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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looking for an outside breaker box (240 volt) that also has an outlet
built in ...obviously so I can recharge my EV with it......anyone
already hunted one of these down???

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Michael Mohlere
My EV: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/296.html

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Hello Michael,

These units are call power outlets that may have 20 to 50 amp 3 or 4 wire
receptacles in a rain tight box with a hinge cover that allows the cable
with a 90 degree plug to come out the bottom of the cover while the cover is
close and lock.

You can get the box it self and mount it on a pole which you then run a
watertight conduit to your circuit breaker panel, or to a large junction box
inside your house for splicing unto a non-metallic cable to run to your
breaker panel and to a branch breaker that is rated for the power box
receptacle.

You can also get these steel power boxes with a combination steel channel
post that has terminal lugs in the bottom duct. You then can run under
ground feeders which are label UF for this type of work. You then must run
this type of UF wire through the wall or foundation with a conduit nipple to
a inside junction box to splice on to the non-metallic cable.

In both cases, the entrance hole around the conduit and wires entering the
conduit, must be seal with electrical duct putty to prevent water from going
in. In some cases, we may bend the conduit out of the ground, which goes up
the wall and then install a cast conduit elbow call a SLB for going through
the wall of the house.

You can get these units from a electrical supply house or sometimes Home
depot may have some in stock or can order one for you.

There are two types of power boxes. One is for a RV that uses no GFCI
circuit breakers in it and the other one is use for construction site
temporary power that requires a GFCI circuit breaker for 30 amp and larger
receptacles. The ones for a 20 amp 120 vac receptacles will be have GFCI
receptacles.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mohlere" <[email protected]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 4:51 PM
Subject: [EVDL] 220 volt breaker box + outlet combo


> Looking for an outside breaker box (240 volt) that also has an outlet
> built in ...obviously so I can recharge my EV with it......anyone
> already hunted one of these down???
>
> --
> Michael Mohlere
> My EV: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/296.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Any good electrician or electrical supply house can get these for you - they
are made by Midwest as a "Power Outlet" in a raintite box with a lift-up
lid.

Used for RV's, marine power, etc.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mohlere" <[email protected]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:51 PM
Subject: [EVDL] 220 volt breaker box + outlet combo


> Looking for an outside breaker box (240 volt) that also has an outlet
> built in ...obviously so I can recharge my EV with it......anyone
> already hunted one of these down???
>
> --
> Michael Mohlere
> My EV: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/296.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date:
> 10/11/2007 9:11 AM
>
>

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
From: storm connors
> I think Bob's original question had to do with standardization of
> a 220 outlet. There are too many varieties. What outlet should we
> install for EVs?

It will be difficult to define a standard 240vac connector, because the entire concept of the NEC and NEMA goes against this idea. The standards define dozens of *different* connectors; one for every combination of voltage, current, number of phases, locking and non-locking, etc. The whole idea is to prevent people from plugging things into the "wrong" receptacle.

Think about your home stereo receiver. It has AC power inputs and outputs using one kind of connector (NEMA 5-15; the "standard" 125vac 15amp connectors found all over your home); low-level audio inputs and output using a different connector (RCA phono connectors); and speaker outputs using yet a third kind of connector. The connectors are different to make it idiot-proof -- you can mix-n-match within each group and while it may not work if you plug something into the wrong socket, at least nothing bad will happen.

But what would happen if you used the *same* connectors for both AC power and speakers? Some idiot might plug his speaker into the AC wall receptacle, or his high-power speaker output into a low-level audio input. Zap! Smoke! Fire!

NEC and NEMA have tried to prevent people from plugging high-power things into lower-power outlets that are too weak to support them, or from plugging in things that draw so little current that the fuses or circuit breakers in a high-power receptacle won't protect them. They did this with a bewildering array of connectors with different numbers of pins, with different sizes, shapes, orientations and spacings. You can see just some of them at this web page:

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/dept_id_963.htm?sid=AF74E7C5D92DD8ADB2A48835280E348E&pid=1208

To pick a connector, you need to know a) the voltage, b) the current, c) the number of phases, d) with or without ground, e) locking or non-locking, etc. Unless everyone standardizes on the same charger input power, we can't pick a standard connector!

About the only hope I see is the defacto standard of a 120vac 15amp charger, which uses the extremely common NEMA 15-5 (125vac, 15amp) connectors.

For 240vac, the most common one in public use is the NEMA 14-50 (250vac, 50amps). You find them in RV parks and marinas, but are unlikely to find one in anyone's home unless it was specially ordered. Note that the code doesn't allow you to plug 120vac 15amp devices into a 14-50 outlet (for example, by changing the plug on your 120vac 15amp charger) because the 50 amp circuit breakers on the 14-50 outlet won't trip until the fault current is high enough to melt the cord or set fire to the 120vac 15amp device.


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
From: David Nelson
> Ok, so if, for example, I installed a 50 amp receptacle and I plugged
> in my Gizmo's <15amp charger I'd have to make sure I had an adapter
> with a 15amp fuse since that is the rating of the cord.

Yes. That 14-50 receptacle will have a circuit breaker that won't trip until you exceed 50 amps. If some fault in your charger makes it draw (say) 40 amps, the breaker won't trip. But the *cord* to your charger is probably sized for only 15 amps, so it could melt or short or catch fire.

So, to do this safely, you'd install a 14-50 plug on your cord, with a 15 amp fuse *in* the plug itself. They make plugs like this, though they are rare. Interestinly, in Europe they are quite common, since their standard home AC receptacles are 230vac.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
From: Roland Wiench
> Correct... You should not take a 50 foot length of No. 18 extension
> cord and put a 15 amp load on it and plug it into a 15 amp receptacle
> that is wired with No. 12 AWG wire to a 20 amp circuit breaker...
> The device at the end of this cord may have overload limits built
> into it... Some taps that are hard wired (not plug in) will have tap
> fuses either by a hard wire circuit breaker or even a plug in circuit
> breaker into a feeder.

Good points.

But, one concern is that most EV battery chargers are *not* UL listed, because UL hasn't written test standards for them, and battery charger manufacturers haven't seen fit to encourage them to do so. This means that they often do *not* adhere to UL or NEC guidelines. There is a tendency to depend on these loopholes:

- The charger goes in the car, and UL doesn't regulate stuff in cars.
- The SAE regulates stuff in cars; but they haven't bothered with EVs.

So, typical chargers do not have the safety overload devices to work safely if plugged into a receptacle with a higher current rating.

Part of any EV charging receptacle standard would also need to define what must be in the *charger* to make it compliant.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Probably a more germaine section of the code would be 240.5 B(1) which deals
with portable cords. The BIG sticking point is of course as Lee pointed out
the NEC deals with "listed" equipment as much as possible. Unfortunately ,
listing often means that the manufacturer has paid tribute to the listing
agency. I know from experience that UL will sell me a license to put their
sticker on the control panels I build but they don't accept any liability
for the quality or workmanship.

I am not suggesting that someone use a too small "stench" cord as Mr Rice so
poeticly calls them, but the code section above calls out a supply cord of a
listed appliance to be permitted to be supplied with a 20 amp cord capacity
on a 50 amp circuit. I expect the logical thought in the section is that
the listing of the appliance (battery charger for example) would require the
necessary overcurrent device as the first component fed in the appliance.

Personally, I use a heavy duty 12 ga SO cord on The Skunk and if I ever get
a PFC 30 I will use at least a 10 ga cord. In all cases the extension cord
should be as short as possible. It makes no sense to spring for a high
power charger and then lose the power in heat and voltage drop in the
extension cord.

respectfully,
John Neiswanger
The Skunk
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 220 volt breaker box + outlet combo


> From: Roland Wiench
>> Correct... You should not take a 50 foot length of No. 18 extension
>> cord and put a 15 amp load on it and plug it into a 15 amp receptacle
>> that is wired with No. 12 AWG wire to a 20 amp circuit breaker...
>> The device at the end of this cord may have overload limits built
>> into it... Some taps that are hard wired (not plug in) will have tap
>> fuses either by a hard wire circuit breaker or even a plug in circuit
>> breaker into a feeder.
>
> Good points.
>
> But, one concern is that most EV battery chargers are *not* UL listed,
> because UL hasn't written test standards for them, and battery charger
> manufacturers haven't seen fit to encourage them to do so. This means that
> they often do *not* adhere to UL or NEC guidelines. There is a tendency to
> depend on these loopholes:
>
> - The charger goes in the car, and UL doesn't regulate stuff in cars.
> - The SAE regulates stuff in cars; but they haven't bothered with EVs.
>
> So, typical chargers do not have the safety overload devices to work
> safely if plugged into a receptacle with a higher current rating.
>
> Part of any EV charging receptacle standard would also need to define what
> must be in the *charger* to make it compliant.
>
> --
> "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Lee and All,
I probably posted about this before, but...

Years ago when I was volunteering out at the BMX bicycle racing track, I put together a "safe" charging cord like you described below, based on the 14-50 plug. Out at the track next to the starting gate, there was one of the RV style pedestals with a 14-50 receptacle (four prong 240 volt 50 amp), which I would run my buzz box off of to repair the gate, and a 120 volt 20 amp GFCI that we ran the air compressor from. Now that I think about it, it did not have a 120 volt 30 amp receptacle that a lot of RV's use, like our pop-up camper.

Anyway, I had bought a kWhr meter from Steve Ciciora to
keep track of my power use in order to reimburse the track, and to offer my mother-in-law 20 cents, as she always thought I was sucking up dollars! I bought a 14-50 range plug which has a short cord, and fed that into the meter. I had a 3-phase 30 amp knife switch style box lying around (with three barrel style fuses), so I wired that into the output of the meter (with six gauge wire of course!), and hung a 10-30 receptacle off of it for the off-board FrankenLester (240 volt 30 amp), and a 120 volt 20 amp GFCI receptacle for the on-board Zivan. I made adapters as I needed them to connect my 14-50 plug to other 50 amp receptacles, and 30 amp dryer receptacles (aka, Bruce (EVangel) Parmenter opportunity charging!) This set-up has worked great over the years, and has allowed me to reimburse places that I would regularly charge at, like my sister-in-laws in a neighboring town (when I was a drum-line parent roady), and at a community radio station in another neighboring town. Sin!
ce the truck is always charged through the kWhr meter, it is also useful for keeping track of watt-hours per mile when you don't have an e-meter. Over the 20k miles that I got out of the last traction pack, the lead brick vehicle averaged $0.04 per mile for electricity!
Suck Amps,
BB


>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:10:26 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Lee Hart
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>
>From: David Nelson
>> Ok, so if, for example, I installed a 50 amp receptacle and I plugged
>> in my Gizmo's <15amp charger I'd have to make sure I had an adapter
>> with a 15amp fuse since that is the rating of the cord.
>
>Yes. That 14-50 receptacle will have a circuit breaker that won't trip until you exceed 50 amps. If some fault in your charger makes it draw (say) 40 amps, the breaker won't trip. But the *cord* to your charger is probably sized for only 15 amps, so it could melt or short or catch fire.
>
>So, to do this safely, you'd install a 14-50 plug on your cord, with a 15 amp fuse *in* the plug itself. They make plugs like this, though they are rare. Interestinly, in Europe they are quite common, since their standard home AC receptacles are 230vac.
>
>--
>"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net


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