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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Folks I was wondering if anyone had successfully added interpoles to
one of the larger ADC motors,to facilitate re-gen? To me it looks
possible but very tight with the armature current having to flow through
them. It sure works well in my old G-van with the big Nelco motor! I
think the old Kostov and some forklift motors also had interpoles? Also
what about rewinding the field to be sep ex ? I think it would be the
same total amount of copper, only in a lot thinner wire.
Just some random thoughts, Bill

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Discussion Starter #2
William Brinsmead wrote:
> Hi Folks I was wondering if anyone had successfully added interpoles to
> one of the larger ADC motors, to facilitate re-gen? To me it looks
> possible but very tight with the armature current having to flow through
> them.

It could be done, but as you say, there is very little room. An
interpole motor usually uses the next size larger diameter outside case,
so the fields can be made thicker and smaller in diameter, to get room
for the interpoles.

It is also tricky to get the right number of turns on the interpoles.
The "old masters" knew how, but today it may be a lost art. You'd
probably have to do it by trial and error. Then test it to see if you
have the right amount of correction.

> I think the old Kostov and some forklift motors also had interpoles?

Some Kostovs have them. I've never seen a forklift motor with
interpoles, but I guess it's possible. You normally see them in motors
built for high voltages, and for operation as generators.

> Also what about rewinding the field to be sep ex ? I think it would be the
> same total amount of copper, only in a lot thinner wire.

That is pretty straightforward. You'd probably wind it with something
like 30 times the number of turns of wire with 1/30th the cross
sectional area. This would change the field from a 1v 300a winding to a
30v 1amp winding. With a 120v pack, this lets you briefly overpower the
field by 4:1 for high starting torque (equivalent to 400a on the
original 100a field).

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #3
About 10-12 years ago, after riding Greg McCrea's nifty little sep-ex
car, I had some discussions with him over a period of months about
setting up regen for my car. One of the things we touched on was having
my 8" ADC rewound as sep-ex, and I gathered this would not be too hard
to do. Just about any decent motor shop could do it - perhaps send it
into Warfield Electric. However, I think Greg's emphasis was on selling
me a Kostov w/ interpoles, and selling my ADC (I even got a telephone
call from someone interested in buying it, as apparently Greg had
already put the word out). It was a case of Down Boy, Down!, and it
never came off. My 8" ADC is still stock (with the exception of 9"
brush rigging put in in 2005 - a whole 'nother story), and humms down
the road to this very day.

Chuck

William Brinsmead wrote:
> Hi Folks I was wondering if anyone had successfully added interpoles to
> one of the larger ADC motors,to facilitate re-gen? To me it looks
> possible but very tight with the armature current having to flow through
> them. It sure works well in my old G-van with the big Nelco motor! I
> think the old Kostov and some forklift motors also had interpoles? Also
> what about rewinding the field to be sep ex ? I think it would be the
> same total amount of copper, only in a lot thinner wire.
> Just some random thoughts, Bill
>
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Discussion Starter #4
William,
After reading all these replies, my take on it is, if you don't want
to pay to redesign the motor and add another bunch of electronics, you will
be de-bugging a system that may not work smoothly without months of work and
thousands of dollars. Why not just buy an AC motor and controller for the
car , install them in a weekend, and sell the series dc motor and controller
to someone else at a reasonable price then spend your time Grinning and
driving a system with regen that will outlive the car...
Dennis Miles
(Sometimes the lazy way is more fun in the long run.)
==========================================
Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:

> About 10-12 years ago, after riding Greg McCrea's nifty little sep-ex
> car, I had some discussions with him over a period of months about
> setting up regen for my car. One of the things we touched on was having
> my 8" ADC rewound as sep-ex, and I gathered this would not be too hard
> to do. Just about any decent motor shop could do it - perhaps send it
> into Warfield Electric. However, I think Greg's emphasis was on selling
> me a Kostov w/ interpoles, and selling my ADC (I even got a telephone
> call from someone interested in buying it, as apparently Greg had
> already put the word out). It was a case of Down Boy, Down!, and it
> never came off. My 8" ADC is still stock (with the exception of 9"
> brush rigging put in in 2005 - a whole 'nother story), and humms down
> the road to this very day.
>
> Chuck
>
> William Brinsmead wrote:
> > Hi Folks I was wondering if anyone had successfully added interpoles to
> > one of the larger ADC motors,to facilitate re-gen? To me it looks
> > possible but very tight with the armature current having to flow through
> > them. It sure works well in my old G-van with the big Nelco motor! I
> > think the old Kostov and some forklift motors also had interpoles? Also
> > what about rewinding the field to be sep ex ? I think it would be the
> > same total amount of copper, only in a lot thinner wire.
> > Just some random thoughts, Bill
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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> >
>
>
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--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884
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Discussion Starter #5
I wonder if it is possible to fit an extra set of brushes at a different
angle for regen?

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Chuck Hursch
Sent: Saturday, 27 November 2010 10:51 p.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding Interpoles to a ADC motor

About 10-12 years ago, after riding Greg McCrea's nifty little sep-ex
car, I had some discussions with him over a period of months about
setting up regen for my car. One of the things we touched on was having
my 8" ADC rewound as sep-ex, and I gathered this would not be too hard
to do. Just about any decent motor shop could do it - perhaps send it
into Warfield Electric. However, I think Greg's emphasis was on selling
me a Kostov w/ interpoles, and selling my ADC (I even got a telephone
call from someone interested in buying it, as apparently Greg had
already put the word out). It was a case of Down Boy, Down!, and it
never came off. My 8" ADC is still stock (with the exception of 9"
brush rigging put in in 2005 - a whole 'nother story), and humms down
the road to this very day.

Chuck

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Discussion Starter #6
Sure, AC is nice, but aren't AC drives rather pricey? And I think it
would be a veerrry LONG weekend.

Dennis Miles wrote:
> William,
> After reading all these replies, my take on it is, if you don't want
> to pay to redesign the motor and add another bunch of electronics, you will
> be de-bugging a system that may not work smoothly without months of work and
> thousands of dollars. Why not just buy an AC motor and controller for the
> car , install them in a weekend, and sell the series dc motor and controller
> to someone else at a reasonable price then spend your time Grinning and
> driving a system with regen that will outlive the car...
> Dennis Miles
> (Sometimes the lazy way is more fun in the long run.)
> ==========================================
>
Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> About 10-12 years ago, after riding Greg McCrea's nifty little sep-ex
>> car, I had some discussions with him over a period of months about
>> setting up regen for my car. One of the things we touched on was having
>> my 8" ADC rewound as sep-ex, and I gathered this would not be too hard
>> to do. Just about any decent motor shop could do it - perhaps send it
>> into Warfield Electric. However, I think Greg's emphasis was on selling
>> me a Kostov w/ interpoles, and selling my ADC (I even got a telephone
>> call from someone interested in buying it, as apparently Greg had
>> already put the word out). It was a case of Down Boy, Down!, and it
>> never came off. My 8" ADC is still stock (with the exception of 9"
>> brush rigging put in in 2005 - a whole 'nother story), and humms down
>> the road to this very day.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> William Brinsmead wrote:
>>> Hi Folks I was wondering if anyone had successfully added interpoles to
>>> one of the larger ADC motors,to facilitate re-gen? To me it looks
>>> possible but very tight with the armature current having to flow through
>>> them. It sure works well in my old G-van with the big Nelco motor! I
>>> think the old Kostov and some forklift motors also had interpoles? Also
>>> what about rewinding the field to be sep ex ? I think it would be the
>>> same total amount of copper, only in a lot thinner wire.
>>> Just some random thoughts, Bill
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>


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Discussion Starter #7
Lee Hart wrote:
> On 11/28/2010 12:01 AM, George Tyler wrote:
>> I wonder if it is possible to fit an extra set of brushes at a different
>> angle for regen?
>
> This wouldn't work. The brushes deliberately short two adjacent
> commutator bars as they cross over them. The brush timing is such that
> the arnature coil being shorted just happens to be passing through zero
> volts; thus minimal arcing.

So let me try to understand a little motor theory here. Is the sole
purpose of the brushes to short out adjacent commutator bars, which
themselves serve as the armature windings? What would happen if you
dumped the brushes and just shorted the commutator bars? I'm no
motorhead, but I basically understand that one of these motors is really
an AC type modified to run on DC current. I've seen that mentioned on
the EVDL many times. It would be nice if I could expand all these
windings and bars into a simple diagram. Perhaps it's time to get a
motor theory book...
>
> This is the whole point of brush timing and interpoles; to *keep* the
> brushes at this special position, despite changes in motor RPM, voltage,
> and current.
>
> If you tried to add a second set of brushes at a different position (the
> position where minimal arcing moves to during regen), these brushes
> would short out armature coils with voltage on them! This would cause
> serious arcing and losses.


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Discussion Starter #8
Before going to the trouble of adding a tail shaft and alternator you might
consider how much energy you will get from regen this way. If the say 150A
output of the alternator is about 15A input to a 120V pack, and you get the
max all the way down the 1000 ft drop, say 4% grade, at say 50 mph, that is
about 4 3/4 mile, 0.095 hr, 1.4Ah, and 168Wh. That won't require much
torque from the motor, so won't slow you down very much.

For example, when I first drove my car with AC50 motor/Curtis 7501
controller, the regen was set very low and I only was getting about 15 - 20A
max regen (115V nominal pack). It did not slow the car very much at all.
After resetting the controller parameter for this, I get about 190A regen if
I completely release accelerator at 50 mph, and it slows the car rapidly,
but very controllable - on dry pavement, haven't tried that on snow/ice :^).
Since making this change about a year ago I have hardly used my mechanical
brakes. The regen is not very efficient, only a fraction of the vehicle's
kinetic energy is converted to energy into the pack. The highest I've seen
is 21% regen. That was going up a 6.3 mile 4.8% grade and coming back down,
with lots of switchbacks requiring repeated slowing, then accelerating
mostly by coasting. To clarify, that is Ah from regen back down was 21% of
Ah used going up. Energy was likely a bit higher due to difference in pack
voltage going up (sag) and coming down (higher due to current into pack),
but not much.

Regen is more typically around 10% +/- 3% for me, depending on how much
highway, hills, stopping. A controlled test on a mixture of highway, hills,
and secondary roads with stop signs, while datalogging distance and speed
with a gps datalogger, and pack voltage, current, and Ah used with
datalogging software for the TBS ExpertPro gauge, showed about 9.9% regen as
measured by Ah, and about 10.4% as measured by Wh (product of measured pack
voltage, current, and 1 second time interval between each measurement).
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Adding-Interpoles-to-a-ADC-motor-tp3061170p3063708.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #9
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> So let me try to understand a little motor theory
> here. Is the sole purpose of the brushes to short out adjacent commutator
> bars, which themselves serve as the armature windings?

No. All motors are actually AC. The brushes and commutator form a DPDT
switch that keeps reversing the connections to the coils to produce AC
in them. If you could connect a meter across one coil in the armature,
you'd see an alternating positive and negative voltage as it rotates.

> What would happen if you dumped the brushes and just shorted the
> commutator bars?

It wouldn't work on DC. But you could run it on AC as an induction motor.

The only kind of true DC motor is the homopolar motor, which has slip
rings instead of a commutator. It's an odd duck, and rarely used.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #10
On 28 Nov 2010 at 23:59, Chuck Hursch wrote:

> That was what was so amazing about Greg's Zapi SEM unit, it was
> smooth regen all the way to 0.

AC induction drives do this too. You really should try driving one some
time - they make series DC motors seem hopelessly crude by comparison. But
that's partly because they cost a lot more!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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