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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.

Scenario: The year is 2050, you're in a post-apocalyptic wasteland
formerly known as Las Vegas. You must get 100 miles to the next town to
save the lives of everyone in that town who's in danger of dying of
dehydration. They have 24hours to live in the blistering desert heat,
and you must bring them life saving water. The ONLY way to travel is by
an EV that you build yourself. Money still exists (somehow) and you only
have $10K in your pocket with no hope of outside financial help. No
vehicles exist in the town you are in., but there is a store that
carries EVERY part to build an EV from scratch.

Could you build an EV with a 100 mile range with $10K?


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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Eric,

Too easy, post-apocalyptic means no laws, no regulations no police no
inspections.
Now try that today and watch your humanitarian effort wither away as
would the thirsty people.

The growing older and more cynical,

Doc Kennedy

Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.
>
> Scenario: The year is 2050, you're in a post-apocalyptic wasteland
> formerly known as Las Vegas. You must get 100 miles to the next town to
> save the lives of everyone in that town who's in danger of dying of
> dehydration. They have 24hours to live in the blistering desert heat,
> and you must bring them life saving water. The ONLY way to travel is by
> an EV that you build yourself. Money still exists (somehow) and you only
> have $10K in your pocket with no hope of outside financial help. No
> vehicles exist in the town you are in., but there is a store that
> carries EVERY part to build an EV from scratch.
>
> Could you build an EV with a 100 mile range with $10K?
>
>
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The analogy is palpable. Funny so many people claim to love EVs yet they
can't step up when challenged. Unless of course they think the challenge
is stupid. If so, then they should call it.

Otherwise, step up and quench the thirst. Think outside the box, or is
that just not possible for the older cynical types? ;)

Eric


On 9/24/2010 7:18 AM, Doc Kennedy wrote:
> Eric,
>
> Too easy, post-apocalyptic means no laws, no regulations no police no
> inspections.
> Now try that today and watch your humanitarian effort wither away as
> would the thirsty people.
>
> The growing older and more cynical,
>
> Doc Kennedy
>
>
Eric<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.
>>
>> Scenario: The year is 2050, you're in a post-apocalyptic wasteland
>> formerly known as Las Vegas. You must get 100 miles to the next town to
>> save the lives of everyone in that town who's in danger of dying of
>> dehydration. They have 24hours to live in the blistering desert heat,
>> and you must bring them life saving water. The ONLY way to travel is by
>> an EV that you build yourself. Money still exists (somehow) and you only
>> have $10K in your pocket with no hope of outside financial help. No
>> vehicles exist in the town you are in., but there is a store that
>> carries EVERY part to build an EV from scratch.
>>
>> Could you build an EV with a 100 mile range with $10K?
>>
>>
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>>
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>

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Did this list just morph into one of those telnet MMORG's ?

That is a little un-realistic, you mean of the potentially hundreds of
thousands of vehicles in the state of Nevada none of them would be within
walking distance in 2050 ? did we get nuked ? did every piece of steel get
melted down into tanks when we fought the Chinese ?

This miracle store that exists in post apocalyptic Las Vegas, does it have
the facilities to manufacture fiberglass or carbon fiber ? what about smelt
magnesium or aluminum alloys ?

Heck, I think what I'll do is hop on down the the local bamboo farm which
sprang up in 2034 to satisfy the need for local sustainable building
materials. I could perhaps fashion a chassis and battery box from that ?

In all seriousness Eric, a lot of people on this list probably have thought
about making their own Ev from scratch, coming to the conclusion it is
cheaper to use an existing platform ... like I dunno a TRUCK like the one
mentioned by Lee.
Trucks are built to carry the weight, and if you beef them up some more they
will carry enough lead for a 100mi trip.
They are readily available, and unless some freak occurrence (peak oil ?
wouldn't that give us a surplus of trucks to convert ?) between now and 2050
makes them all but disappear that's probably what a post-apocalyptic Ev
would look like.
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hang on a minute ... you have to travel 100 miles on the cheapest batteries
you can find AND you have to haul enough water to quench the thirst of a
town ? ... for under $10k ? or will the EV be used to transport pieces of a
pipeline ?

www.facepalm.org
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Humans require about 4-6L of water a day, depending on circumstances
(weather). You've said it's extreme, so let's call it 10L. That's 10kg
of water, or 22 pounds of water per person, per day. So you'd need to
build a tanker truck. Knowing that chop shops break up cars because
they're more valuable as parts than as a whole, there's little chance of
building a tanker from the ground up at retail part prices AND in
addition making it an EV for under $10k.

So either we must be assuming a free donor vehicle/non-working shell,
and/or not concerned about the weight of the water/number of people to
save/number of days, as well as assuming a 0-day build time and zero
labor cost, and already full battery pack.

GIVEN THOSE ASSUMPTIONS, a recumbent eBike as used by Oliver and
Catherine Bock will easily meet your requirements of hauling this
imaginary zero mass/zero volume water for infinite people, moving you
the 100 miles in well under a 24-hour time period and be lightweight
enough that a solar panel as a shade will actually give a benefit.
TheGreenRiders.org easily did 50-80 miles per 8-10 hour day and Oliver
turned 56 at my house.

You probably wouldn't even need that 0-day build time if you were
experienced in putting together an eBike... Oliver said it was a
weekend/8-hour project, leaving 16 hours for travel time.

Or, if you're not looking for a vehicle to move PEOPLE, just water, then
using the broadest definition of vehicle (a device or structure for
transporting persons or things) you take a pipeline as your donor
vehicle to move the water and cheap electric pumps along the way to keep
it moving to satisfy your electric component of your vehicle
requirement. No donor vehicle? Cost of piping above $10k? Buy a bunch
of straws, tape 'em together and trickle it there (again, labor is free,
and we've zero build time, no?) Benefit with this method is you've
solved the problem in perpetuity, as long as YOUR supply of water
doesn't run out.

What is this thing you call a box? I don't see how it helps or applies
to problem solving.

[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Eric
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV

Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.

Scenario: The year is 2050, you're in a post-apocalyptic wasteland
formerly known as Las Vegas. You must get 100 miles to the next town to
save the lives of everyone in that town who's in danger of dying of
dehydration. They have 24hours to live in the blistering desert heat,
and you must bring them life saving water. The ONLY way to travel is by
an EV that you build yourself. Money still exists (somehow) and you only

have $10K in your pocket with no hope of outside financial help. No
vehicles exist in the town you are in., but there is a store that
carries EVERY part to build an EV from scratch.

Could you build an EV with a 100 mile range with $10K?


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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
"EVERY part to build an EV from scratch"

Including the frame, body, axles, etc? There's more to a vehicle than just
the powertrain. When I did a frameoff restoration/rebuild of one of my
vehicles a couple years ago, I couldn't believe the endless list of little
details and components.

We'll weave a hemp body, hardened with some rosin from the EV store, and use
the bamboo from Dave's post for the frame and axles.

Or maybe buy EVERY part from the store to build something that will haul
water 100 miles.

I hope that store sells 5 ton axles and parts to make a tanker trailer.
With brakes.

Brett

Eric <[email protected]> wrote:

> *No vehicles exist in the town you are in* but there is a store that
> carries EVERY part to build an EV from scratch.
>
>
>
> On 9/24/2010 9:47 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
> > On 9/24/2010 1:21 AM, Eric wrote:
> >
> >> ...Could you build an EV with a 100 mile range with $10K?
> >>
> > I'd say that one is easy. Dick Finley's "Red Beastie" (built by John
> > Wayland) was an example of one way to do it. It was a Toyota Pickup,
> > with 40 golf cart batteries in the bed, and beefed-up suspension to
> > carry the weight. ADC 9" series motor, and PWM controller (Auburn? I
> > don't recall the brand).
> >
> > It easily did 100 miles at 60 mph, and went something like 140 miles on
> > a charge with careful driving. I believe they *did* in fact build it for
> > under $10k.
> >
> >
>
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I suppose the cheapest way to transport a large quantity of water would
be to build a huge water tank in the form of a cylinder. Set it on its
side, and roll it. A round steel tank on a concrete road should have
pretty low rolling resistance. Tow or push it with whatever sort of
vehicle you can throw together. :)

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
How big is the town? Most towns 100 miles away from Vegas are pretty
small. A few cases of water in the back of a pickup truck will do the
trick. Worst case, most 16' utility flatbed trailers (car hauler) will
handle 7000 lbs (axle and bearing rating). So, with better tires, and to
use round numbers, you could put 1000 gallons on one, either in barrels,
bottled water, or whatever. Then you just need to tow it. So, assume
10,000 of material and water, add 5000-7000 lbs for whatever the
propulsion "vehicle" is, assume 16,000 lbs.

...I saw a pic a while back of a dodge minivan front grafted on to the front
of a utility trailer. Strange brew.

This is a great question though.

I *am* interested in hearing what basic recipe of batteries, controller and
motor will move this weight, 100 miles.

In a real situation, I'd McGyver whatever had wheels on it and get the folks
some drink.

Brett (ice, ev, pedals, whatever)

Eric <[email protected]> wrote:

> Here's a challenging thought experiment to think outside the box.
>
> Scenario: The year is 2050, you're in a post-apocalyptic wasteland
> formerly known as Las Vegas. You must get 100 miles to the next town to
> save the lives of everyone in that town who's in danger of dying of
> dehydration. They have 24hours to live in the blistering desert heat,
> and you must bring them life saving water. The ONLY way to travel is by
> an EV that you build yourself. Money still exists (somehow) and you only
> have $10K in your pocket with no hope of outside financial help. No
> vehicles exist in the town you are in., but there is a store that
> carries EVERY part to build an EV from scratch.
>
> Could you build an EV with a 100 mile range with $10K?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Keep in mind if you can build it in 10hrs and leave 14hrs for build time it
only has to move at about 8-10mph ....
crazy problem and restrictions, but yeah its fun.
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
you haven't specified how much water needs to be carried, and if it indeed
needs to be carried.
Should we spend all the time not on the vehicle but a weather control device
to make it rain 100 miles away ?
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Eric, it could be done. Period, you can build an EV now, to "post
apocalyptic specifications" that will do more than 100miles

A truck frame (or if you're going to be anal, a truck type frame we built
ourselves in under 5hrs) and about 2,000lbs of lead
could probably be thrown together for under 6k, and everything else with the
remaining money.

Here are a couple of EVs on this page:
http://www.grassrootsev.com/100club.htm
that illustrate it is possible. If all the vehicle was, was a frame,
batteries and motor, you'll do 100miles if you want.

Now, do you want to get a bit more specific about the water or are you just
baiting for fun ?
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Can anyone think outside the BOX? Concentrate on the car... ;) The
amount of water is irrelevant. Say you have a magic bottle of Jesus
water... There's plenty for millions of people in 1 water bottle. Let's
say you win a $10K more hypothetical dollars for winning the challenge.

Can you build an EV with a 100 mile range from the ground up with $10K?

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Just get an electric forklift and an abandoned tanker trailer. Fill the
tanker with water, lift the 5th wheel end with the forklift and travel at
5mph or so. Pick up a bunch of extra batteries and charge them before the
trip. This is an oversimplified answer, and maybe a wheel set (truck) would
be needed at the 5th wheel end, a way to interconnect the extra batteries
(or swap them), but the idea is to keep it simple so that you can spend most
of your time moving rather than buiding an ev.



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dave Hymers
Sent: 24 September, 2010 1:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV

Hang on a minute ... you have to travel 100 miles on the cheapest batteries
you can find AND you have to haul enough water to quench the thirst of a
town ? ... for under $10k ? or will the EV be used to transport pieces of a
pipeline ?

www.facepalm.org
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Magic water bottle... Sure, build a small autonumous flying EV, glider
style, that carries only the magic water bottle and enough lithium to
make the journey.



Eric <[email protected]> wrote:
> Can anyone think outside the BOX? Concentrate on the car... ;) The
> amount of water is irrelevant. Say you have a magic bottle of Jesus
> water... There's plenty for millions of people in 1 water bottle. Let's
> say you win a $10K more hypothetical dollars for winning the challenge.
>
> Can you build an EV with a 100 mile range from the ground up with $10K?
>
> _______________________________________________
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>



--
www.electric-lemon.com

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Bottom line: if its a single seater ultra light trike, built with a lithium
pack, then yes possibly you could
build an EV from the ground up for under 10k and perhaps squeeze 100miles
from it.

I spent quite a bit of time deciding whether I wanted to build a trike with
a lead pack that might
have got me about 60 miles and I priced it in at around 7-8k. BUT I can't
weld, so sub contracting that work would probably over shoot that.

Today its more or less a needless exercise for someone with only $10k to
attempt to build a 100mi
machine from absolutely nothing. That person would need to work in an
industry with access
to a few tools you couldn't factor into that budget and be much more
talented than me.

I say needless, as you can simply buy a truck and clone Red Beastie.
/thread.
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Eric wrote:

> Forget how much water you need... Concentrate on building the car.

What is this "car" thing you speak of? What colour is the sky in *your* box? ;^>

Seriously, it makes little sense for you to be critical of others for being cognizant of all of the constraints that you've defined in your problem statement. If the problem wasn't well-stated, then re-state it.

EV's are built to satisfy relatively specific missions, and you've defined this mission as the transport of water 100mi (over post-apocalyptic roads...), in the vicinity of Las Vegas, to save a town's inhabitants from dying of thirst. Clearly, the amount of water that must be transported has a huge impact on the characteristics of the suitable EV.

If you want the focus to be on design of an EV from the ground up that can transport *some* amount of water 100mi, but the amount isn't important, I'm going to build something resembling a 'Zappy' scooter (2 wheels, 1 person, 12V motor, no controller), but with a 200Ah+ pack of floodies. 10-12hrs after it is assembled, my bottle of water and I will roll into your town with $9k+ of the original $10k still in my pocket. ;^>

As others have noted, a $10K EV budget goes a lot further in a post-apocalyptic desert setting where none of it need be spent on mundane items such as looks (bodywork), comfort (seats, heat, windows, windshield wipers/washers), safety (airbags, seatbelts, crashworthiness).

Cheers,

Roger.

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Yes, a railgun that will fire ice laden slugs 100 miles into a concrete slab
that the other townsfolk have built !
brilliant.
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Townspeople did not die due to lack of water ;-). Water delivered via rapid "infusion". Solves additional problem of leading to water AND can make them "drink". Problem said get water to town via electric vehicle and think outside the box...

Concrete slabs build walls, walls build boxes... Must get people outside the box!

Tear down the walls (that build the boxes, full of ticky tacky )

Post apocalyptic times, a railgun might prove useful...


[email protected]


----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri Sep 24 18:50:58 2010
Subject: Re: [EVDL] $10K 100 Mile EV

Yes, a railgun that will fire ice laden slugs 100 miles into a concrete slab
that the other townsfolk have built !
brilliant.
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Shucks, I try to ignore Eric, but all of you arent thinking out side of his
box, Surprise I noticed a railroad track goes from Las Vegas to the town,
so I leased a railroad tank car for $1. and found a 8 inch motor at the
"Junque" exchange, and 250 GC batteries connected in banks and sitting them
on the flat surface under the tank. I welded up a support to chain drive the
RR tank car axle direct, and pressurized the brake line with a bicycle tire
pump, using a manual clip the bank to the motor, and when it starts slowing
down switch to the next bank away we went down the track at 25 mph to the
town with 10,000 gallons of water. PS today my "BOX" is cylindrical, about
12 feet in diamete and 65 feet long...
Dennis Miles

Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 9/24/2010 6:20 PM, Eric wrote:
> > Can anyone think outside the BOX? Concentrate on the car... ;) The
> > amount of water is irrelevant. Say you have a magic bottle of Jesus
> > water... There's plenty for millions of people in 1 water bottle. Let's
> > say you win a $10K more hypothetical dollars for winning the challenge.
> >
> > Can you build an EV with a 100 mile range from the ground up with $10K?
>
> Yes. It just won't be very pretty or practical or "polished".
>
> For instance, there are any number of cars and trucks with bad motors
> that can be had for next to nothing. You can scrounge up an old motor
> from a forklift or something for little more than the scrap metal price.
> You can get used batteries that are down to say 80% of their original
> capacity (from places that automatically replace them every 3 years
> whether needed or not). Throw together a contactor controller. Gear it
> for low speed, so wind resistance is negligible.
>
> Overload the heck out of the chassis, to get 50% of the total weight to
> be in batteries, and there's your 100 mile range.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
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>



-- =

Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passeng=
er
vehicles.
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