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Discussion Starter #1
I want to add a ceramic heater to my Cabriolet for this winter. I'll
probably pay a local Rabbit mechanic to do the under the dash work
since I don't really have the time or inclination for it. Have a few
questions:

1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater should be fine, but if
someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear about it.

2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap heaters at Lowes or
somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and using that. I
also see a ceramic heater core at evparts for almost $200. I'm
wondering if there is an advantage is to buying the $200 part other
than avoiding disassembly?

3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone have a schematic of
how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm wondering how you
wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.

Thanks alot - De

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Discussion Starter #2
I have not spent time looking into specific products and their ease of
installation but just in case you didn't know I'd add that compression
heaters (same principle as refridgerator) can give you roughly 3 times
as much heat as you spend energy.
because heating can be a significant part of the power consumption a 3x
gain is worth something.

whether a useful product exists though I don't know

Dan


Deanne Mott wrote:

>I want to add a ceramic heater to my Cabriolet for this winter. I'll
>probably pay a local Rabbit mechanic to do the under the dash work
>since I don't really have the time or inclination for it. Have a few
>questions:
>
>1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater should be fine, but if
>someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear about it.
>
>2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap heaters at Lowes or
>somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and using that. I
>also see a ceramic heater core at evparts for almost $200. I'm
>wondering if there is an advantage is to buying the $200 part other
>than avoiding disassembly?
>
>3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone have a schematic of
>how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm wondering how you
>wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.
>
>Thanks alot - De
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

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Discussion Starter #3
Hello Deanne,

If you are talking about a under dash heater, then these are the types you
can get from a auto parts store, that has a bracket and you fasten it up to
the bottom of the dash. If you want to replace a existing hot water core,
then you use a ceramic core from a existing heater.

For a water core replacement, do not remove the ceramic core from the inner
housing that also contains a high temperature limit which is use to prevent
the heater to go over temperature. The inner housing can be remove from the
outer heater housing. You first measure the opening of the water core
housing and pick out a heater that has a inner housing and see if that will
fit in the same place.

You should not use a bare ceramic core in some water core housings if they
are made out of plastic. Sometimes you may have to make a metal enclosure
to house the electric elements, install the high temperature limits and
there may be low temperature limits too which shuts down the fan if the air
is too cool.

Normally you are using the existing vehicle 12 volt fan for this. Only the
main battery voltage of lets say is 144 volts, can only go to the heater
elements only, not any taps off to any controls like the limits control.

A 1500 watt will do just fine for defrosting and heating. I am using two
heaters here in Montana, one 1000 watt unit for the heater core and two
under dash units that are 640 watts. All last winter I only use the one 640
watt on the driver side, even at 33 below zero.

A 1500 watt heater at 120 vac is normally about 12.5 amps, so I use a 20 amp
circuit breaker or fusetrons on both lines. You do not use any ground wire
in this wiring, because you are then applying one side of the main battery
voltage to the frame of the vehicle. Keep it isolated.

I do not like a standing battery voltage apply to a unit 24 hours a day, so
you should either have to turn on the circuit breaker, or use a remote
control circuit breaker unit.

To control the electric heater, I use a 2 pole contactor that is design for
the main battery voltage. Use a 12 volt coil in this contactor. A on dash
12 volt switch uses a fuse 12 volt source that goes threw the switch,
through the limit controls in the heater housings and than to the heater
contactors coils.

The heater wires in the inner heater housing are a high temperature glass
insulated type. The wires that are between the inner and outer housing can
be a 90 C. rating which is normally where the power cord is connected. If
you do not disturb the inner wiring housing wiring, than you could use a 600
volt 90 C. Type THWN-THHN 19 stranded copper wire in a No. 10 AWG size. The
12 volt control wire should be the same rating, except it can be about No.
14 AWG size.

It is best to heave the circuit breaker or fuses and contactors as close to
the battery as possible. Another reason to have a two pole contactor, so
when you charge the battery, you are not suppressing a higher voltage on
this circuit. Should keep the main batteries isolated from the motor
controller circuits and other devices while charging.

If you use a under dash unit like I do, (my are the way back so I can even
see them), then you have to rewire them, so only the heater elements are on
battery power, and the control circuit uses 12 volts.

I did the heating system a completely different way then the above. The 120
volt heater units do not come directly off the batteries. The 120 volt
heater feed lines go to solid state contactors, to a 30 amp 2 pole three
position transfer switch which is control by a three position on dash
switch.

>From the transfer switch the line, two lines go to a on-board rotating DC-AC
inverter that can provide 6000 watts at 120 60 hz. This unit is power my
the pilot shaft of the main motor and provides REGEN while going down hills,
and provides some braking.

Also two more line come from the transfer switch, go to chassis mounted 20
amp circuit breakers, that tap off a 60 amp circuit breaker main for the
main charger power.

While the EV is park and plug in, I can preheat the EV by setting a timer
about 15 minutes before I leave. This is enough pre heating to heat the
passenger compartment to over 80 F. which makes it frost free for about 5
mile driving.

Another thing to remember, the engine water heat to a heater core, may be
over 200 F. So this temperature by controlling a damper door that brings in
cold air to reduce this temperature. So when I rework my existing hot water
heater core, I modified these damper doors so as not to bring in any cold
air into this duct work. I found that I only needed 50 F. to start
defrosting the windshield.

It may be best to get a electrical tech that knows electric heating systems
to plan this job out for you. There are some good mechanics they are also
good in this type of installation.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Deanne Mott" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Adding ceramic heater to Cabriolet


> I want to add a ceramic heater to my Cabriolet for this winter. I'll
> probably pay a local Rabbit mechanic to do the under the dash work
> since I don't really have the time or inclination for it. Have a few
> questions:
>
> 1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater should be fine, but if
> someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear about it.
>
> 2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap heaters at Lowes or
> somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and using that. I
> also see a ceramic heater core at evparts for almost $200. I'm
> wondering if there is an advantage is to buying the $200 part other
> than avoiding disassembly?
>
> 3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone have a schematic of
> how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm wondering how you
> wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.
>
> Thanks alot - De
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #4
Uh, what?????

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:46 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding ceramic heater to Cabriolet

I have not spent time looking into specific products and their ease of
installation but just in case you didn't know I'd add that compression
heaters (same principle as refridgerator) can give you roughly 3 times
as much heat as you spend energy.
because heating can be a significant part of the power consumption a 3x
gain is worth something.

whether a useful product exists though I don't know

Dan


Deanne Mott wrote:

>I want to add a ceramic heater to my Cabriolet for this winter. I'll
>probably pay a local Rabbit mechanic to do the under the dash work
>since I don't really have the time or inclination for it. Have a few
>questions:
>
>1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater should be fine, but if
>someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear about it.
>
>2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap heaters at Lowes or
>somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and using that. I
>also see a ceramic heater core at evparts for almost $200. I'm
>wondering if there is an advantage is to buying the $200 part other
>than avoiding disassembly?
>
>3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone have a schematic of
>how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm wondering how you
>wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.
>
>Thanks alot - De
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

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Discussion Starter #6
I did the hardware store space heater.
Advantages: No ripping up the dash
Disadvantages: Still need to have arc suppression;
need to replace 120V fan for 12V muffin fan running
off of the cigarette lighter; need to have a good
location. Ie, the dash of a Rabbit is not the ideal
place for a 12" x 4" x 10" space heater.

One ceramic heater is fine (say for example) San
Francisco, but rather anemic for the worst days in
Colorado or the Pacific Northwest.

peace,

--- Myles Twete <[email protected]> wrote:

> Uh, what?????
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:46 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding ceramic heater to
> Cabriolet
>
> I have not spent time looking into specific products
> and their ease of
> installation but just in case you didn't know I'd
> add that compression
> heaters (same principle as refridgerator) can give
> you roughly 3 times
> as much heat as you spend energy.
> because heating can be a significant part of the
> power consumption a 3x
> gain is worth something.
>
> whether a useful product exists though I don't know
>
> Dan
>
>
> Deanne Mott wrote:
>
> >I want to add a ceramic heater to my Cabriolet for
> this winter. I'll
> >probably pay a local Rabbit mechanic to do the
> under the dash work
> >since I don't really have the time or inclination
> for it. Have a few
> >questions:
> >
> >1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater
> should be fine, but if
> >someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear
> about it.
> >
> >2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap
> heaters at Lowes or
> >somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and
> using that. I
> >also see a ceramic heater core at evparts for
> almost $200. I'm
> >wondering if there is an advantage is to buying the
> $200 part other
> >than avoiding disassembly?
> >
> >3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone
> have a schematic of
> >how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm
> wondering how you
> >wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.
> >
> >Thanks alot - De
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For subscription options, see
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 "CiviWithACord" DVD shows footage of my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?



____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
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Discussion Starter #7
I have a diagram that is still on my makeshift page.

http://webpages.charter.net/belchertownev/

I recall that more knowlegable people on the list have indicated
there are no major issues with it.

The heater section is based on the heater relay package the KTA sold/
sells. Depending on your comfort with pushing specs the relay that
Ryan sells at ev source can replace the relay/capacitor/diode mess
show in the diagram.


All that said, if I were to do it over again, I would use a hot water
system that uses the stock heater core. Taking apart my dash was a
ROYAL PITA, and I ended up breaking a number of parts in the process.
I may mark out the place to cut into the firewall (as Dennis?
suggested) should I ever need to get back to the heater.

John





Deanne Mott wrote:

> I want to add a ceramic heater to my Cabriolet for this winter. I'll
> probably pay a local Rabbit mechanic to do the under the dash work
> since I don't really have the time or inclination for it. Have a few
> questions:
>
> 1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater should be fine, but if
> someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear about it.
>
> 2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap heaters at Lowes or
> somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and using that. I
> also see a ceramic heater core at evparts for almost $200. I'm
> wondering if there is an advantage is to buying the $200 part other
> than avoiding disassembly?
>
> 3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone have a schematic of
> how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm wondering how you
> wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.
>
> Thanks alot - De
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #8
Actually you can! Just tap the lowest fan speed power wire. The
resistor is only around 5 ohms from end to end for about a 1/2 volt
drop to the heater relay with the fan on high (using a KUEP heater
relay - about 120 ohm coil.) Generally the KUEP relay is still seeing
over 12 volts to power it with a decent DC to DC converter.

Paul Gooch

Bill Dube wrote:

> I put diodes on all the positions of the fan speed switch to
> enable the heater relay. Works perfectly. No fan = no heater power.
> You can't just use the fan wire because the voltage is dropped via
> the resistor.

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Discussion Starter #9
Deanne,

One of the best rundowns on various heating systems can be found here:

http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater.html
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater_install.html

Cameron's design is very safe, but it takes out a fuse for every fault
condition. The References section links to a page of John Wayland's
experiences with various types of heaters, including a "scientific" test
of ceramic heaters, 1 vs 2 ceramic cores, etc.

On my Cabriolet conversion I used two 1,500 watt ceramic heaters that were
on sale for $15 at the local hardware store. They are installed where the
A/C core was - so I can get heat out of the center and side vents as well.
Note that some Cabriolets use a bypass relay for the highest fan speed -
this may cause problems when designing your heater safety systems.

The heater elements are controlled with high voltage DC relays.
Resistor/capacitor snubbers are used to reduce arcing on relay make/break.
Small contactors (Kilovac LEV200, Albright SW-60) also work - and they
don't need snubbers. I'm using 10A, 150VDC relays from EV Source with no
issues so far.

12V from the fan speed switch powers the relays. Temperature snap switches
the relays off if things get too hot. Each snap switch sits directly in
front of a heater element. I was too conservative on my switch selection,
so the heat kicks off just as my car starts to get warm!

My wiring looks like this (view with a fixed width font):

Fan 1 --->|--+ +--(relay coil)--(heat
switch 1)--Ground
| |
Fan 2 --->|--+--{snap switch)--(snap switch)--+--(relay coil)--(heat
switch 2)--Ground
| |
Fan 3 --->|--+ +--(relay coil)--(heat
switch 3)--ground

Pack+ ---(30A fuse)---(relay contacts)---(heater element)--- Pack -

->|- is a diode used to keep from shorting out the fan switch. The
original temperature slider lever turns on 1, 2, or 3 heat switches based
on its position. There is one safety issue with this design - the heating
elements will stay ON if the heater fan fails. They actually cycle on/off
slowly because the temperature switches shut things down :)

Some people will point out that using power from the fan switch will cause
the relays to turn on/off more slowly, resulting in greater arcing on the
HV side and reduced contact life. YMMV.


Adrian

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Discussion Starter #10
Hey,

I was just looking at your schematic, and I see one major problem with your
circuit:

The diode across the vacuum pump is facing the wrong way! The way you've
drawn it, it will allow current to flow from +12 to gnd, shorting your
accessory 12V system! To fix this, just reverse the direction of the diode.
(The diode is important, but it has to face the right direction.)

-Morgan LaMoore

On 9/23/07, John <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I have a diagram that is still on my makeshift page.
>
> http://webpages.charter.net/belchertownev/
>
> I recall that more knowlegable people on the list have indicated
> there are no major issues with it.
>
> The heater section is based on the heater relay package the KTA sold/
> sells. Depending on your comfort with pushing specs the relay that
> Ryan sells at ev source can replace the relay/capacitor/diode mess
> show in the diagram.
>
>
> All that said, if I were to do it over again, I would use a hot water
> system that uses the stock heater core. Taking apart my dash was a
> ROYAL PITA, and I ended up breaking a number of parts in the process.
> I may mark out the place to cut into the firewall (as Dennis?
> suggested) should I ever need to get back to the heater.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
Deanne Mott wrote:
>
> > I want to add a ceramic heater to my Cabriolet for this winter. I'll
> > probably pay a local Rabbit mechanic to do the under the dash work
> > since I don't really have the time or inclination for it. Have a few
> > questions:
> >
> > 1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater should be fine, but if
> > someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear about it.
> >
> > 2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap heaters at Lowes or
> > somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and using that. I
> > also see a ceramic heater core at evparts for almost $200. I'm
> > wondering if there is an advantage is to buying the $200 part other
> > than avoiding disassembly?
> >
> > 3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone have a schematic of
> > how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm wondering how you
> > wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.
> >
> > Thanks alot - De
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Discussion Starter #11
John wrote:
...
> All that said, if I were to do it over again, I would use a hot water
> system that uses the stock heater core. Taking apart my dash was a
> ROYAL PITA, and I ended up breaking a number of parts in the process.
> I may mark out the place to cut into the firewall (as Dennis?
> suggested) should I ever need to get back to the heater.
>
> John

I have EV water haters for the job, but this is rather OEM solution.
Despite the ROYAL PITA fact as you put it, ceramic heater
is $15 at Wal-mart, too tempting. Liquid heater is $600-700.
(ceramic one requires some parts around it to make it work
reliably, but all hardware may still be well under $100).

It's how much your time really worth. Many who have done
stock core removal would gladly pay twice as much as liquid
heater cost not to do it again, but other's have hard time
taking their word for it. $15 is so tempting. So more often than not
people who has plenty of time/skill but can't justify the money,
don't mind taking half car apart. This also gets the job done.

If you have fun taking your dash apart and don't mine the work
you could avoid using existing but expensive solution, use
ceramic heater. No doubt liquid heater is *technically* far
better solution, no relays, snubbers, DC switches or any external
parts needed. Plumbing into existing core realistically may take
30 min. or so. (If they'd also cost $15 now many people would
use ceramic ones?), but majority people on this list
the cost is [understandably] first priority and technical
advantages - second.

With ceramic heater you get heat 3 seconds after it's on,
with liquid cooled one - it may take 30 seconds
never mind trhat in ICE it takes minutes).

I've never heard of anyone not surviving 25 seconds lag but this
is used to emphasize advantage of the ceramic heater, and it
certainly is. Decide if it's important one (aside your time
and fun factor taking your dash apart. It is fun, you will learn
a lot!).

Victor

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Discussion Starter #12
Take a look at my heater on my website. I am very pleased with how it works. It is made from a "Titan" brand heater from the local walmart. Gets plenty hot. Get some 30 amp or better bosch relays off Ebay to run the heater. The ceramic elements are not inductive so no snubber circuits are needed. Gets hot in about 30 seconds with all the heat you could want( unless you are pretty far up north). I had to make an interface for my automatic climate control unit to keep the elements from coming on if the fan speed is too low or off. No big deal to do at all with $5 worth of parts from my local electronic supply. I used the air flap servo motor (with the air flap removed from the heater box) as an actuator to turn on the elements in the "hot" zone of the temperature range. I have the option to add temperature regulation later, but may not need it since this type of heater gets hotter at higher fan speeds. I will see how it works in the winter and add more circuitry a!
s needed later. I don't think you can beat the $25 or so I spent on the whole project!

Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com


---- Victor Tikhonov <[email protected]> wrote:
> John wrote:
> ...
> > All that said, if I were to do it over again, I would use a hot water
> > system that uses the stock heater core. Taking apart my dash was a
> > ROYAL PITA, and I ended up breaking a number of parts in the process.
> > I may mark out the place to cut into the firewall (as Dennis?
> > suggested) should I ever need to get back to the heater.
> >
> > John
>
> I have EV water haters for the job, but this is rather OEM solution.
> Despite the ROYAL PITA fact as you put it, ceramic heater
> is $15 at Wal-mart, too tempting. Liquid heater is $600-700.
> (ceramic one requires some parts around it to make it work
> reliably, but all hardware may still be well under $100).
>
> It's how much your time really worth. Many who have done
> stock core removal would gladly pay twice as much as liquid
> heater cost not to do it again, but other's have hard time
> taking their word for it. $15 is so tempting. So more often than not
> people who has plenty of time/skill but can't justify the money,
> don't mind taking half car apart. This also gets the job done.
>
> If you have fun taking your dash apart and don't mine the work
> you could avoid using existing but expensive solution, use
> ceramic heater. No doubt liquid heater is *technically* far
> better solution, no relays, snubbers, DC switches or any external
> parts needed. Plumbing into existing core realistically may take
> 30 min. or so. (If they'd also cost $15 now many people would
> use ceramic ones?), but majority people on this list
> the cost is [understandably] first priority and technical
> advantages - second.
>
> With ceramic heater you get heat 3 seconds after it's on,
> with liquid cooled one - it may take 30 seconds
> never mind trhat in ICE it takes minutes).
>
> I've never heard of anyone not surviving 25 seconds lag but this
> is used to emphasize advantage of the ceramic heater, and it
> certainly is. Decide if it's important one (aside your time
> and fun factor taking your dash apart. It is fun, you will learn
> a lot!).
>
> Victor
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


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Discussion Starter #13
>What I would suggest it that you go down to the junk yard and
>carefully examine an under dash unit that is already out of the car.
>Make careful measurements of the location of the heater core. Armed
>with these measurements, using a Dremel, cut just the right sized
>hole in the driver's side of the under dash unit of your car and
>extract the heater core

Scirocco.org has a detailed description of the procedure. It should be similar on any A1 VW. (Rabbit, Scirocco, Cabriolet, Rabbit Pickup)

The site won't let me link to it directly, but it's in the FAQ, under HVAC.

Bill

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Discussion Starter #14
This is exactly what I was suggesting. Here is a link to the procedure:
http://www.driversfound.com/scirocco/techtips/body/heatercore/

Nice pictures showing exactly where to cut.

Bill D.


>Scirocco.org has a detailed description of the procedure. It should
>be similar on any A1 VW. (Rabbit, Scirocco, Cabriolet, Rabbit Pickup)
>
>The site won't let me link to it directly, but it's in the FAQ, under HVAC.
>
>Bill
>
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Discussion Starter #15
On 23 Sep 2007 at 13:23, Myles Twete wrote:

> Uh, what?????

Translation : heat pump. The GM EV1 had a heat pump. A few other factory
EVs may have used them.

It would be a lot of work, though certainly not impossible for someone with
ample mechanical skills and financial resources, to fit one to a conversion.

Ceramic cores and hot water heaters are the easier and very common
approaches with conversions.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter #16
On 23 Sep 2007 at 13:39, Deanne Mott wrote:
> 1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater should be fine, but if
> someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear about it.

How well insulated is the top of that car?

> 2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap heaters at Lowes or
> somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and using that.

I don't know about the ones EVparts sells, but Randy Holmquist at Canadian
EV (who should know a thing or two about staying warm ;-) sells a nice
German-made ceramic insert (or at least he did a few years ago). The
inserts you'll get when you eviscerate cheap big-box store heaters will NOT
be made in Germany, I can assure you.

They may very well work just fine, and they may last for years. However, as
I see it, it's a huge hassle to disassemble the instrument panel. I'd
gladly pay more for a Randy's unit in the hope that I won't have to do the
job twice. If you have more time than money, you might take the opposite
approach.

> 3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone have a schematic of
> how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm wondering how you
> wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.

If you get it from CEV, Randy will be able to supply all the additional
bits. If you don't, you can get relay kits from other EV parts vendors (I'm
pretty sure EVparts and Electro Automotive have them).
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter #18
Hi EVerybody;
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding ceramic heater to Cabriolet


> On 23 Sep 2007 at 13:39, Deanne Mott wrote:
>> 1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater should be fine, but if
>> someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear about it.
>
> How well insulated is the top of that car?
>
>> 2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap heaters at Lowes or
>> somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and using that.

> Guilty! I bought 3 "White Wasteinghouse" Chinesy heaters from Wall *Mart,
> gutted two and the survivor soldiers on in my bathroom, (Like a toasty
> bathroom in the winter) Two heaters gave their lives in the Rabbit heating
> project, at 17 each, it wadsn't a budget busting thing.Fitted the two cute
> little ceramic heaters, side by side on an aluminum plate that slid in
> where the old heater corpse WAS. Hooked them up in parallel, had a small
> contactor to turn them ON when I moved the blower motor lever to,
> well......Blow, couldn't go with the heater switch "Off" It worked pretty
> good down to the low 30's. Because it didn't recirculate, drew air in from
> the cowll, under the hood. Drew about 20 amps. I ram it in the "Defrost"
> mode as a clean windshild was better, safety wise than a warm ass!I just
> dressed warmly and used(Gasp) driving gloves!

> I don't know about the ones EVparts sells, but Randy Holmquist at Canadian
> EV (who should know a thing or two about staying warm ;-) sells a nice
> German-made ceramic insert (or at least he did a few years ago). The
> inserts you'll get when you eviscerate cheap big-box store heaters will
> NOT
> be made in Germany, I can assure you.

> And Randy's a good guy. Trust yur heater issues to him, our good
> neighbour to the North.

> They may very well work just fine, and they may last for years. However,
> as
> I see it, it's a huge hassle to disassemble the instrument panel. I'd
> gladly pay more for a Randy's unit in the hope that I won't have to do the
> job twice. If you have more time than money, you might take the opposite
> approach.
>
>> 3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone have a schematic of
>> how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm wondering how you
>> wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.

> Actually the old Rabbit's heater box is fairly easy to get at, IF you are
> a patient contortunist<g>!I had a 82, sedan, LS, or Lethargic and Slow, as
> a Diseasel, to start with.I would imagine ALL the Rabbits were about the
> same? As I said above I just took voltage, 120 volts directly from the
> battery pack, ran a small contactor, but ya need a capaciter or diode as
> an arc suppression or it makes like a DC Arc Welder, when it opens under
> load!! This one gets gone over on the List EVery heating season! The EE
> Garu's here could probably suggest WHAT size Crapaciter to use across the
> relay tips? I never tried a diode? Might work, anybody? In the free
> wheeling diode principles?

Other thoughts on a Hot topic; HEAT in the #@$%^ Winter. I bought a hot
water heater element, and some 2inch pipe, oh, maybe 10" or so, and caps and
screw fittings to try to MAKE a instant on type HWH. Will drill a few holes
and braze in nipples for an IN and OUT setup, and a circulating pump, put
thois 'way down low for it will have a meltdown IF the water, WITH
anti-freez, ISN'T moving. So the circ pump MUST be hardwired to circulate
when the Heat switch is turned on.AND ya want the circ pump to go while the
element is off, to cool it down.

Advantages here: No having to dismantle ANYTHING under the dash!! This is
a biggie, as I think cars are BUILT around a heater assembly sitting on the
ground?Volvo comes to mind! Spent a DAY digging out a Godamn Cheapo heater
motor to oil the #$% bearings, that went dry!Ya would think Volvo, "Drive
Safely"COULDA given ya some decent bearings?!You SHOULD still have the two
heater feed fittings in your firewall, hiding in plain sight, ready to hook
up?

Hope all that helps?

Bob

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Discussion Starter #19
All,
Speaking of it being a "huge hassle to disassemble the instrument panel",
if you install a ceramic core, I would recommend bringing all five of the taps
all the way out of the box, just in case you change the pack voltage later!
BB

>Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:00:47 -0400
>From: "David Roden" <[email protected]>
>
>On 23 Sep 2007 at 13:39, Deanne Mott wrote:
>> 1.) I think in NC that a single 1500W heater should be fine, but if
>> someone in the area disagrees I'd like to hear about it.
>
>How well insulated is the top of that car?
>
>> 2.) I remember reading about folks buying cheap heaters at Lowes or
>> somewhere and removing the ceramic core from it and using that.
>
>I don't know about the ones EVparts sells, but Randy Holmquist at Canadian
>EV (who should know a thing or two about staying warm ;-) sells a nice
>German-made ceramic insert (or at least he did a few years ago). The
>inserts you'll get when you eviscerate cheap big-box store heaters will NOT
>be made in Germany, I can assure you.
>
>They may very well work just fine, and they may last for years. However, as
>I see it, it's a huge hassle to disassemble the instrument panel. I'd
>gladly pay more for a Randy's unit in the hope that I won't have to do the
>job twice. If you have more time than money, you might take the opposite
>approach.
>
>> 3.) I am wondering about the wiring. Does anyone have a schematic of
>> how they wired up their heater? In particular I'm wondering how you
>> wire it up to the pack, how it is isolated, etc.
>
>If you get it from CEV, Randy will be able to supply all the additional
>bits. If you don't, you can get relay kits from other EV parts vendors (I'm
>pretty sure EVparts and Electro Automotive have them).

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