

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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

I did a bit of measuring and did a quick measured sketch.

I figured I can just about fit all the motor and trans inside a 12" square back bone. That lead me to drawing in 12" square section battery boxes on each side with cut outs for the swing arm bearings and the gear selector. the tail end of the battery boxes may be tapered down towards the swing arm to 'tie' them in a bit.

I figured that I could run on 72V if my top speed is that low and I have gears to play with and the battery boxes will have plenty of room for decent 6v or 12v cells and lots of insulation. I am hoping they will 'hang' on the outside of the chassis like truck fuel tanks.

The chassis will be divided along the length to isolate the long propshaft and to give room for the service battery, charger, controller, etc.

I am wondering if I can make it out of large radius folded sheet steel with internal bracing and bulkheads. Maybe a complete 'closed tank look' with access hatches for the bits inside.:rolleyes:
Otherwise four lengths of round tube with sheet welded in the sides and base.

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toddshotrods
Re: I want to build a trike!

Woodsmith said:
I did a bit of measuring and did a quick measured sketch.

I figured I can just about fit all the motor and trans inside a 12" square back bone. That lead me to drawing in 12" square section battery boxes on each side with cut outs for the swing arm bearings and the gear selector. the tail end of the battery boxes may be tapered down towards the swing arm to 'tie' them in a bit.

I figured that I could run on 72V if my top speed is that low and I have gears to play with and the battery boxes will have plenty of room for decent 6v or 12v cells and lots of insulation. I am hoping they will 'hang' on the outside of the chassis like truck fuel tanks.

The chassis will be divided along the length to isolate the long propshaft and to give room for the service battery, charger, controller, etc.

I am wondering if I can make it out of large radius folded sheet steel with internal bracing and bulkheads. Maybe a complete 'closed tank look' with access hatches for the bits inside.:rolleyes:
Otherwise four lengths of round tube with sheet welded in the sides and base.
Click to expand...
Now, I'm getting confused between our trike projects! I first looked at the sketch and thought where is he going to sit?! Then, I remembered where the cab is, and realized I was trying to sit you in my kart seat! :D

Regarding the PM, I think Arch's advise is sound, and this truck plan is super cool - it just feels like "Woody". PackRat actually wouldn't be a trike, it would still be a delivery if I didn't have two other projects to balance... ;)

I like the folded sheet idea - isn't that how the low-cost cars are built?
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Woodsmith
Re: I want to build a trike!

Looking at Todd's trike, and how the frame rails extend past the outsides of the rear wheel axles, I decided to have a look at mine to see how that would look. Not going to do it as I would not be able to remove the wheel and it would completely alter the single sided swing arm look.

In the process it occurred to me that now I don't have a big motor at the back the swing arm pivots don't need to be so far apart. In my earlier sketch, above, I placed the joints on either side of the chassis with the FD unit in between set to the left.
However, without the motor it also means I can move both pivots to the right of the FD and bring them closer together reducing the width of the swing arm.

It will increase the forces on the pivots due to lateral loading on the rear wheel. I am using M20 rose joints, they are big! The chassis in that area can be 'big' too!:D

Seriously though. If the pivot is strong enough like that then it does simplify the build and layout .:)

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